Drawing Agency

The "other" ERE. Societal aspects of the ERE philosophy. Emergent change-making, scale-effects,...
7Wannabe5
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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Yes, but a 3 year old might keep counting ( matching number words to apples) well beyond 3 if she doesn’t understand that she is to count “each” apple only once, because she may have more number words than apples, so why not keep handing them round?

If the red circles are fungible, their identity as objects doesn’t matter to the count, although their existence in defining the potential for position may.

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by daylen »

Yes, so this is where you can start to have the world feel like it is turning inside-out. Due to fits being relative to the entropy of points and frames, you may start to switch points with frames through meta-attention. Perhaps you start to wonder if your direction of containment is all backwards.. that is, perhaps the cosmos is contained in each particle.. hence the phrase: the ocean is in a drop and a drop is in the ocean.

Oh, and yes, the framing of red can be discarded if color is irrelevant, leading to an absence of the fourth phase.

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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by jacob »

daylen wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 3:22 pm
Here now with the actuator and no arrows indicating push/pull.

Image
I'm getting close(r) to "declaring Eureka" here :)

I think directional arrows will be useful to show [the direction of] push or pull... insofar that's possible? (I'm not at that level of grokking yet.)

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by daylen »

I am still struggling with this myself, as the link I made between MBTI and [ (push,pull), (points,frames), (in,out) ] was sorta out of the blue, and so I have been piecing it together here and there. I will rant for a little while to see what happens.

From a bird's eye view of communication and activity, you may start to notice that different agents tend to signal and act slightly differently (relative to how another species might). Let's say a set of agents do an activity together then communicate about it. Some agents may attend to many points of high-entropy sensations/intuitions that are hard to communicate completely. Some agents may attend to many frames of low-entropy thoughts/feelings that are easier to communicate to near completion. Then such exchanges may tend to polarize(*) if the fits are not in alignment, or the exchange may tend to harmonize if the fits align.

(*) Hence I am now using second-person.
Last edited by daylen on Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:39 pm, edited 3 times in total.

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by daylen »

Tendencies (split into positive and negative expressions when each function is dominating and derives from blindness system in stack theory)

pull points in
positive - distinctive tracking of objects
negative - conflating external systems
pull points out
positive - distinctive extension of objects
negative - conflating internal systems
push points out
positive - distinctive modulation of objects
negative - conflating internal systems
push points in
positive - distinctive averaging of objects
negative - conflating external systems
pull frames in
positive - distinctive tracking of systems
negative - conflating external objects
pull frames out
positive - distinctive extension of systems
negative - conflating internal objects
push frames out
positive - distinctive modulation of systems
negative - conflating internal objects
push frames in
positive - distinctive averaging of systems
negative - conflating external objects

Such conflations can become more fine-grained if we combine perception with judgement in an agent. That is, we group ways of handling points and frames where each is a function, one moving externally and the other moving internally.

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by daylen »

Here in the [negative] shadows, objects are linked to points as they may require an intimate relationship when handled by agents, and systems are linked to frames as they may not require such intimacy.

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by daylen »

We could also allow internal objects to be subjects and internal systems to be paradigms if that helps keep relations above straight. Then external objects would just be objects and external systems would just be systems.

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by daylen »

I tried to draw a more elaborate diagram, but I surpassed the upload limit of ImgBB. This encapsulates the gist of what I was shooting for.

Image

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by daylen »

Another view:

push out - modulate objects/systems
push in - average subjects/paradigms
pull out - extend subjects/paradigms
pull in - track objects/systems

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by daylen »

Then I suspect that once a paradigm/system is introduced that groks K5 enough to be taught in reasonable time that the culture will shift below our feet, making it harder to teach [as is] in the next generation as interpretations branch. Or perhaps the paradigm/system can spawn teaching protocols that multiply and can cross-understand each other rapidly, leading to an evolutionary and involutionary endurance. The teaching of K5 perhaps signified by the enduring blur of subject/object induced from alternation between paradigm and system when linked up with prior fits held by student.

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by daylen »

A teacher/student relationship attempting to break into K5 may require follow up to resolve paradoxes arising to be pushed/pulled into crippling confusion. As a powerful paradigm/system may lead to volatility. Thus raises a prior concern over gradual versus punctual changes in evolution/involution. From the inside or outside, a punctuation in equilibrium may appear as a gradual shift and a gradual shift may appear as a punctuation in equilibrium. This, in some sense, breaks open the modern theory of evolution based upon genetic information/entropy which extends into organism, population, and species level analysis. As the containment can invert and thus imply a causal reversal from macro to micro, hence cosmic teleology. All/One/None of the cosmos combining into Kosmos.

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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by jacob »

I realized my hopes for this approach are very positivist in nature. That eventually a "constructor" can be abstracted and subsequently applied to the highest known stage in order to see the next stage (what's beyond Create). I have two worries in that regard.
1) It might not be possible to bring it within one's ken anyway. Same problem with Bateson's scheme.
2) There may be truths that this grammar can not express (Goedel's incompleteness theorem and all that).

