Drawing Agency

The "other" ERE. Societal aspects of the ERE philosophy. Emergent change-making, scale-effects,...
daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by daylen »

Here we have a demonstration of excess push and pull. Perhaps some kind of dual-sided power-curve can be derived from this in dealing with competency. Interesting connection may be formed between enneagram1, arms, and these arm like extensions from unconscious competence to unconscious incompetence.

Image

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by daylen »

So, fit(counting)=frame/point has a domain of counting methods/contexts and a range of (0,1). May also be rearranged into fit=point/frame with range of (0,infinity).

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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by daylen »

The foundations get more interesting when you start to consider that there are different kinds of infinities, some bigger than others. Mathematicians are still dealing with the implications of this today.

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by daylen »

For instance, here is a system in which a counting method may seem apparent. If I ask you to count how many ways the dots in the first row could be rearranged then how would you think to do it?

Image

One way to rearrange may be indicated by the second row, but does the bottom row count as a different arrangement than the second row? You may say it depends on what rules I give you (i.e. context). Also you may notice that the two red dots can be switched without the row seeming any different, so does that count differently? This is where the intuitive notion of "hidden information" comes from, because I could make a "hidden" cut/distinction between the two red dots if I wanted to.
Last edited by daylen on Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

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Extending this we can then begin to contemplate the air in front of us (presumably :) ). The entropy is effectivly infinite as there are an uncountable(*) number of ways in which the air molecules(+) could be switched or rearranged such that you did not notice. It is basically "hidden" and thus transparent to us. Part of the water we swim in. An ether of nothingness.

(*) By any "human" anyways..

(+) Or some larger chunk.

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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by jacob »

daylen wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 12:48 pm
Extending this we can then begin to contemplate the air in front of us (presumably :) ). The entropy is effectivly infinite as there are an uncountable(*) number of ways in which the air molecules could be switched or rearranged such that you did not notice. It is basically "hidden" and thus transparent to us. Part of the water we swim in. An ether of nothingness.

(*) By any "human" anyways..
No, if you're talking air molecules, which are all fungible, the entropy of the phase space(*) (position and velocity) is a countable quantity. The distribution in phase space is what defines the temperature (and vice versa). The connection between statistical mechanics and thermodynamics is essentially in calculating those microscopic distributions and connecting them to macroscopic quantities like temperature, pressure, etc. E.g. the Boltzmann distribution shows how many molecules are in a given range of speed for a given temperature. Different particles have different distributions according to their microphysics (e.g. Bosons vs Fermions).

(*) The phase space resolution is not unlimited.

An analogy would be number of votes for a set of politicians in a democracy. The votes are all fungible because they are anonymous. The percentages summarize the distribution of the total [ensemble] vote.

Insofar the mapping reflects some kind of reality I would similarly expect to reach a point where distinctions don't matter. For sure meaning depends on context, but it would be useless (I think) to say it depends 100% on context. For example, the word "depend" is used a few times in this post ... and each time it functionally means the same. In a language words are often fungible/rarely have more than a few different meanings which are almost always determined by context except when they're not ...

Fruit flies like a banana.
Time flies like an arrow.

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

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Aw yes, I figured something would give eventually. I wouldn't say it depends 100% on context but is relative to how much of the context you count versus the content.. infinite regression. :)

If you try to isolate the system it doesn't connect to anything, and if you try to connect it with everything it doesn't really mean anything. And thus here we lie back at the topological starting line.

Hence, I wonder if it isn't so much the system that matters as does the dialectic in system creation where this system is just merely an anthropocentric attraction making use of our ability to imagine circular and linear constructs, while counting with our fingers. Counting only tends to make sense because of our human-ness.

Though, this would then sorta scramble the striving for something like Kegan6 as the dialectic isn't really being embodied/owned. Just another attempt at cutting through pre-existing sections of the fabric.

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

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Once you grasp the "content", you can then do a switch-a-roo to make it context relative to your new "content" (i.e. "elsewhere"). Once you grasp how to "count", you can then reach for the "uncountable".

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Re: Drawing Agency

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On one hand we have something like an instrumentalist position in which we may trust our observations/sensations when extended with instruments, and on the other hand an idealist position in which we trust our observations/sensations of instruments.

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Re: Drawing Agency

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Perhaps there is an NJ attraction towards yellow, adhering more closely to an instrumentalist position, and an NP attraction towards green/turquoise that adheres more closely to idealism.

