seanconn's journal

Where are you and where are you going?
Scott 2
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Re: seanconn's journal

Post by Scott 2 »

How are you presenting frugality to Mom? There might be a virtue signaling approach that stops her worrying. Examples:


We're trying to avoid sugar and artificial sweeteners because we're concerned about the long term health impacts. We've been doing tea and water instead. It's a trade off, but we've gotten this special loose leaf tea from ABC. Since we can use the correct temperature water and brew time, it's better than anything from a store. You have to try it. I miss the carbonation, but the acid in soda is so hard on the teeth. Did you see when they dissolved a tooth in coke? You can clean toilets with the stuff.

I checked our water quality report, we're so lucky to have water from XYZ source. It's even better than bottled.

I might wants kids someday, but am worried if global climate change will leave a viable world. We've stopped eating red meat because of the resource consumption. It's a sacrifice, but the chance for kids is worth it.

I've put a lot of work into learning how to prepare authentic Mexican food. You can't get anything like this locally. I'd love to share it with you. Farts? OMG, me too! I had to learn how to soak the beans to make the oligosaccharides digestible. Restaurants won't take the time, but it's a game changer.


You get the idea. The 2nd and 3rd order effects of living frugally offer much stronger arguments than "Money!" and "Freedom!".

I'm with mom on living out of boxes though. Either get rid of the crap, or pick up some functional storage. Used shelving is cheap.

theanimal
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Re: seanconn's journal

Post by theanimal »

Very amusing excerpt! DF and I both got some laughs out of it.

We use some cardboard boxes as well. Kindling is in a box next to the stove, my assorted chargers and small electronics are in a box on my desk and our toiletries were in a box until they were recently upgraded to non cardboard status. Perfectly functional!

I think the important question is what does your gf think? Is she still on board or was she agreeing with her mom?

Western Red Cedar
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Re: seanconn's journal

Post by Western Red Cedar »

Scott 2 wrote:
Sun Mar 13, 2022 4:08 pm
You get the idea. The 2nd and 3rd order effects of living frugally offer much stronger arguments than "Money!" and "Freedom!".
+1 to this. I've emphasized the desire to be conscious consumers and limit our ecological footprint when talking to the in-laws, because I know they also share these values. Having a little bit of context on where someone is coming from helps a lot when talking about 2nd/3rd order effects. I often lead with minimalism/environment/simplicity/ philosophies when discussing lifestyle with other people, and occasionally mention that it also allows me to save money depending on the relationship or context.

It takes a while to figure out how to communicate ERE with different personalities. I found that once I shifted from an argumentative tone to a more light-hearted response with the same information, it helped diffuse some of the judgments and back and forth. Though sometimes I just have to keep my mouth shut and pretend I'm a sociologist studying the grand experiment of US consumerism.

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seanconn256
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Re: seanconn's journal

Post by seanconn256 »

Scott 2 wrote:
Sun Mar 13, 2022 4:08 pm
How are you presenting frugality to Mom? There might be a virtue signaling approach that stops her worrying.
Ill admit Ive made no real attempt to explain myself to her. She lives a couple hours away and has bascially no leverage over me. I have let it slip that I intend to retire early only to avoid lying.

The advice you all have given me is valuable if I ever need to convince someone. I find virtue signaling to be slightly dishonest in this case, but its a useful tool to have.

On my GF, she is more amenable to my lifestyle than others only because shes seen the effects of it. Earlier, I had tried to convince her, even along the lines of health and environmental concerns, but to no avail. She has had to see the things I do to really be open to it. The fact that I eat well, and eat healthy, and spend so little has been one thing shes commented on. She definitely does not like the compromise with housing etc but has admitted it does not really matter in the long run.

