AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

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zbigi
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by zbigi »

lightfruit55 wrote:
Thu Jul 14, 2022 7:21 pm

I find myself ruminating on my similar job situation. It's generally easy, pays well, etc, but it more or less feels like passing/doing (dare I say) time.
Feels same for me, but I think that's ok. Unless the accumulation phase is another 10+ years for you (in which case it's not really ERE...), then everything working as designed - do your time and get out. Some people have the energy to pursue other things while working, while others, like me, just find themselves drained by work. I choose to not beat myself up by it that much (because if I do, I will get antsy to quit the job, and that's not good).

AnalyticalEngine
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

@Ego - I suppose one needs to define what "make it" means, and that definition may or may not include commercial success. Although your comment got me thinking that I've never even tried to "make it" so I'm jumping to conclusions when I just assume writing as a post-work venture will be pointless.

I think I'll come up with some next steps of what taking writing more seriously looks like.

@zbigi - I suppose this is really just the Wheaton levels in actions, but this comment makes me realize how much I've just internalized FI/WL5 fundamentals to the point I don't even see them as significant any more. So this dilemma with work I find myself in now is by design. I wouldn't be having this existential crisis if I hadn't already saved the full FI money.

Even with my cushy WFH job, it does still drain my energy. I have to be online during work hours and I do still have intellectual work to do that drains my energy for other intellectual endeavors (writing). I suppose it's really only after going through the ERE journey that you can look back and say "I could have done this sooner." But it's less that one could have done it sooner and more that the journey changes you into the type of person who could have done it sooner, and you weren't that person when you started.

zbigi
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by zbigi »

AnalyticalEngine wrote:
Fri Jul 15, 2022 9:34 am

Even with my cushy WFH job, it does still drain my energy. I have to be online during work hours and I do still have intellectual work to do that drains my energy for other intellectual endeavors (writing). I suppose it's really only after going through the ERE journey that you can look back and say "I could have done this sooner." But it's less that one could have done it sooner and more that the journey changes you into the type of person who could have done it sooner, and you weren't that person when you started.
Also, until you've actually lived the no-job ERE lifestyle for a while, this whole thing is basically an experiment (or even just mental gymnastics, as the experiment will only start once you quit the job). As with all experiments, it's good to err on the side out caution, i.e. better to oversave than to undersave.

AnalyticalEngine
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

I also think that, because ERE is an individualist philosophy, it can be easy to overlook the role environment/background plays in making it work. For example, there are plenty of people who spend $11k/year and live in poverty, but poverty is definitely not ERE. The main difference is that poverty weakens the entire community, so if you come from an impoverished background, you might be doing all the "ERE activities" like eating at home and fixing your neighbor's sink, but it isn't the same thing at all because you are forced to trade favors for survival and it isn't a choice. You don't really have the option to walk away from bad social capital in poverty because those connections ensure your survival, but they can also harm you and cause ongoing issues that you don't have the stability to work through. (Ie, you have to have roommates because you can't afford anything else but your roommate uses all the gas in your car and now you can't get to work so you get fired)

This is a vastly different experience from working in corporate for 10 years, making connections with other people who have been filtered to have the capacity to work at corporate (giving you a network of people who are Kegan3/4 instead of Kegan2/3), paying your house off, then spending $11k/year living in the nice part of the city where there's social stability and it's easier to make connections/find serendipity.

Having that cushion of cash and the middle/upper class socialization/safety net enables you to go find actual serendipity and not fall victim to your roommate using all the gas in the car.

Now obviously you can get carried away with this and get trapped in one more year syndrome/illusion of safety, but also, don't forget to make hay while the sun is shining either.

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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by jacob »

The spectrum analyzer of skills in the ERE book (figs 2.1 and fig 2.2 as well as chapter 4, section 4.1) which is rudimentarily shown in Stoa1 as well explains what's going on.

A middle class consumer has a narrow spike in skills called their job which pays for all the underdeveloped capitals below the line---that's almost all of them. If the average of all these skills combined is higher than 0, the person is doing okay. If it is not, the person is struggling.

