AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by jacob »

There are different kinds of friendship. Aristotle distinguished between friends of virtue, pleasure, and utility, respectively. It's conceivable that modernist friendships are friendships of utility... and romantic/postmodernist friendships are friendships of pleasure.

I have people in my circle where we might not speak for years but when we meet it's as if we were never separated even if it's been years of not talking. I think the 21st century is looking for "ride and die" virtues.

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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by grundomatic »

I'm sorry you feel like you've had to mask your whole life. When you are having a hard time connecting with "normies", remember that your ERE people are here for you.

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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by Scott 2 »

Masking is exhausting. My entire career was founded upon a series of masks. I believe that's part of why I burnt out.

I enjoyed this recent book by Devon Price on the topic - Unmasking Autism:

https://www.amazon.com/Unmasking-Autism ... 0593235231

I don't think you have to be autistic to benefit from the author's work. The story of forcing yourself to fit is fairly universal.

AnalyticalEngine
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

@mountainFrugal - That's a good idea. I'll give that a shot and see how it goes. Since I'm not on social media at all, I've found it's sometimes hard to keep up with people. I think I need a more active approach of initiating things more frequently.

@jacob - That's also a good point on the three friendship types. I think a healthy balance between the three types would be ideal, as is not mistaking one type of friend for another. As I build my social capital here, I might start thinking about what type of friend each person is to me and what I am to them.

@grundomatic - Thank you, it definitely does get exhausting to mask all of the time. I'm thankful for this community because it's a good place to discuss a lot of ideas that have literally no platform anywhere else. I think one of the harder aspects of interacting with "normies" is that you have this elaborate framework to discuss but no one is ever going to grok it because most people just don't inhabit that kind of headspace. To that extend, the Internet is a good place to talk about more niche topics.

@Scott 2 - Thanks for the book rec. I put that on hold at the library and I'll check it out. I don't actually think I have autism, but I do relate to the having to mask all of the time to fit in or feeling like you have to hold back pieces of yourself because they're so detached from how most people perceive the world that you can't relate over it.

Masking at work is definitely exhausting. I think everyone has to mask at work to some extent, but it's a lot worse if the mask you have to wear is drastically different than your base personality or if you have no outlet for your actual self outside of work too. I used to cope with it better, but years of it have worn me down too. I think you start to feel like there's no point in acting that way any more as the reward for it becomes less meaningful. Maybe it's a consequence of F-you money/FI for me.

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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

The Makeup of a Satisfying Life: The Interaction of the Self with the External and the Internal

I've been digging into Jung's Red Book recently, which is a fascinating work of art and writing he produced as a sort of personal insight journal. Inside it, he details his personal journey into his internal world through mythic figures and paintings. He spend decades cataloging his internal world, and through that process, he came up with much of his theories of how the conscious mind works.

Jungian thought takes quite seriously the dimensions of the internal world, and there's a great belief that doing internal work through symbolism, such as active imagination or the subpersonalities, brings insight to the conscious mind and allows for greater navigation of the external world. Jung called this process "individuation," and it describes how to bring all aspects of the Self into harmony.

Building off this framework, I've come up with some theories on how to find fulfillment outside of existing cultural avenues.

Existence can be split into two aspects. There is internal existence, which are the experiences you have inside your own head with memory, emotion, cognition, and consciousness. Then there is external existence, which are the experiences you have in the external world. These two sides of existence influence each other and the boundary between them is sometimes blurry. For example, internal existence might influence external existence through the placebo effect, and external existence might influence internal existence through something like traumatic experience. Thus both facets of existence are important, and it's important to work on both.

There's been a lot of discussion on how to use ERE to improve external existence. That is, retiring from your salaryman job to pursue interesting hobbies, travel, build things, organize your local community, etc. These things are very important, but there's a lack of information on how to improve internal existence. I think that's why certain people are attracted to ERE. If you don't care as much about internal existence or internal existence comes more naturally to you (you have good mental health or low neuroticism or you just really already know what you want out of life for example), you might not have to spend as much time building up this facet of yourself. I think that's also why Plotkin/Buddhism/etc has gotten popular here lately because these things detail how to build up the internal side of existence.

