ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

The "other" ERE. Societal aspects of the ERE philosophy. Emergent change-making, scale-effects,...
jacob
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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by jacob »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 12:14 pm
... because I think of Green as being more Artsy/Intellectual than Community Oriented. ...
I'd go as far as green being more interested in form than function and orange being the opposite.

7Wannabe5
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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Right, so Yellow would integrate...
When old age shall this generation waste,
Thou shalt remain, in midst of other woe
Than ours, a friend to man, to whom thou say'st,
"Beauty is truth, truth beauty,—that is all
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know."

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by zbigi »

jacob wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:20 am
But Denmark and a few other northern European countries have almost if not completely "eliminated" Down's Syndrome which is a heritable condition which is testable during pregnancy, and most choose abortion. As such the causative gene strains are dying out.
Does that mean that, people that would be OK enough to have a relative normal life (incl. children of their own) get aborted because of the genetic tests?

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Down’s Syndrome is only heritable in very rare instances. It’s generally caused by a fairly common cell division error at conception which is correlated with maternal age. Therefore, it can’t be bred out of the human population. Incidents of this cell division error will spontaneously reappear at the rate of about 1 in 400 in any low tech environment.

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by jacob »

zbigi wrote:
Fri Dec 10, 2021 5:07 am
Does that mean that, people that would be OK enough to have a relative normal life (incl. children of their own) get aborted because of the genetic tests?
Well, the people never get born in the first place. Free pregnancy scans for (very many) genetic disorders are offered to everybody and as explained above most [Scandinavian] parents choose to abort in this case.
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Dec 10, 2021 6:07 am
Down’s Syndrome is only heritable in very rare instances.
Insofar the parent's don't have the syndrome, otherwise it is.

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by zbigi »

jacob wrote:
Fri Dec 10, 2021 9:35 am
Well, the people never get born in the first place. Free pregnancy scans for (very many) genetic disorders are offered to everybody and as explained above most [Scandinavian] parents choose to abort in this case.
I got that. It's just that previously I was under the impression that people choose to abort in cases where it's certain that the child will have severe problems. The info that is new to me is that most of these would-be children could actually be more or less fine, and parents are choosing to abort because of relatively small odds of the child having serious Down's syndrome symptoms.

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by jacob »

zbigi wrote:
Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:44 pm
I got that. It's just that previously I was under the impression that people choose to abort in cases where it's certain that the child will have severe problems.
Not sure I follow. It's certain (from the test) when the syndrome is present. A person would most likely grow up with various ongoing medical problems, a shorter lifespan, and a fairly low likelihood of independent living.

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Men with Down’s Syndrome are almost always infertile and women with Down’s Syndrome often miscarry. If a woman with Down’s Syndrome does carry to term, given that the father would have to not have the syndrome, odds that baby would carry extra chromosome would be 50/50. Odds that baby would be female and in possession of extra chromosome, and therefore potentially fertile herself would only be 1/4. IRL, it only rarely happens. Happenstance error in division of chromosomes at conception of child with two parents with only two chromosomes themselves is by far and away most likely path of incidence.

Anyways, the general point I was attempting to make in OP was that there will always be a proportion of human population currently or permanently not fully competent to independently put on own oxygen mask. So, libertarian individualist stance at Orange actually assumes such responsibilities fall back to Family/Church at Blue. My question would concern whether there is analogous assumption made at Yellow?

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by zbigi »

jacob wrote:
Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:06 pm
Not sure I follow. It's certain (from the test) when the syndrome is present. A person would most likely grow up with various ongoing medical problems, a shorter lifespan, and a fairly low likelihood of independent living.
I inferred from what you said earlier, that many (most?) of people born with DS have had children of their in the past. That follows from what you wrote because, if they didn't have their children of their own, then the decision on whether or not to abort them wouldn't affect the spread of the faulty gene in the population (because they wouldn't pass it on anyway).

Consequently, if it's true that many people with the DS gene fault managed to have children, then their quality of life or ability to live independently must not have been that bad in many cases. And that to me was news - I thought that only the cases with the worst prognoses get aborted.

However, the info provided by 7Wannabe5 contradicts what you wrote and thus basically invalidates the premises of my whole line of reasoning :)

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by jacob »

I think this whole tangent started as a straw man: "What is the yellow or ERE solution at societal scale to something rather unlikely?" Uh yes ... we'll cross that bridge when we get there.

