Drawing Agency

The "other" ERE. Societal aspects of the ERE philosophy. Emergent change-making, scale-effects,...
daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by daylen »

Civil suggesting civilization which implies a meshing of many different cultures. Though, also may suggest the un-meshing of more isolated/indigenous cultures that do not seem to "align" with the global attractors/repulsors. Perhaps some necessary tension there with the idealist green crowd against blue idealizations of their version of "One".

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

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Linking up with another split of the social attractor space, namely the temperaments - idealists, intellectuals, artisans, guardians. Which could come into play somehow at yet another resolution.

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by daylen »

Then perhaps something like this could provide a template for quadra flow, temperament flow, or some other flow involving a four-dimensional split of the space. I bet organizations, cities, and bio-regions could come into play somehow. Though, such diagrams may be getting into the "hard to understand without an hour introduction" neighborhood.

Image

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by daylen »

This version is simpler and provides more opportunity for cross-interaction.

Image

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by daylen »

Here is a new post on my blog that elaborates a bit on some of the content in this thread. Includes the diagram that I couldn't fit here earlier due to size limitations.
https://daylenbonner.com/2021/09/29/att ... movements/

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

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Image

Here is an updated version of the model with points & frames being internal and maps & structures being external. Thus the new type hypotheses are..
Se - externalizing structures
Si - internalizing structures
Ne - externalizing points
Ni - internalizing points
Te - externalizing maps
Ti - internalizing maps
Fe - externalizing frames
Fi - internalizing frames

From here, functional chains can be visualized in the form of projections. That is, a point can intersect part of a frame at the edge of an agent to project out a scope in which maps may suggest some structure (or the inverse from structure to point). Construction occurs when points are joined to frames forming an internal fit or when maps are joined to structures forming an external fit. Actuation forming a bridge between points and structures with intermediate frame-map combinations. This all falls under the "Agent" or "Groundless" sub-nodes in the "Volution" tree. With the "Ground" adding in measures related to space, time, scale, and/or closure to make sense of distances in a way that several agents can agree.

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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by jacob »

This seems like it's getting close to where you could somehow draw the stacks for each type, e.g. TiNeSiFe.

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

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A static representation could be drawn like this with arrow thickness indicating position in stack..

Image

A dynamical gif showing accumulation or relative changes in size would be cool. For this, a system of differential equations would be essential. I'll look into it.

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Re: Drawing Agency

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Points and Structures seem simple but are hard to explain. Frames and Maps seem complex but are relatively easy to explain. <- this can be explained through neuroscience or through imagining yourself as a flatland agent in the drawing.

Neuroscience: Sensation and iNtuition are forms of perception. The brain is kinda like a hologram inside a hologram. The reptilian layer contains routes projecting out to the limbic layer which contain routes projecting out to the neo-cortical layer. With higher layers being more perceptual. Perhaps this can be explained as there being more surface area to code for shallow structure or many this-that relations. With deep relationships being judged from the routing between this-that relations. This-that relations seem simple, though the translation of points to and from the structure of all that seems to enclose "you" or in which "you" enclose is far from simple. The routing of this-that's seems complex as it requires a substantial amount of energy/effort(#), though the routes are not as dependent upon which this is coupled to which that and thus is less reliant on getting this or that right. Routing can be understood between agents with minimal sharing of this or that.

Flatland: As an agent in flatland you can look internally or externally, and at any angle. In either direction, there exist an infinite number of different vantage points in which to see a series of gaps overlaying/underlying a continuous entity. It may be assumed for now that agents in flatland can auto-communicate with each other without affecting any agents "view". In doing so, agents will tend to navigate the continuous structure or point with ease but struggle to describe the structure or point due to the blockades in the way. The blockades being the external maps or internal frames. By comparison the blockades seem complex when attempting to communicate the route between different sections. Though, the routing between sections isn't all that difficult to express when widely spread across all angles as then looking in a general direction is good enough when demonstrating particular sections of the blockade while routing to other agents.

The sections of the blockade you can "see" are denoted, and the gaps of the blockade are connoted. Though, like shadows in QM(&), their existence is necessary to hint at the overlaying structure and underlying point of existence.

(#) That is, metabolic activity.

(&) Thanks to Jacob for recommending David Deutsch's book "The Fabric of Reality". Great book.
Last edited by daylen on Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Drawing Agency

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Does this in any way suggest a hierarchy in that S is bigger than N, because S contains N. Or would there be an inverse (bijective) mapping (e.g. x to 1/x)?