For example, job loss is an immediate problem. The government will fix this by throwing money at it, but since consumers are terribly inefficient spenders, this is expensive. It costs 2-4x to generate the same quality of living in a someone with broadly negative capital (consumer) as someone with broadly positive capital (renaissance person). It is a matter of leveraging dollars with broad skills.

The "rural poor" (maybe we can find a better term?) have a positive spike in social capital (family and friends) that make up for A LOT of a smaller job-spike. THIS is why they are stuck in location. If they move away, they go from doing okay to poverty.

The idea of accumulating more money is to replace the job spike with an investment spike. This transfers the risk to the investments spike but it is still a spike subject to change.

Recommendation: Reread chaps 2 and 4. I did not cover poverty in the book---it's a touchy subject---but it fits within the spectrum model.

AnalyticalEngine
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

Thanks for the clarification, Jacob, I'll reread those chapters. It sounds like a big part of ERE is learning to recreate the social capital spikes from rural/pre-modern communities within a modern/postmodern context so you aren't falling victim to a bad social network without the ability to move because you lack capital elsewhere (recreating social capital at the community level is a Kegan5 skill(?)).

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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by jacob »

AnalyticalEngine wrote:
Fri Jul 15, 2022 1:49 pm
It sounds like a big part of ERE is learning to recreate the social capital spikes from rural/pre-modern communities within a modern/postmodern context so you aren't falling victim to a bad social network without the ability to move because you lack capital elsewhere (recreating social capital at the community level is a Kegan5 skill(?)).
I almost agree. It's not that "rural poverty" has a bad social network, in fact "ride and die" is a great network. The problem is being totally reliant on it, that is, having only 1 form of capital with everything else being a liability below the line. This forces being stuck in traditionalist contexts. Yet this is not where the world is anymore or where it's going, so this makes it extra hard to generate other kinds of capital. Basically, they're afraid to leave the valley for the same reason that specialized consumers are afraid to quit their job. It's an entirely justifiable strategy when all your eggs are in a precariously balanced basket. Unfortunately this leads to doubling down on the 1 skill.

Western Red Cedar
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by Western Red Cedar »

AnalyticalEngine wrote:
Fri Jul 15, 2022 9:34 am
@Ego - I suppose one needs to define what "make it" means, and that definition may or may not include commercial success. Although your comment got me thinking that I've never even tried to "make it" so I'm jumping to conclusions when I just assume writing as a post-work venture will be pointless.

I think I'll come up with some next steps of what taking writing more seriously looks like.
Based on what you've shared here, I think you are a really strong writer. I would spend a lot of time thinking about the above. I've listened to quite a few interviews with different writers who struggled with moving the goalposts when it comes to success. This is often reinforced by the publishing industry, who often have at least slightly different motives than the writers. Most of them had multiple books on the NY Times bestsellers list, but their craft and identity got caught up on the hedonic treadmill.

I think one of the benefits of pursuing writing when FI is that it limits a lot of the pressure to chase commercial success. You can stay true to your voice and vision. You also have the opportunity to write somewhere online and build an audience, which removes some of the necessity of finding a publisher and an agent. The balance of power has shifted in the writing world. You may have much more success getting your work to an audience by avoiding the traditional gatekeepers.

AnalyticalEngine
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

@Western Red Cedar - Thank you. I've found this forum has helped my writing abilities because I'm constantly trying to capture my life for a specific audience. It's a good writing exercise.

And this is also a good point about the publishing industry. Writing is a bit of a dicey thing to go into if you're expecting to make millions because the books that do very well tend to be highly filtered by both the publishing industry and what audiences want to read. It means you're often forced to write for a very general audience, which might not be fulfilling.

I'll have to think about how to build an audience myself. I've written stuff before for just friends, so I think looking at building appeal outside of that is important.