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

No, I wasn’t trying to be argumentative. I wrote the OP shortly after I had spent a couple weeks teaching at a county facility for severely impaired students up to age 24. I was thinking about my theory that the gender voting gap in my “purple” state had a lot to do with what individuals observed on a daily basis at their place of employment. Men are more likely to work with stuff and women are more likely to work with other people. So, women are more likely to think that there are a lot of other humans who do or will need help putting on their oxygen masks.

I was thinking about actual humans with whom I had interacted including a very sweet well-mannered young woman with Down’s Syndrome who ate lunch with me and a cute feisty 8 year old girl with Zika caused impairments who wouldn’t let me help her with her pull-ups in the bathroom because she was bound and determined to do it herself. I was thinking about how nobody who works in IT or Finance is likely to see all the humans who need a lot of help, or even those who are functioning below the median, on a daily basis. So, there can be a big difference when imagining a model based on, for instance, a community of 150 humans, depending on your experience. I was wondering about a model based on random selection of humans from general population. How many of the 150 would be dependent on others for oxygen mask?

OTOH, after working with the severely impaired students for a couple weeks, I started working with 7th and 8th graders in rough urban setting. Attendance at this school was very spotty. A lot of kids were frequently suspended and many chose to not show up. One day I was attempting to teach a group about the science behind a destructive TikTok trick which demonstrated how to cut a pen in half using the ear elastic pulled off a disposable mask. So, I played a video showing a similar technique used at construction site, and learned that one of my 14 year old students had only attended school twice in last couple weeks because he was working construction. So, current work force numbers may not be inclusive of all those who could possibly contribute.

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Population of U.S. is 330 million. Approximately 95 million full-time employed private sector and 20 million full-time employed public sector. 70 million Social Security retired. 73 million children. 26 million part-time workers. 20 million college students. 11 million stay at home parents. 8 million long-term disabled. 3 million short-term disabled. Median age of full-time worker is 42. Median weekly salary full-time worker iis $1001 =$25/hr. !st quartile weekly salary full-time worker is $680. 3rd Quartile is $1540.

So, Level 0 Green, Art History major now working part-time as barista and part-time as activist is probably earning right around first quartile weekly wage, so is actually at around 75th percentile for current productivity in general population. Since her Activism work may also contribute beyond level indicated by $15/hr wage and she is likely to be much younger than median worker age of 42, this is definitely somebody you would choose for your team or 150 member community over random draw.

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by white belt »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sat Dec 11, 2021 9:58 am
So, Level 0 Green, Art History major now working part-time as barista and part-time as activist is probably earning right around first quartile weekly wage, so is actually at around 75th percentile for current productivity in general population. Since her Activism work may also contribute beyond level indicated by $15/hr wage and she is likely to be much younger than median worker age of 42, this is definitely somebody you would choose for your team or 150 member community over random draw.
This strikes me as a Green comment. Every person is valuable and special in their own way. We’re all unique snowflakes and all that. I’m under the impression you feel the need to defend green.

I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make. Of course I’d rather have someone who has a baseline level of competence, physical capability, and mental capacity like level 0 green in my 150 member community over random draw that could include the elderly, children, and disabled. That’s not to say the latter can’t contribute at all and shouldn’t be incorporated into a society, just that I’d prefer the former if there is work to be done in a low energy intensity future (probably an Orange perspective).

The original thread is asking for a green WL scale. In other words, how to appeal to that level 0 (or any) green person. What is the friction in the barista’s life that might push her to seek an alternative? Will she even individually be open to alternatives, or will she only explore alternatives that come from within her community? Can she even be reached individually?

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by white belt »

Greenfield wrote: 11/2011 Started to get into sustainability and began to pay attention to things like trash, resource consumption, and growing food. I started to learn about how my actions affect the earth, other people, and animals from documentaries and books.

02/2012 Decided to take action on what I learned and began a transformation into a healthier, more natural lifestyle and refused to make bad influences on earth. There was no moment of clarity or significant occurrence, just a realization through education that my simple daily actions were causing a lot of destruction to the earth, to fellow humans both near and far, and to the creatures that I share the earth with.
I will refer again to the above timeline.