A major mistake I made early on in my ERE journey was to discount internal experience and merely dissociate through anything that was uncomfortable. But what's more important than learning to tolerate hardship is learning to heighten external experience through internal work. If you're going to take a cold shower, don't just suppress the pain and dissociate through the experience. Rather, learn to make that negative external experience into a positive one by using the correct internal tools (reframing, mindfulness, unlocking your inner cold shower warrior, whatever). This is essentially the lost role religion or spirituality used to play--giving people psychological tools to heighten internal existence and not leave dissociation as the only internal coping mechanism for hardship.

I believe this is why people who don't really understand ERE complain about it (they can only see 'negative' external experience as deprivation) or why FI principles can be dangerous (I'm going to hoard money to play video games and actually deprive myself of experience). Neither of these perspectives understand how to organize your internal experience for fulfillment and are stuck inside a surface level of external experience.

Western consumer culture also worsens the problem by making life uniquely traumatic in some aspects, such as monotony, isolation, unhealthy diet and exercise, and disconnection from meaningful values while also making it too easy in other aspects, such as the relative comfort and safety we live in, easy access to entertainment, etc. The result is tendency to live a life that is deprived of both interesting internal and external experiences, leading to many of the psychological malaise we see today.

The way out of this problem is learn to cultivate fulfilling internal and external experiences within yourself, and you have to focus on both. You have to learn to understand yourself, your own emotions and motivations, and then also understand the external world and how you can act within it. And you have to be far more proactive about both these things than is ever expressed in normative cultural values.

I'll be coming up with a plan soon to implement growth in both these areas in my own life, so that will be coming in a future post.

Extra note: I actually believe social interactions with other people occur at both internal and external experience (see Jacob's post on intersubjectivity a bit higher up in the thread), which is why some theories like postmodernism or post-structuralism exist.

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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

Plotkin Update

I've been doing a lot of Plotkin-style self-therapy lately, and it's been tremendously helpful. The real advantage of Plotkin is it helps you unravel all the bad habits and limiting beliefs you've accumulated through your entire life like the layers of an onion. After you make peace with one subpersonality, you discover another one that was being covered up. Plotkin gives you a balanced framework to do this under.

I've been dealing with a subpersonality that's extremely angry, and it made me realize that this emotion was being covered up by this limiting belief that I'm not allowed to actually exist/aforementioned masking. A combination of learned helplessness, being institutionalized, and untreated depression manifested in me never trying to do anything ever. I had internalized this belief that life is for other people to live, but because I am uniquely flawed, I needed to avoid any and all risks, and this included basic things like putting myself out there in social situations.

I've been unpacking this belief, and I've finally come to realize that I am allowed to want things, I'm allowed to have expectations in relationships, and I'm allowed to do things that will bring me closer to the things I want. It doesn't matter if the things I want aren't ""normal"" or ""socially acceptable,"" I'm still allowed to actually live the life I want to live and not be afraid to actually exist.

And yet, an important corollary to this is that actually doing things requires that you...actually do things. I really can't sit around and blame the world for my problems or expect an answer to magically descend from the sky. Your psychological challenges and limiting beliefs don't go away simply because you've identified them. You have to act on the problem. If you have social anxiety, for example, you have to actually put yourself in social situations to disprove the anxiety. You can't just keep reading books about how to cure social anxiety.

Moving past limiting beliefs

The main thing holding me back from ERE is that I have no actual plan for ERE. ERE isn't a destination; it's a million small skills that come together to a lifestyle. Unless I start actually identifying and working on these skills, I'm going to continue to be stuck in the WL5 mindset of "hoard money, go out to eat, and play video games."

There's a lot of skills I need to learn, but I'm not going to try to get into them all at once because I'll get overwhelmed. So these are things I'm working on right now:

1. Diet - As mentioned, I go out to eat too much and generally am inefficient with how I eat. I'm switching to home-cooking, and instead of looking at this like deprivation, I'm going to look at it like I can cook better than restaurants anyway. There's also a huge health component here, as going out to eat a lot is leading to weight gain and high blood sugar, so it's a good idea to stop this before it ever has a change to turn into an actual disease.