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Re: Drawing Agency

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Interesting areas of intersection being QM and cosmology where we have massive instruments and relatively simple observations/sensations using such instruments. Hence the association of turquoise with the "paradoxes" or "complications" that can emerge from various "interpretations" of the "experiments". Though, at the end of the day, something needs to get done. :)

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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by jacob »

daylen wrote:
Sat Sep 04, 2021 9:29 am
@Jacob I thought the diagrams you used were basically just a slight transformation of this system. The major distinction being that the arrows demonstrated better the interconnected potential of high-entropy concepts/intuitions. Also the major theme of the talk was to increase this entropy by presumably pushing points in based on what points can be pushed out. :)
I'm beginning to suspect that the source of my [ongoing] confusion is that your "pointer" is not an actual arrow but a literal point: The arrowhead without the shaft or feathers.

Maybe this is a ridiculous generational misunderstanding? :geek: Using an overhead projector or talking about a poster, a pointer would be a literal stick (vector) that the presenter would hold. I remember when [almost] everybody moved onto laser pointers and rendering the vector/stick invisible and replacing it with a bright red or green spot. This (to me) made it harder to follow. Instead of having the person connected to poster via a stick, one now had to locate a green point dancing around.

Moving onto zoom presentations takes the person doing the pointing completely out of the equation. Instead a mouse pointer zips around the screen. It still "shows a point" but it's a different kind of pointer compared to the stick of the dinosaur method.

Another way to point would be as if a certain "area" would change color as the presenter was talking about it .. e.g. flash green. I suspect such "flashing" would be closer to what the brain actually does.

So are we literally on different pages wrt "pointing technology" here?

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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Humans match before they count and they fit ( hand to mouth) before they match. Fitting (or grasping then fitting) might be the embodiment of self-care. Matching might be the embodiment of other care (food sharing or literally handing out.) Counting might be the first abstraction beyond drawing the line between my cookies (another very early obtained concept) and your cookies.

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

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Aw, yes, I think I have been switching between agent-free and agent-dependent versions of the system whereby I can take on more of a first-person view of literal points or take on more of a third-person view from which the pointers are attached to an agent.

This may also be where the different interpretations of "entropy" stem from as I can see how in one way the heat death of the universe or the air molecules in a room may be encoded in a relatively "simple" way with low-ish, finite entropy. Then I can also see how I was just thinking a few minutes ago where there is potential for "hidden information" that can blow up the interpretation space leading to what I keep referring to as "infinite regressions".

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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by jacob »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:21 pm
Humans match before they count and they fit ( hand to mouth) before they match. Fitting (or grasping then fitting) might be the embodiment of self-care. Matching might be the embodiment of other care (food sharing or literally handing out.) Counting might be the first abstraction beyond drawing the line between my cookies (another very early obtained concept) and your cookies.
Yeah ... that's like copy, compare, compile. Compiling is a way of counting.

Lets, for example, say there are three apples on the table. These apples are the signified. A comparison to the mental concept of "apple" happens in the mind. This comparison yields the signifier---the abstract concept of an apple. (To an apple noob like me there are essential two kinds of apples, red and green... but to an apple expert there are very many different varieties.) Now having done the "compare" I've determined that there are 3 "points" that all match the "apple"-signifier. I can thus compile (frame?!?) them into a list or a collection.... and thus count them.

If this [explanation] is correct, what I'd very much like to see [daylen] is a pictorial illustration of that process using point(ers), frames, and agents. Just to verify that I might finally have identified the correct rabbit hole and climbed out of the wrong one.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Don’t you “compare” their placement on the table relative to your visual perspective before counting/compiling?

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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by jacob »

@7wb5 - I don't think one needs to order before counting. But one does need [compare] to identify what one counts. For example .. in the post above with the 2 red dots + 1 blue + 1 green. "Compare" is required to set the rules for compiling. If the red dots are fungible and position doesn't matter, there are 12 ways to do it (4!/2 .. four dots, 2 similar red ones) ... if they're not fungible there are 4!=24 ... and if position matters, the answer is infinite or only limited by phasespace.

TL;DR - order doesn't matter for counting... only that one is counting something that has been selected by comparing to some standard. This is also how instrumentalism works. We define some standard, like "1 kg", and then we compare how many "1 kg" measurements another measurement corresponds to using an instrument (here a scale). And then we can do "math" (Calculation).

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

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Okay, here is one way to do this that is ambiguous with direction of arrows. Though, another way more consistent with the C^6 mapping would be to have an overarching actuator connecting outside representation with inside. As then there would be a primary point flowing (i.e. an activity) which is connecting both to attention/agent simultaneously. Though, this flowed from me while drawing initially so may be an alternative that splits subject and object more distinctly. The direction of the arrows is presumed to be both ways as the pushing/pulling can go down a level (i.e. quicker time cycles). I have a feeling this is about to get quite messy. :)

Image
Last edited by daylen on Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

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Here now with the actuator and no arrows indicating push/pull.

Image

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by daylen »

So, perhaps then the first-person view aligns with C^6 and requires going straight into actuation flow (i.e. activity), and the third-person view can build up through pushing/pulling meta-points or arrows that indicate flow patterns, thus revealing attraction/repulsion.

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