Presumably there is some green level that corresponds to Greenfield in the first sentence of 11/2011. I feel like your example level 0 green barista/activist might already have high awareness of issues in the world. I think level 0 green resonates with the first sentence. I’m not sure what level would resonate with the second sentence. It seems green would be more interested in how everyone’s actions affect the earth.

I don’t think the transition Greenfield made 3 months later is a common one in green circles either. I would think the typical action is for green to “get organized” and “get community involved” while lamenting that individually they can’t make any difference.

Maybe I’m wrong to categorize Greenfield as coming from green, but he definitely gives off activist and community vibes now.

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Well, you could try to convince/encourage Green Level 0 that $600/week is enough to support her and a disabled 8 year old, catch up on student loan, and save 50% for retirement. Or you could try to convince her to improve skills so she could earn more and then be able to do this. You won’t be able to convince her based on model that doesn’t also provide for support of disabled 8 year old.

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Orange is Progress. Green is Progressive. So, there’s going to be a good deal of opposition to “Degrowth” from both of these levels. For example, my INTJ scientist who is also a socialist BIL threw out the term “neo-Malthusian” the last time I tried to talk with him about the topic and became quite livid when I suggested that the Cuban people were doing pretty well due to individual ingenuity. So, I definitely wouldn’t recommend Catton to him.
“white belt” wrote: This strikes me as a Green comment. Every person is valuable and special in their own way. We’re all unique snowflakes and all that. I’m under the impression you feel the need to defend green.
Yeah, it might be the case that I am defending Green because I am currently too ill to work on my level Yellow project. I am projecting the possibility that the likes of William Catton would throw me off the boat along with all the extra babies who might be born in Africa if we continue to provide aid, etc. I feel this way even though my real life experience is that grouchy old conservative or “conservative” guys will continue to drop off treats at my door and offer other means of support even if I spend the whole day in my pajamas and fall into low grade fever exhausted sleep in the middle of sexting.

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by jacob »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sat Dec 11, 2021 6:53 am
I was thinking about my theory that the gender voting gap in my “purple” state had a lot to do with what individuals observed on a daily basis at their place of employment. Men are more likely to work with stuff and women are more likely to work with other people.
IIRC, the gender gap in MBTI is something like 70/30 in terms of thinkers and feelers in contemporary society. Feelers tend to be people-oriented (green and blue) and Thinkers tend to be results- or task-oriented (red and orange). So there's definitely a constraint on the acceptable solution-methods.

(It's conceivable that women being 70% F or that F deals with people rather than results, etc. are culturally determined but those are the cards we've been dealt.)

And so ... being people-oriented or people-concerned, we get ...
white belt wrote:
Sat Dec 11, 2021 11:27 am
I don’t think the transition Greenfield made 3 months later is a common one in green circles either. I would think the typical action is for green to “get organized” and “get community involved” while lamenting that individually they can’t make any difference.
... where I'd highlight that not only is there a concern to include people but also to insist that "individuals" can neither make a difference to the world nor to themselves in terms of actual results. (This parallels how individuals complain about how it's almost impossible to get results in a group because the group is holding them back.)

I suspect a lot of this is a blowback ideological reaction(*) to how Orange sacrificed a lot of people in the name of results, e.g. abusing workers, poverty, etc. Not because Green is fundamentally opposed to achieving actual results. But Green is fundamentally opposed to people talking about individually achievable results because it triggers an Orange-antigen. That is, all it takes for the worst excesses of capitalism to return is for someone in our circle starting to take individual action that improves their lot over the rest of us.

(*) Just like Orange, especially the libertarian free agent ideology, is an ideological blowback to Blue's destruction of human resources/talent/desire for individual expression by demanding that people remain in the position they're born into.

Perhaps the way to motivate would be:
Orange: "You should be able to put on an oxygen mask so you can take care of yourself and not be burden to the community."
Green: "You should be able to put an oxygen mask on another person, nevermind yourself." (This could conceivably break the consumer-spell of demanding that "they" or "the system" change to fix it.)

Either that or the choices have to be in a way that somehow does not "raise" oneself above the rest. E.g. zero-waste as an artsy lifestyle process that has the side-effect of reducing personal impact.