2. Exercise - The only way I can force myself to exercise is to go to the gym. I just will not do it if I try to do it at home. I'm currently going 3x/week and running for 30 min + 30 min weight lifting. I have a lot to learn with weight lifting technique, so that's my current focus. I know that you can do other exercises, but my fitness background is slug, so I'm trying to learn how to walk before learning to run, so to speak.

3. Decluttering and maintenance - I've lived in the same place for about 7 years now, so I've accumulated a lot of junk I need to sell on ebay. I'm trying to foster the systems-mindset of thinking of the full lifecycle of everything I own, including new possessions.

This is a bit of an interesting area because the slug-depression mode just made me not buy anything, but actually obtaining the right possessions can be a source of great joy. So I'm going to try and source things I need (hobbies, clothes, whatever) with the ERE mindset instead of just not buying anything and being sad.

4. Hobbies - A lot of my hobbies are very academic, but I think it would help me to get involved in hobbies that use my underdeveloped functions so that I'm experiencing more of life. I think I'm going to try and pick up more sports and hands-on hobbies. This is probably going to include hiking, because I live in Colorado, but I would like to try some sports too. I'm thinking maybe a league the gym or signing up for something like boxing might help develop areas I'm weak in.

5. Track spending - I need to track spending again so I have an idea of where my efforts are actually going.

The great housing dilemma

I'm debating either moving or going on a long (many months long) roadtrip, but I haven't made a decision yet. I'm starting to feel like where I live is holding me back because I've lived here for seven years, and I need to move to challenge myself more. It might be to another state or to downtown Denver or something else entirely. I'm not sure yet.

The problem is my house has become worth so much money, and I have it so paid off, that moving becomes problematic. I bought this condo for $180k back in 2015, but it's now worth $400k. I currently owe only $67k, which means that if I sell it, I suddenly have ~$350k that I need to find something to do with. Additionally, because I have it so paid down, my interest + escrow + HOA is only $660 a month, which is so much cheaper than rent anywhere else.

My options are to either sell it, continue to live here (if I got a roommate, I could live here for free), or rent it out. I'm not sure which is the answer yet.

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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

[Changed my mind on wanting to post this]

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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by jacob »

AnalyticalEngine wrote:
Mon Jun 06, 2022 3:02 pm
3. Decluttering and maintenance - I've lived in the same place for about 7 years now, so I've accumulated a lot of junk I need to sell on ebay. I'm trying to foster the systems-mindset of thinking of the full lifecycle of everything I own, including new possessions.
Disclaimer: Potential pre/trans fallacy centered around WL7.

Over the past several years our home increasingly turned into an ongoing construction zone of various projects. Free stuff would come in ("if it's free, it's for for me"). It would stay in some corner or along the wall space waiting to be integrated with other stuff in order to move along after adding value. The mental load of coordination and creating connections between all these projects---my to-do list is 25+ items deep---eventually became somewhat stressful, just looking at it. I'd accumulate nice-to-have rather than need-to-have or even want-to-have projects like cast iron sinks and cuckoo clocks. And the ever present motorized kitchen tools.

Recently, we did the "Scott2"-approach and simply put the stuff out back for free instead of listing and selling it. It could probably have sold for a few hundred bucks, but we don't really need more bucks. The ease of convenience was worth it and likely it made some scrapper's day too as the stuff was gone within a couple of hours. It was good stuff.

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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by J_ »

jacob wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 1:32 pm

Recently, we did the "Scott2"-approach and simply put the stuff out back for free instead of listing and selling it. It could probably have sold for a few hundred bucks, but we don't really need more bucks. The ease of convenience was worth it and likely it made some scrapper's day too as the stuff was gone within a couple of hours. It was good stuff.
Yes, we do the same with superfluous but still good stuff.
Can it be that doing ere for a long time one veers to a mental and physical "sameness"?