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seanconn256
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Re: seanconn's journal

Post by seanconn256 »

Also, I will die on the cardboard box hill. :D They are suprisingly durable.

white belt
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Re: seanconn's journal

Post by white belt »

Something else to consider is where someone falls on the spectrum of form vs functionality. You seem to be on one extreme towards the functionality end of things, which is totally fine and I think quite common on this forum. However, do not assume that this is a universal perspective. If someone is quite concerned with form/aesthetics, it may be worth trying to figure out a solution that looks nice too. For example, my DGF is also quite function-driven but definitely likes things to also look nice. Note that nice doesn't need to mean expensive. Aesthetics can really affect how a person feels.

I believe Jacob said something similar about the "brand" of ERE looking much more appealing to the masses after he moved to a regular house with a nice garden that provides him with fresh vegetables, as opposed to the RV days with lentil eating :D , even if functionally they are quite similar.

Scott 2
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Re: seanconn's journal

Post by Scott 2 »

2 of the 3 tables in my first apartment were built from banker's boxes. I get the appeal.

Convincing Mom is about making your girlfriend's life easier. Your relationship with her family is part of the package, good or bad.

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seanconn256
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Re: seanconn's journal

Post by seanconn256 »

Yea I consider my housing arrangement to be a issue that's between me and my GF, if her, or my, family doesn't approve I don't think that's a big deal. I will be sure to explain things in terms she can agree with if it becomes an issue in the future, however. It's not like we're doing anything irresponsible or dangerous, even in their eyes.

On the issue of form vs function; I have definitely seen that. Something to keep in mind, for sure.

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Re: seanconn's journal

Post by jacob »

There's definitely a sliding scale of furniture wants as well:
  1. Cardboard and duct tape boxes
  2. Random free furniture
  3. Matching sets (even if there are way too many pieces :-P )
  4. Matching sets that match the rest of the interior
We've lived with 1 and now use 2. Most people seem to live in 3 unless they have an interest in interior decorating and live in 4. People from 3 have politely noted our eclectic(2) collection in terms of "upgrading". It's definitely a drag on the FI argument if keeping up appearances matter to someone. Keep in mind that most consumers are self-defined almost exclusively by what they own because there's no time for other activities.

7Wannabe5
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Re: seanconn's journal

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

It's entirely possible to create an eclectic interior design that is well above Level 4. (Matchy-matchy=blech and boring.) For instance, a friend of mine with a great sense of design and some carpentry skills makes fantastic pieces out of salvage, pallets, concrete, and pebbles. Architecture, art, and nature are all inclusive of elements that can be incorporated very inexpensively in our throw-away culture, if the aesthetics of your living place is at all a priority. (I should note that I am typing this from my office floor desk which is nothing but a banker box filled with books-lol.)

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seanconn256
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Re: seanconn's journal

Post by seanconn256 »

This is actually something I've thought about. Our families opinions mean little to me, but my GF actually lives here so thats a different story.

Half of the reason Im getting into woodworking is to make our own furniture, or at least some of it. I care entirely about function, and having well made (with practice) stuff that will last a long time is a huge plus for me.

My GF, who cares about both form and function, likes the homey/cottage aesthetic, so wood stuff fits well. Also the fact that it can be made to order is a plus for her.

I have not experiemented with using reclaimed wood however. I have not put in the time to find a source beyond quick googling. I am, I realize, waiting until a problem arises to find a solution. That is not a good idea, as many smart solutions to things take time. This may be a good thing for me to figure out beforehand.

Western Red Cedar
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Re: seanconn's journal

Post by Western Red Cedar »

I think this exchange exemplifies a microcosm of applied ERE philosophy. There are many different paths to leading a good life with a minimal footprint. One might opt to minimize desires and forego traditional necessities (one of my favorite techniques). One might wait for a great sale, or thrift some reasonable items. One might opt to practice patience and pick up what others discard. The last two options creates the impression that one hasn't turned away from these traditional necessities.
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Mon Mar 21, 2022 9:14 am
It's entirely possible to create an eclectic interior design that is well above Level 4. (Matchy-matchy=blech and boring.)
When the ERE engine is pumping on all cylinders, one might opt to salvage materials and create something new. Blending artistry and technical skills to create unique pieces of furniture that rival designs in the newest edition of architectural digest. Of course, you may still receive a snide comment from someone who equates value with dollars spent (such as MIL), but those with a good eye for design will recognize that you've created something far superior to matching sets and interiors.