PS: I'll note that I'm using a very stereotypical language that paints everything in black and white. However, not doing so leaves any insight rather vague or ill-defined.

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

jacob wrote:Orange: "You should be able to put on an oxygen mask so you can take care of yourself and not be burden to the community."
Green: "You should be able to put an oxygen mask on another person, nevermind yourself." (This could conceivably break the consumer-spell of demanding that "they" or "the system" change to fix it.)
As an XNTP female, I agree. it also seems to me that Yellow should be "Do both with perspective on complexity." For instance, FIRE would be rote Orange towards Yellow, and donating 1 jacob/year to the Malala Fund or fostering a child out of juvenile penal system, or converting an asphalt garbage dump vacant lot into a community permaculture would be rote Green towards Yellow*. What I mean by "perspective on complexity" at Yellow would be something like the wisdom to know whether heading a little more Orange or a little more Green at any given juncture or in any given context/environment is in alignment with long-term overall best interest. IOW, knowing when/where selfishness is a virtue and when/where "eh, not so much."

* Super Hard Core Rote Do Both would be like that graph AxelHeyst posted elsewhere, but instead of just lowering your expenses to 1 jafi instantly, you would have to do that AND 1jafi of community or global community work. The reason why I suggest 1:1 proportion is because slightly more than half the population of the world still gets by on less that 1 jafi ppp and, obviously, most of these humans are not likely in possession of the skills that could provide for highest quality of life at 1 jafi.

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by jacob »

On another note, the transition would happen when Green has reached the limit of its competence and played out. Orange has been ditto once it's been sitting at the optimization stage (WL5) for a while.

This is just to fix the end-point.

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by Blackjack »

So if we are playing pure SD here, I think the pure green is a level that has transcended and included the orange level. So we can talk to greens in orange talk and they will grok what we are saying, as they have been there before, though we have to perfectly carrot it in a way that is more community oriented and in a way that is helping others actualize as well. I think we should entice on the transitional feelings of orange to green, as this is is what I think is most enticing to them about ERE.

So I think the pitch should be something like: “hey green, I know money isn’t fulfilling, but we both know having a little is a necessary evil, and thus you are probably working a job that may only be X% green, when you would like to be doing “the work” in a place that is 100% green. I think I can give you a set of skills that will allow your life to be at least 90% “the work” or 90% green, allowing you to do the community oriented things you like. And we can do it in a community oriented way (see the small “mastermind” occurring by some of the more green people here). I think we need to pull some of the green or yellow people here (who are comfortable selling to greens) to push a group class with a self actualizing group hierarchy (I think greens love this, don’t make a dominator hierarchy, greenies don’t like these because they remind them of businesses) which can help move people towards the ERE goals in a way that helps them self actualize the other parts of their life as well (generally helping others and equity, etc).

I spent a good amount of 2019 in one of the large hubs of the Authentic Relating community (a small piece of what I’ve only recently learned used to be the thriving hub of the Integral Center) as well as most of the last 5 years embedded in communities across the green spectrum (mostly somatic / movement related) and the people that fell most green on the spectrum all still had menial jobs and often still struggled to make ends meet, despite the green-ness. I expect that some of them tend to be blue-green, but even the orange-greens were usually unfulfilled tech guys or sales people or successful business owners who had been at the top of orange (or high enough) and understood that it wasn’t fulfilling, so went to these communities to seek fulfillment elsewhere. So I think we pull at those strings, compassionately, and say “hey, I’ve been there. I think I understand. Come into our group and learn with us and others how to survive off very little, even if you have a lot, so you can spend your time working on things like equity, and food safety, and helping others, both for their safety and self actualization, and more.”

The greens who had done this the most effectively actually spent very little money, and generally had turned their green work into something that generated enough capital to survive.

As already may have been mentioned in the thread, I think we try to sell these people semi-ERE or the version where you have the skills to live off very little, but maybe not need to spend 5 years accumulating wealth, because I think many of the greens have been through the orange taste, and it’s traumatized them or just felt empty and hopeless to them now. So I think they won’t want to “Pay Caesar his due” if they have already spent the last 10+ years paying those dues (even if they spent the money frivolously before they understood this way to have a relationship with money).

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