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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

If you tell yourself that you must immediately schedule on your calendar/routine the time to integrate/fix/process free stuff you scavenge, it reduces the urge. Otherwise, it will expand to fit the space you allow it.

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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by jacob »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Wed Jun 15, 2022 7:12 am
If you tell yourself that you must immediately schedule on your calendar/routine the time to integrate/fix/process free stuff you scavenge, it reduces the urge. Otherwise, it will expand to fit the space you allow it.
Basically a trade-off between space, time, and developing fix-it capability.

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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

Reminds me of the multiple times I've rediscovered why Just In Time was invented in the first place. :lol: It's really easy to sit on hobby stuff for years because you spent money on it vs simply discarding some of it for the space with the knowledge that you can probably go to Walmart again to buy more paper. I suppose redundancy vs space is one of those "choose one" dilemmas.

Anyway, I'm realizing the reason I haven't escaped some of the stuff I own is because I have this expectation of resale that's slowing me down. I do tend to fall into the trap of "I have like a million dollars so X amount of money is nothing," which I've been trying to unlearn, but it might also be that it's better for me to just call this a wash and move onto spending my time somewhere with higher pay off.

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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by jacob »

I broke the trap by realizing that I've been sitting on stuff that I'm doing nothing with that local "Something from Nothing"-entrepreneurs could and would create an economy from. In particular, my personal "Something from Nothing" is maxed out, so I shouldn't hoard ever more projects. IOW, the ROI from keeping it for myself is less for [local?] society than the ROI from circling it back out. And so back out it goes.

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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by candide »

This is pretty much where we have to be while society is still in this paradigm.

I am reminded of JMG's "Adam's Story" and the town warehouse that formed as a result of catabolic collapse.
http://archdruidmirror.blogspot.com/201 ... aters.html
Some of the things you’ll need you’ll have to buy or work for, but some you can get free – this town used to have upwards of seven thousand people, and a lot of their stuff is still around. The city warehouse is one of the things I manage, so check with me.
. . .
The next few days were a blur: choosing a house from among the empty ones on the edge of the inhabited part of town, with a yard big enough for chickens and gardens and no leaks in the roof; going to the city warehouse and finding out just how much tableware and cooking pots, storm windows and furniture seven thousand people had left behind

AnalyticalEngine
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

June Review

Being sick
I got some illness that was either COVID or the flu in the beginning of the month that ended up knocking me out for nearly two weeks. I basically had a fever for four days then a lingering cough for three weeks and counting. Spent $100 for a doctor's visit + the good stuff prescription cold medicine to help with the symptoms. I'm finally feeling better, but this did derail most of my month. I think I got spoiled by not getting sick for nearly three years due to never leaving my house during the pandemic. :lol:

Social update
I'm finding the problem with a lot of the meetup groups I'm going to is that they consist of "go to bar, get drinks." While this is fun and it's good to get out, the purely consumptive nature of this is starting to feel limiting. It seems to be that most adults do constructive socializing at work and consumptive socializing outside of work.

Getting involved with volunteer groups does help add that group-oriented, problem solving socialization that I miss from working in an office, but as I mentioned in another post, a lot of volunteer groups have you do activities that are of a low skill level, so these can get boring too.

I think it would probably help if I were the one to start organizing activities, as I can be the person to choose what happens, but my networking skills are not quite here yet. I'm going to start thinking about how I can take a leadership role in these things.

Police academy
I "graduated" police academy, so that activity is now over. This was basically a 13-week community course the police academy was hosting to teach the community more about how they operate. It was a pretty fun activity, and I've found out that these types of community academies are something that a lot of cities have. Denver has one too, so I am going to try and take that one next. I live in a conservative suburb, so I think the differences between the Denver police department and the one in my city could be interesting.

There's also this community organization you can join after finishing the community academy, so I've been going to that too. It's a good way to keep in touch with people from the course and stay updated with how the city government is ran.

Health
I'm in the processing of switching to the whole food, plant-based diet. While this diet is vegan, I'm not going to be strict vegan, as I'll still eat animal products if I go out, at a friends, etc, but everything I cook will be WFPB. I'm doing this for the health benefits and to save money on food.