It was when I started realizing that applied ERE would lead to a better life, with better solutions and outcomes, that I really started to appreciate it and let go of the notion that purchasing a solution, be it travel/adventure or furniture, was not as valuable as creating something new from scratch.

Scott 2
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Re: seanconn's journal

Post by Scott 2 »

Be careful of this trap - Letting your loved ones live in sub-standard conditions, because you have aspirations of learning the skills to live in above-standard conditions.

Buying used and garbage picking can get you close to standard furniture expectations extremely fast, especially if you are young. Used furniture is stupidly inexpensive.

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seanconn256
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Re: seanconn's journal

Post by seanconn256 »

Definitely a possibility to look out for. You're correct that used furniture is incredibly cheap as well, people just want it gone now because they've already bought the new thing and dont have space for the old anymore.

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seanconn256
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Re: seanconn's journal

Post by seanconn256 »

Another informal monthly post;

I achieved all my goals for last month. They were:
understand the market fundamentals behind the Permanent Portfolio beyond a layman level:
Bond markets are more complex than I thought. but it makes sense that interest rate decreases that happen during deflation would bring the price of fixed rate treasury bonds up. I am also less worried about investing in gold. I consider it not to be an investment as much as insurance. Selling gold when everything else is doing poorly helps hedge against sequence of returns risk and for historical data improves the SWR of the portfolio in doing so. It's also evident that active traders use gold as a safer place to put money during risky economic conditions. That is shown by price spikes during turmoil/market events. I can benefit from this even with passive strategies.

keep reading; next on my list is Siddhartha, a book on the Permanent Portfolio, and I may find something fun to read:
Read both, siddhartha was really good. Very digestible and direct philosophy. Permanent Portfolio book was also direct and to the point. For fun, I chose to read "Leviathan Wakes", a science fiction book.

stay the course and stop stressing about/thinking about money all the time:
This I have done quite well. Despite my investment research, I have not really thought about money all that much. I think more in terms of waste now. Wasteful things are quite often expensive, and efficiency is cheap. I do compare prices at the supermarket, but the difference is often negligible for the things I buy. For example, I bought used pants for 3$ at goodwill when a new pair was on sale for 8$ at a clothing store. I actively knew I didn't care about the price difference, it being so small, but got the goodwill pair anyways. I did this because buying used felt less wasteful (the items were of the same quality). I checked my finances at the end of the month, again I spent less than before.

start or at least pitch the mastermind group.
This is going great. We have had some informative discussions and passed around some great advice. The mixture in experience/expertise in our group is especially interesting. Very glad I started it.

My goals for April:
- do a deep dive on systems theory. I've done this before, but never really got it. It was recommended that I look into the book "Edible Forest Gardens" as a hands on example of systems theory in action. I was also pointed towards some threads on the forum. I want to to actually learn something here, so this may take more than a month. I will also take another look at the ERE book for this purpose.
- build an easel. I found some wood chairs by the dumpster in mostly perfect condition. I am going to deconstruct them and make an easel out of one of them. should be a simple project.
- find out a better way to exercise. I've had some motivation trouble, and after mentioning this to the mastermind group I have some thinking and re-planning to do.
- continue reading. ERE book sections, Edible Forest Gardens, sci-fi book, and "Heart of Darkness" are on the list.

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Re: seanconn's journal

Post by jacob »

seanconn256 wrote:
Sun Apr 03, 2022 12:00 pm
- do a deep dive on systems theory. I've done this before, but never really got it. It was recommended that I look into the book "Edible Forest Gardens" as a hands on example of systems theory in action. I was also pointed towards some threads on the forum. I want to to actually learn something here, so this may take more than a month. I will also take another look at the ERE book for this purpose.
Much easier to do with pre-existing domain knowledge.