I do agree with the suggestion that AQAL's mapping of the subjective interior suggests Wilber simply mapping his own INFJ stack. See https://community.integrallife.com/t/in ... -type/4657

This was somewhat of a bummer to realize but it would explain a lot in terms of what kind of inner world any one can realize and how easy it is for them to do so. For example, Ni dominants come almost pre-installed with vision-logic which under AQAL is supposed to build on something closer to Piaget (conop, formop, vision-logic, transpersonal). Conversely, for an INTJ, Fe is pretty buried in the shadow and as such unitive experiences may simply be way out of reach.

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

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I suppose this would come down to whether or not the Point is actually a point. That is, is the internal continuity an infinite singularity or an n-sphere of non-zero dimensionality? As if the point is an infinite singularity then it would appear the same in any direction though would at times be covered by a frame. If the point/blob has non-zero dimensionality then it may appear as partially covered [or partially revealed]. A unitive experience could be that in which the point-structure bijection is realized. As then in is out and out is in, while stuff is still happening. The stuff happening being the realization of map-frame liquidity. Though, it can go further now that it has been said.. as the liquidity can become the backdrop.. and so forth and so on. Similar to how the witness may spawn in a state of extreme distress as a disassociation limit.. then reemerge with what is witnessed.. which can in turn be witnessed.. and so forth.

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

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The bijection can be realized through the ONE or the MANY. As a structure can be reduced to a point or a point expanded to a structure. That is, existence is composed of many things acting as one or one thing acting as many.

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Re: Drawing Agency

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Image

An updated actuator where external and internal fits align. Higher-order constructions like polarization, harmonization, and unionization also need re-conceptualization or dropped. The overlap of point, frame, map, and structure indicates a state of null personality.

Some possible variations between actuators occur through the number of map sides matched to structure sides (e.g. the above drawing has one side match upwards). This can be extended to maps and structures with any number of sides (i.e. polygons of nth degree) with the number of sides corresponding to the dimensionality or something. Internal fits consisting of frames and points are always circular or of zeroth-degree... because why not.. and also because internal measurement along dimensions is hard, if not impossible to make absolute (i.e. what is the equivalent of a protractor or clock in your mind? .. how would you explain it to another agent?).

Some interesting things can happen as the point approaches a corner, as it can never quite reach in the case of a zero-dimensional point without the agent partially leaving the map and structure. With the limit towards a corner being like the internalization of part of the basis(+).. or something like that. In which case, the full basis of reality can be hinted upon though synthesis of corners during actuation. With the caveat that the complete number of corners is never really known for sure.

(+) That is, minimal coordination system between dimensions.

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

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Having a low dimensional map relative to a structure can make it more challenging to find corners, like so..

Image
Last edited by daylen on Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Drawing Agency

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A high dimensional map relative to a structure with spiky edges can prevent exploration of certain corners, like so..

Image

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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by jacob »

This suggests you'll be adding another framework beyond what's already there. Otherwise, the shapes [of the outer perimeter] make no sense(?)

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

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Yeah, so that is where the Groud sub-tree of the overall Volution tree comes in dealing with agreeable measures in space, time, scale, and closure. The Agent sub-tree assumes the existence of protractors, clocks, and so forth but avoids their specification (i.e. has no way to see what they are or reference them directly).

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

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Another way to think about it is that the Ground tree is concerned with continuous transformations and strict locality, whereas the Agent tree is concerned with punctuation and non-locality. In the Agent tree space, time, scale, and closure must be constructed from changes in topology/geometry.

Though, of course, this all starts in in-fold on itself when drawings are considered to be in space, time, scale, or closure. Fueling paradox that are interesting and force careful thought.
Last edited by daylen on Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by jacob »

WRT groud and avoiding specification. Therein lies the struggle. Bateson and Kegan both have their abstract constructors going to infinity: Kegan6, Kegan7, ... Kegan100... Bateson72 and so on. But what do they mean?

Construct-aware-land seems to be about defining things in terms of what they're not---(This is where I'm still stuck.)---and so it's already hard to talk about Kegan5 (and the equivalent Bateson) and Kegan6 is impossible for the lack of language. At some point this [constructor] needs to 'translate' to something. An example of a 6th person perspective, for example, what does that even mean?

Add: What is meaning anyway? Still a mere exercise in typology?

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Re: Drawing Agency

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Further in the back of my mind this is all just an exercise in generating paradox. It feels as though before Kegan5 can be transcended, some of the key paradoxes need to be tied together somehow. That is, what does the knot look like?

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