I've found that planning out what I'm going to eat everyday of the week has helped me break the habit of eating out all the time. If I don't plan it out in advance, I inevitably fall into the habit of eating out. But planning it out on Sunday and buying everything at once for the entire week is helping a lot.

My workout routine has fallen apart with my illness, so I'm attempting to start that up again. Unfortunately I still have a persistent cough, so my cardio has been limited. Hoping that goes away soon and I can start running again.

Lifestyle debt
My mental health fell apart during the pandemic, and while I'm doing much better now, I feel like I keep discovering all this lifestyle debt I wasn't even aware existed. My current focus is attempting to get my entire house decluttered and coming up with a proper routine for keeping it clean that I can actually stick to. This will probably be my main focus for July.

Rambling existential thoughts
I've come to the conclusion that most of my current problems are caused by boredom and my life being way too easy. Because I work from home, my job is about 20% the difficulty it used to be, and this has freed up a ton of time for me to do other things. But without the constraints of my old life, including things like forced socialization with coworkers, work taking up 90% of my time, and the lifescript/identity that provided, I've found that I've grown incredibly disconnected from ordinary life. It's harder to relate to people who are still occupied by these more mundane concerns. I do recognize that the position I'm in is a great privilege, but it's not without its own challenges.

I think some ERE/FIRE people who have this problem fill the void with the "collapse prep" stuff, and while that was a motivation for past me, present me is having a hard time staying engaged with that because I've started to just view overshoot/collapse as this inevitable natural cycle that all species and societies fall into at some point. I've fallen into this existential relativism hell that's making it really hard to set personal life goals or know where I want to go next. I sometimes feel like I'm just watching life unfold while not being a participant in it. And again, I think all of this is because my life is too easy.

I suppose I need to be willing to give up the illusion of total comfort/security that my current lifestyle provides me to reengage with life. I need challenge in my life again, which means I need to inject more discomfort and problems I have an actual chance of failing. It's incredibly hard to do that voluntarily when you've spent your entire life thus far accumulating security.

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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by jacob »

AnalyticalEngine wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:01 am
Rambling existential thoughts
I've come to the conclusion that most of my current problems are caused by boredom and my life being way too easy. Because I work from home, my job is about 20% the difficulty it used to be, and this has freed up a ton of time for me to do other things. But without the constraints of my old life, including things like forced socialization with coworkers, work taking up 90% of my time, and the lifescript/identity that provided, I've found that I've grown incredibly disconnected from ordinary life. It's harder to relate to people who are still occupied by these more mundane concerns. I do recognize that the position I'm in is a great privilege, but it's not without its own challenges.

I think some ERE/FIRE people who have this problem fill the void with the "collapse prep" stuff, and while that was a motivation for past me, present me is having a hard time staying engaged with that because I've started to just view overshoot/collapse as this inevitable natural cycle that all species and societies fall into at some point. I've fallen into this existential relativism hell that's making it really hard to set personal life goals or know where I want to go next. I sometimes feel like I'm just watching life unfold while not being a participant in it. And again, I think all of this is because my life is too easy.
Could it be that you've mainly been motivated by external goals and eventually conquered them? And now finding them mundane and too easy to reconquer them wondering if these are all the goals that life sets? Same thing over and over, leading to existential despair.

Once Plato's Cave is mastered, external goals fall away. Nobody is asking you to leave because society is still busy looking at the shadows. Nobody has an achievement ladder for the way out. You have to have this desire internally. One way to frame it is not the hero's journey but figuring out the cave and the journey outside.

