Drawing Agency

The "other" ERE. Societal aspects of the ERE philosophy. Emergent change-making, scale-effects,...
daylen
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Drawing Agency

Post by daylen »

Thanks to Jacob for starting this sub-forum!

I figured I would go ahead and start a thread on an open-ended project I am working on that attempts to push into deep time and broad space. This is an open-ended project, and thus I am quite open to alternative suggestions or honest comments about things not making sense. Mostly, I just like to draw as I find it fun, but I also hope to create a system for representing agents and how they cluster/interact at various gradations of spacetime. I find myself inspired by all the work being done by people like John Vervaeke and others in the cognitive science field in attempting to make sense of how we make sense. On one hand, attempting to make something like consciousness concrete is a foolish activity, and on the other hand, there is an ongoing replication crisis in the psychological sciences due to the wide number of different paradigms floating about. I can't help but wonder if there is a small chance at developing a way for these schools/paradigms to cross-communicate more effectively. Perhaps going beyond mere IQ, big-5, system1/system2, and so forth. Perhaps the development of one system of this scope that kinda works will encourage the creation of other systems that work better, thereby helping to kick-start an evolutionary path towards greater unification in our understanding of consciousness.

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by daylen »

My proposed starting point is a simple yet powerful mapping that links signs, replication, and entropy.

Image

point - signified, high entropy
frame - signifier, low entropy
fit - sign, relative entropy, cultural replicator

jacob
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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by jacob »

I'm very much hoping your system/syntax could be used to draw some of the figs in my presentation. In particular, what I (NiTe) need to grok are some examples. To stay with the computer or language metaphor, right now there's a description of the words and the grammar, but it's short of examples of people speaking it. So need paragraphs or code-snippets.

My hope for drawing is that insofar one can draw e.g. K2, K3, ... K5 in a somewhat more detailed way than it's currently done, K6 can actually be kenned rather than just knowing it in an abstract way. But this will only happen by being able to "read" the drawing after becoming fluent. A dictionary+most common phrases used won't work.

ETA: I realize that this is not the way of the TiNe :) From my observations NiTe vs TiNe is exemplified by how physicists and [pure] mathematicians think about a[ny] problem. I struggle with pure math in the sense of "yes, this theorem is nice and the proof is solid, but what does it mean ... how do I connect it other things?"

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by daylen »

Image

Here is a mapping onto CCCCCC that I stumbled upon the other day. I thought about it for a bit and it seems to make sense. Of course, in the mist of an activity(*) many of these forms of attention will be running in parallel. Consciousness is the ground that switches between such forms automagically. Attention is itself quite linear in that is tends to follow tree-like paths that branch and compound. The mental imagery I am starting to form in my head at the macro-level is of fits being seeds planted in containers. Overtime, such fits grow out of the page to form trees with several layers of holonic containment. Attending "above" the surface is to mostly isolate the interaction between such trees emerging from holarchical depth in the "mind forest". Attending "below" the surface connects such trees via mycorrhizal networks that blur the boundaries and knots the assumptions hidden in the original attempts at containment.


(*) Which we can treat as near the "ground" of consciousness.

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by daylen »

@Jacob I thought the diagrams you used were basically just a slight transformation of this system. The major distinction being that the arrows demonstrated better the interconnected potential of high-entropy concepts/intuitions. Also the major theme of the talk was to increase this entropy by presumably pushing points in based on what points can be pushed out. :)

Another option is to pull points out to handle/find points being pulled in from "out there" (Ne-Si). The union being something like an activity which an agent can flow through by having access to actuation. In such a case, the mind is mostly in equilibrium with respect to the functions. The functions tend to emerge from stagnation at the fitting/copying step whereby agents will break flow and distribute points/frames differently between "in here" and "out there".

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by daylen »

One of the major questions that arises is on what scale(s)!?!? Though, it seems that this is precisely one of the barriers to usage as the system is designed to work across scale when considered as "micro" relative to some overarching "macro" that varies depending on the person. Someone with a very big overarching picture may want this system to operate on a very small scale, and someone with a medium picture may want this system to operate on a medium-small scale.

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by daylen »

Leading to a general trend I have found whereby alpha and cappa(*) quadras tend to go from micro-macro to messo, and beta and delta quadras tend to go from messo to micro-macro.

alpha - pull points/frames
beta - pull frames, push points
cappa - push points/frames
delta - push frames, pull points

So, I have found that with alpha and cappa you can just start talking about quantum mechanics and cosmology while working towards the evolution of messo activity. For beta and delta it tends to work better if you start with shared messo activites and work outwards from there. Beta/delta tends to respond better to quadras and enneagram, hence I have been working on a quadra-enneagram model that can look more at the link between social activity and bodily activity (helps to bridge K3 and K4 as a side effect).

(*) I replaced what people usually refer to as gamma with cappa because the whole A, B, G, D thing bothered me.

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by daylen »

With respect to the macro/micro, an observation in QM and an observation in cosmology are where the entropy of the signified and signifier align very well. Chunking can then do pretty well at various intermediate scales when combined with SM. Combine SM with practice (i.e. skin in the game) and you have yourself a field of inquiry with endless possibility and interpretation as the entropy of signified and signifier drift apart.

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by daylen »

If drawing seems nerdy, try dancing! I am serious as this is an excellent way to quite literally embody your understanding of what this system can represent. Dancing or body movement in general extends your working memory while still allowing you to actuate a flow and thus equalize function use. Energy intensive dancing extends identification and can slowly translate into low-energy meditation whereby the Kosmos can be contained in a single point in the palm of your hand. Then vanished as the point dissipates into an eternal now-ness.