Permaculture is a good example but if and only if you have gardening experience. Otherwise,
Management: Peter Senge / Fifth Discipline.
Home economics: ERE book
Physics/Computer science: Weinberg
Ecology: Donella Meadows

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seanconn256
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Re: seanconn's journal

Post by seanconn256 »

jacob wrote:
Mon Apr 04, 2022 11:55 am
Much easier to do with pre-existing domain knowledge.
...
Physics/Computer science: Weinberg
I actually have Weinbergs Introduction to General Systems Thinking on my to-read list.

As for using permaculure as an example, I feel like im getting it pretty well. I am certainly no expert gardener, but I consider the needs of most plants to be pretty straightforward. Temperature, soil nutrients, water availability, sunlight, pollenation, pest control etc.

Since I understand that suffiecently, I can see the benefit of using setting up a system where the output of plants feed the input of others. Then learning about the design of that system becomes the focus.

I will make sure to checkout Weinbergs book as well, it will likely also be instructional

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grundomatic
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Re: seanconn's journal

Post by grundomatic »

I'm thankful for the input as well. I'll be picking up the Fifth Discipline.

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seanconn256
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Re: seanconn's journal

Post by seanconn256 »

Monthly post for April:
Finances
normal. No real change. This is the last month I am helping my girlfriend pay for her expenses, so my savings rate should shoot up after this month.

Goals:
do a deep dive on systems theory:
I read half of Vol 1 of edible forest gardens, and General Systems theory.
I feel like this was fruitful. There were a couple of 'aha' moments, especially these:
  • systems are used for what Weinberg calls 'medium number systems'; meaning situations where there are too many things to count individually, but too little or too diverse to describe with aggregate statistics. These problems exhibit a large amount of diversity and are difficult to study traditionally
  • systems are just models. they are ways of understanding a system based on logic and observations. models are not 'fake', they are just ways of looking at something. This was an issue I had in the past with music theory. I couldn't figure out why key signatures were a thing, and felt arbitrary, so I had a lot of trouble learning them. Even if I don't understand all the details about why they work, I can see how they work and with study use them.
  • a lot of western thinking is based on maximizing one thing and only one thing. Get the most money, GDP, vacation time, food at a buffet, etc. If you really want more than one thing, which you really always do, systems can provide more total reward. This is true for forest gardens vs traditional crop fields, and life.
build an easel:
about halfway done with this.

find out a better way to exercise:
with the mastermind group, I've been looking into other avenues of exercise. I previously had been doing pretty much the same routine for 2 years, and I realized that having different exercises to do each workout makes it less of a drag. I also like dynamic exercises, so I'm doing more of those (burpees as opposed to just pushups etc). As a result I have enjoyed my workouts more, and skipped them much less often.

continue reading; ERE book sections, Edible Forest Gardens, sci-fi book, and "Heart of Darkness":
Also all done, haven't finished Edible Forest Gardens but its basically a textbook so I forgive myself. I have read 12 books this year, which is more than I read last year already.


Misc observations:


My garden is going well. It's just a kiddie pool filled with dirt on my patio, and some pots, but I am now growing:
  • zucchini
  • carrots
  • lettuce
  • basil
  • spinach
  • tomatoes
Looking forward to seeing how that progresses.

The difference between knowing and understanding is not something I've really had to deal with before. The ERE book explains this with it's 'copying -> comparing -> compiling -> computing -> coordinating -> creating' model, but it's really apparent to me now, after trying to learn stuff with systems theory. There have been multiple times where I now finally 'get' something I have already said in a journal entry a half a year ago, but didn't actually understand until now. My perceived gap between my knowledge of ERE theory and ERE application was really just a lack of understanding of the theory.

I also think one of the things that's keeping me from finding better solutions to problems is that I lack the toolset to approach them differently. For example, I need a larger pot for my bonsai plant. Previously, my options would have been to either buy a cheap one, an expensive one that will last, or give up. The only thing I would be thinking about was price/use and how to maximize it.
Now that I have a small amount of woodworking experience, my first thought was how do i make this from the scrap wood I already have. This solution is cheaper than the cheapest pot, and is made to order. It is also a creative activity, which i enjoy.