The initial steps of adulting101 involves getting an education, moving out from home, and getting a job to pay the bills. Most people stop there or spend a lifetime to achieve it. Next steps would be adulting201, becoming FI and becoming more self-reliant (aka "prepping"). This is the tunnel to the surface. Adulting301 is connecting with others on a similar journey out of other caves. Adulting401 is establishing a new society/preparing the ground for the 22nd century on the surface outside the caves.
AnalyticalEngine wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:01 am
I suppose I need to be willing to give up the illusion of total comfort/security that my current lifestyle provides me to reengage with life. I need challenge in my life again, which means I need to inject more discomfort and problems I have an actual chance of failing. It's incredibly hard to do that voluntarily when you've spent your entire life thus far accumulating security.
Two ways to interpret this. One is to make it the current stage (like the cave) harder. To me, this seems silly and bordering on self-destructive. It's a waste of talent to deliberately try to voluntarily play the game at hard mode in order to avoid boredom. It's better to shoot for the next stage (out of the cave). In that sense, FI and self-reliance sets the stage to jump to the next stage.

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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by fingeek »

On existential thoughts:
Sounds like a similar situation to I! By "life is too easy" are you actually saying "I have no challenge. I'm not growing as an individual"? If so, this probably points to a personal value of Growth (or similar) that isn't being satisfied.

The other interesting question here is - what other value are you satisfying instead of Growth? In the behaviour/beliefs/values/purpose hierarchy, our behaviour is always (well, mostly) aligned with the few strongest values that drive us. If Growth was the strongest then you'd probably not be thinking about this, but seems like something else is driving your behaviour more strongly.

For me I started to realise that I satisfied Growth for a little while and so I stopped doing the crazy work thing/crazy own biz thing and focused instead on health, slowing down and burnout. Only more recently I feel like I'm satisfying that value and as such I'm getting the itch for Growth/challenge again. I wonder if any of this rings true for you?

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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

@Jacob - That's all a good point. I think I've conquered adulting101 and adulting201, and now I'm faced with no more meaningful challenges. Self-reliance can become a problem when it keeps you from engaging at a higher level. But the problem isn't things like FI or self-reliance; it's not moving up to the next challenge.

We are all given a window of experience that represents our lifespan, and rising to meet the challenges of that era is what engagement with that experience looks like. I've been thinking about that a lot lately as I watch people from the Bush era retire or become irrelevant, as 9/11 and the Iraq war were the prevailing crisis of my youth, and now that crisis is over and has become history. It's a bit surreal to watch the end of people's careers when those people that played a formative role in my adolescence. But 9/11 was the crisis of their day, and meeting that challenge is what defined their career/lives.

Perhaps what I need to do is engage with this climate crisis stuff at the next level. It's not really a black and white collapse crisis so much as a series of events that are going to shape people's lives for the next 100 years. Whatever that looks like, that's going to be the 9/11 that I have to navigate. Maybe learning to navigate that crisis for others rather than just myself is where the answer lies (adulting301 and adulting401).

This is something I'll have to ponder more, but this is definitely food for thought.

@fingeek - I absolutely do feel like I'm not being challenge and I'm not growing. I've reached this point where I have all these skills and nothing to do with them because I've solved the basic problems of my life so much.

I do think the value that was driving me before was a need for independence/self-reliance, and having found that now, the need for growth has returned. I do know when I first started to work from home, there was a pretty long decompression period where I had to recover from burnout. Now that I've recovered from that burnout, I do want more challenges in my life. They just have to be the right challenges that are meaningful and interesting.

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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by zbigi »

jacob wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:55 pm

The initial steps of adulting101 involves getting an education, moving out from home, and getting a job to pay the bills. Most people stop there or spend a lifetime to achieve it. Next steps would be adulting201, becoming FI and becoming more self-reliant (aka "prepping"). This is the tunnel to the surface. Adulting301 is connecting with others on a similar journey out of other caves. Adulting401 is establishing a new society/preparing the ground for the 22nd century on the surface outside the caves.
In the Twitter version of the above, you added "Adulting301: Learn to rely on yourself, not the economy". Can you elaborate? I mean, I don't think there's a single person on earth who can survive without relying on either the economy or their tribe (for people still living in tribes in the wild). So, perhaps it should be "learn to rely MORE on yourself, and LESS on the economy"? But, then - to what exent?

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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I think many/most people would have it as Adulting 201: Start your own family, Adulting 301: Your own kids achieve Adulting 101, Adulting 401: Rough mix of Grandparenting, Great-Grandparenting and decline into the Amorality of Old Age :lol:

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