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by daylen »

Interconnecting some more we can start to link up bodily activity attractors (enneagram) with social activity attractors (quadras). Dancing at parties is fun but if that is not your thing then less energetic links will suffice. Crowds of agents can be simplified through an overlay. Everyone already pretty much does this to some extent (unless super autistic), though embodying a way to construct/discover overlays consciously in the moment is like a super-power when your foundations are slim through bodily memory. As the meaning of events can become effectively infinite by linking the overlay with the branches above and the roots+fungi below.

In a crowded room with loose rules, humans will tend to do quite a bit of fitting with brief periods of actuation. Polarization and harmonization become less common as the rules loosen. Alpha(*) will tend to either place themselves near the center to maximize pull or otherwise stand alone on the peripheral when the situation becomes complex through polarization/harmonization (thus modulating pull). Cappa will tend to find a smaller group within the crowd to widen the scope of conversation, allowing micro-pushes towards a macro-carrot. Beta will tend to participate or otherwise cheer on group activities with a keen eye on agents being left out or otherwise polarized due to the emergence of depth in the holarchy. Delta will tend to want to manage the group activities so as to equalize application of the rules and track details of significance. Alpha and cappa are more likely to start going meta on the activities.

(*) Not to be confused for alpha of a pack.

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by daylen »

A closed curve of agency/communion can be drawn around any somewhat coupled system with discernible boundaries (aka an element of systems thinking). Indicating an ability to become autonomous with a flowing nature within the margins of equilibrium. Then may be nurtured through the discernment of intra-functional and inter-functional dependencies or links. Agents spin webs of inter and intra dependency.

At a separate level of scale from human or organismic agents, one could draw a curve around organizations or cities. Whereby correlation may be found between the up and down extent of such agents and their reach across the globe. Tall organizations/cities tend to reach far, as do deep mines. Also correlating with the number of steps or span of spirals emerging from such constructions. The degrees of freedom in a functional model tend to increase with increasing span of a spiral (i.e. more granular type and line theories). An excess of pulling tends to flatten, and an excess of pushing tends to heighten (both required for equilibrium potential in communion with like-agents).

Operation across multiple scales of agency/communion tends to approach autonomous strategy whereby synergies often occur in the alignment of ever wider scopes.

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by daylen »

Crossing consciousness with competence we get the following map. The solid curve in the middle is the agent where attention branches out/in. The fit inside the agent can be expanded to form their mind forest. The frame surrounding the agent is like a filter to the outside world where venturing beyond the curve requires a significant push or a singularity inducing pull.

Image
Last edited by daylen on Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:18 am, edited 2 times in total.

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by daylen »

Going further inwards/outwards can lead to significance and singularity which further spreads the agent outwards/inwards. An excess of pushing will tend to lead to specialty without scope, and an excess of pulling will tend to lead to scope without specialty. Neglecting the inner or outer will tend to trap an agent in a bubble of selfish or otherwise limited concerns.
Last edited by daylen on Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by daylen »

Given that entropy is being used regularly, here are a few ways to think of it.

1. Hidden information - ways to cut reality that cannot be retrieved.

2. Solids are low entropy relative to high entropy gases.

3. Increasing entropy increases how long it would take to count like-states. That is, there are less ways to rearrange particles of a phone so that it is still recognizable/usable relative to a palm full of air.

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by daylen »

Hence, a point of high entropy can exhibit many bifurcations in the state-space, producing many branches, while still being identified/signified. A frame of lower entropy attempts to contain and constrain what a point can be/become so that it remains a signifier for that point. Signs have a relative entropy that determines or constrains the transmission error/success rate during communication. Different communication methods will have different bit-rates and protocols, allowing for channel analysis using the tools of information/communication theory.

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by daylen »

Here is an example conversation that starts to show how pushing and pulling may come into play when excess fits spawn in addition to the actuation required to grasp what the other agent is talking about. Also demonstrates the parallel tendencies of attention when attempting to make sense of the ground of consciousness in which infinite interconnection occurs.

Image

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by daylen »

Here is a map of the functions to help signal what the words mean and where pushing/pulling comes from. Originally, I used pressing for pushing and operating for pulling, but Jacob made the suggestion of push/pull which I immediately latched onto.

Image

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by daylen »

Here is one way to represent the mind forest if you lack a third dimension to draw in. These trees could even branch out into the conscious incompetence if looking to stretch.

Image

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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by jacob »

daylen wrote:
Sat Sep 04, 2021 8:34 am
Image

point - signified, high entropy
frame - signifier, low entropy
fit - sign, relative entropy, cultural replicator
Do the algebraic symbols ( / and = ) imply anything? What are the units if any? Does the entropy relate to physics or is it a more general measure of subresolution uncertainty of what goes on inside the frames?

daylen
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Re: Drawing Agency

Post by daylen »

It is a unit-less equation where something like certainty/uncertainty emerges from ratio on right. Thinking of entropy as a general measure of how hard it is to count but how to count is not given. The concept I have of entropy pulls from physics and statistics, though such a concept tends to be embedded in a context that presumes a way to count. How that counting is done depends on something else, though I figured that counting was about as concrete a hole to leave open as any.
Last edited by daylen on Mon Sep 06, 2021 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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