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by daylen »

I think there is indeed a need for some open-ended discovery and a negativist turn in nurture. As one way to think of the implications of Godel's work is as the existence of a record that will break the record player. Imagine the agent as the record player, a frame as a record, and a point as the needle reading the record into music. Spin a record for a while to see what "inconsistencies" or "disharmonies" emerge in the music. As the student may begin to stumble upon mushrooms blooming somewhere on the ground of their forest and investigate the roots they latch onto, initiating their own shadow practice. Whether or not the negative, deconstructionist work will invert into a positive striving is hard to say as their direction may branch from that of teacher. Perhaps the nugget of savior being the meditation upon point/fame inversion to scatter notions of strict causality. Hence, the causal state as the ground into non-dual experience of duality. Though, I may be a broken record. :)

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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by jacob »

What I mean in particular is that the language that has been invented might be inadequate to express exactly what's being sought? How can one know that is not so? (It may no longer be "space-filling" at C7).

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by daylen »

That is a pickle. It does seem as though what is [implicitly] being sought at C6 creation or "unionize" is something like infinite inter-connection of the MANY. Though, once you feel as if you can grasp the MANY, then perhaps you wonder what it is like to grasp for the ONE and the NONE. That is, the next step may involve integration of MANY/ONE/NONE in some sorta "paradoxical" concoction that resolves questions of life and death.

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by daylen »

As if you are a constructor which has become aware of the deconstruction embedded in each construction, you may put yourself on the knife's edge of a meaningful and meaningless existence.

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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by daylen »

Neuroscientifically, the None correlating with near cessation of brain activity, the One correlating with full-brain gamma wave activity, and the Many being somewhere in-between the two.

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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by daylen »

Sometimes accidents induce/exduce just the right amount of turbulence in the creative field. In an attempted alignment with Axel Heyst's recent comments on "Execution Turbulence", here are some basic maps that start to integrate cold/laminar flow and hot/turbulent flow with NONE/MANY/ONE. In my experience, as the brain starts to cease activity, the flow of the in and the out starts to blur and become "distant". As if the mind is emptying until the bird's eye "view" of the chaotic fields recede into the "background" to become nothing but infinite potential energy. This self starts to feel "circular" or "spherical" though the dimensionality seems infinite, a perfectly symmetrical cold flow. On the other hand you may find yourself in the mist or fog of rampant energy expenditure whereby the in and out is flooded with eddies of turbulent breakage. As if the infinite self has collapsed itself into finite dimensional containers of topological indeterminacy. Attractors and repulsors or prior/posterior boundaries of the self are realized in an asymmetric witnessing. An alignment of the many asymmetries with a foregrounding nothingness may lead to glimpses of oneness, of which, no "map" can possibly make complete "sense". As the experience transcends any prior/posterior held notions of "self". Though, the self always returns as no self is forever just out of reach and tends to escape grasp with firm intention/extension.

Cold or Laminar Flow
Image

Hot or Turbulent Flow
Image

An imperfect approximation of the Cold/Hot approaching into One.
Image

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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by jacob »

daylen wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 4:49 pm
Neuroscientifically, the None correlating with near cessation of brain activity, the One correlating with full-brain gamma wave activity, and the Many being somewhere in-between the two.
The East (Buddhism..) seeks the elimination of the self/ego/inner-voice [as salvation]. Hence endless meditation exercises ... (none)

The West wants to join the ego with the one---either by endless blue worshiping or by pursuing grand unified orange theories (one) which are an introspectionist drive to eliminate as much need for sensory input as possible. E.g. ideally a GUT would take one unit-measure (say speed of light) to calibrate things and after that you're good to go.

Since these are both extremes I feel(<- yeah, I'm using that word) that the effective margin action happens at the many-level. In particular, something-something about "effective resolution" is a very good way to make infinities countable and doable.

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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by daylen »

@Jacob Yeah, the edge of the many is where the interesting action happens! Also aligns with your post on the other thread about each agent striving for ideally one skill or "meta"-activity in which they can access the warmish horizon of the creative field along with a gradation of supporting skills. Such an estimation would then start to really blur the line between individual agents and the collective, hence the following diagram with sublte distinctions that could perhaps start to provide more practical examples that you could use in future presentations of ERE-philosophy.

I am calling it a "Civil Map" for now but my thinking with the squares was that it helps to distinguish from agents while also potentially linking up with the quadras. Where [ alpha:(pull), beta:(pull frames,push points), cappa:(push), delta:(push frames,pull points) ] could potentially suggest flow patterns through and around [ institutions:(objects,systems) ] that may correlate with the flow patterns of individual agents on another scale (i.e. linking institutions with fit complexes). Anyway, getting a bit outta hand here. :)

Image

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