I need to find more things like woodworking. Things that let me solve problems without products or money, if I want to 'progress' further.

I also now have a general ERE plan of study that results from this and other observations:
  1. systems thinking, other conceptual skills
  2. health (diet + exercise)
  3. hard skills (woodworking, electronics repair, ???)
  4. investing (following the investment curriculum from the blog)
Goals for May:
  • continue reading. Read at least book that relates to the previous goals. Bonus points: read two
  • finish the easel
  • start the bonsai pot
  • don't kill my plants

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seanconn256
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Re: seanconn's journal

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This is a weird post to write. Things in my life have taken an interesting turn.

Essentially, my girlfriend and I are going to take a break, because we realized we are seriously codependent and it's unhealthy for our relationship and lives. She's going to move out, and we will reconvene in about half a year to see if/how we want to continue things. She is staying here until she can find a place, so this won't really happen for a month or two.

I'm going to use that time to try out some radical things that I haven't been able to do before. I am going to do a 'buy nothing 6 months', and I'm going to do a series of 'no internet weeks' so I can try to produce things in my free time. I may also do some 'no screen time' weekends/weeks.

I program computers for a living, so I essentially spend all day at the computer during the week, and take a break after work by spending all night at the computer. As a result I've developed some serious computer skills, but at the same time I'm lacking in other places. These challenges should help me fix that, all the while reducing expenses and hopefully increasing resilience by increasing the options I have to solve problems. I am still working out the details of how these challenges will work.

I remember reading in siddhartha that you can only learn so much from teachings, with the implication being that you have to learn some things for yourself. I think I'm trying to learn all the things from the forum, ere book, and from fire websites online so I can ascend the ladder of wheaton levels until I can stop working asap. I have to realize that that's not how that works. The wheaton levels are way to understand where other people are for communication purposes, not a roadmap to ere-enlightenment or something.

I still have done some systems theory exercises however. Someone in the mastermind group recommended that I look at the systems I interact with, instead of just thinking of systems that describe the things I do. For example, what do I interact with to get food? water? shelter? what are the inputs and outputs? etc.

Every time I devise a system that represents my life, it tells me the same thing, and this time is no different. I use money for everything. The ways that I have changed my life to attempt ERE have been almost entirely to save money, to do the same activities for cheaper, or cutting out things that cost too much. I haven't transitioned to producing anything, unless my little garden or hobby woodworking projects count.

I still am happy to see this, however. I think this means I am starting to understand systems theory as a mental-model building process, and that I just don't have the tangible skills to utilize these more sophisticated mental models.

I remember reading in a thread here that the way to progress to a new way of thinking is to understand the limitations of the current one. I think I get the limitations of money maximizing now. There are other ways of doing things, so only focusing on money ignores many solutions. Money is not really a goal, it's a means to an end. There are other means, not just other ends. I was previously thinking of the next step, which I incorrectly thought was systems theory, as a fancier way to save money. I was still thinking with the old model, and hit a wall.

The fact that this is not something I can immediately apply is not evidence that there is something I don't get, or that I am wrong, it's just that I need to actively keep working to learn skills and apply this understanding. This realization is like a muscle I just realized I had, and I am wondering why it can't lift anything yet. It's atrophied, and I need to work it out. This is my goal now.

As for goals:

May Goals Retro:
continue reading. Read at least book that relates to the previous goals. Bonus points: read two:
I read 'General Systems Thinking' By Weinberg. I don't think I understood the whole thing, because I didn't get much from the second half. The generic descriptions of what systems are and how to think of them were helpful, then after that I didn't get much. This is my newly created 'reread list'. Also no bonus points.
finish the easel: not done. I have had quite a month, so I forgive myself.
start the bonsai pot: not done, see above
don't kill my plants: done!

June Goals:
actually finish the easel
actually start the bonsai pot
get a plan for the misc challenges I want to do
do one of the smaller challenges (no internet, or no screen time week)
keep with my new exercise+yoga routines

Bonus picture of my garden:
Image

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