AnalyticalEngine
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

(I decided this post was too personal)

theanimal
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by theanimal »

I think you're making good decisions with regards to being intentional about what environment you put yourself in. Certain environments foster different social interactions that are difficult to overcome. For example, a bar is often loud and full of people who are inhibited or on their way to inhibition. Generally, this is not a place for any conversation or relation beyond surface level talk as it's just not possible. The setting dictates the message. This also reminds me of the general advice that people give when dating (or at least used to before the apps), go where the people you want to be around go. If you want to be around/find people who drink a lot, go to a bar. If you want to be around people who play sports, go to the park. etc etc.

Famously, Peter Thiel eschews small talk of any kind and just brings up deep topics and ideas that he wants to talk about. You could try doing that. Continue to take an active role initially in your social relations, not letting others have the chance to typecast you and then have to fulfill their idea of you.

ertyu
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by ertyu »

Hey @AE, following up on your post on the depression books thread, would you mind linking me to your post where you talk about Plotkin's method for dealing with emotions? I'm curious but wasn't able to locate the post browsing through the last couple of pages. Thanks!

ertyu
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by ertyu »

AnalyticalEngine wrote:
Mon Jun 06, 2022 3:02 pm

this ... belief that I'm not allowed to actually exist...that life is for other people to live, but because I am uniquely flawed
oooof came here to have fun but im feeling so attacked right now

AnalyticalEngine
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

theanimal wrote:
Fri Jul 22, 2022 12:17 pm
The setting dictates the message. This also reminds me of the general advice that people give when dating (or at least used to before the apps), go where the people you want to be around go. If you want to be around/find people who drink a lot, go to a bar. If you want to be around people who play sports, go to the park. etc etc.
This is wise, and I think this is a mistake I've historically made. If I keep going to things like the bar/gaming groups/etc, I think these things tend to attract people who are attempting to avoid life in some capacity. (Obviously that's a generalization, not everyone into gaming is trying to avoid life, but enough people are using alcohol/games to avoid dealing with their problems, so that's who you're more likely to run into here)

Whereas this morning, I went to an early morning yoga class, and the demographic there was nearly the exact opposite of the bar. I'm going to be more mindful of the venue.

Along the same lines as being typecasted, I also notice that people might use you as a temporary hangout friend or bar friend then forget you when they meet someone else they'd rather hang out with. (Ie, the classic "my best friend dumped me for this girlfriend" phenomena that I'm sure everyone experiences at least once) I don't really think there's a problem with being a transient/pleasure/utility friend, but it's helpful to at least be cognizant of the role you might be playing in someone else's life before you become too invested/give more than you can expect to receive back.

Given that Adulting 401 is finding people on the same path as you, and given that FI/ERE isn't a "normal social role," I think finding people on this path in your daily life is going to require a lot more intentional behavior than finding drinking buddies. Being mindful of the environment is an important part of that.

AnalyticalEngine
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

ertyu wrote:
Fri Jul 22, 2022 11:52 pm
Hey @AE, following up on your post on the depression books thread, would you mind linking me to your post where you talk about Plotkin's method for dealing with emotions? I'm curious but wasn't able to locate the post browsing through the last couple of pages. Thanks!
This is something we've discussed in the MMG but I don't think I've written about it directly in the journal. I'll get into it now.

Basically, Plotkin combines several aspects of psychology and religious practices into what he calls "wholing." This is the practice of overcoming all your past traumas and then finding where you fit into the world (what he calls the 'spirit niche'). His approach is therefore based on a very wide range of practices but something he pulled together himself. I've found it useful because he uses the same "consciousness hacking" techniques that religious practices/therapy makes use of but in an entirely nature-based context. I've found the nature-based context useful because it avoids all the historical baggage that most other religions have, and is entirely secular, but still sort of a spiritual practice.

Anyway, the main thing I've done with Plotkin so far is the subpersonality work. Plotkin defines these subpersonalities as unhealthy responses you learned from trauma that resurface in your daily life and cause maladaptive behavior. The idea is to identify each subpersonality then "welcome them home" to help resolve the internal conflict. The subpersonalities are a useful tool for resolving inner conflicts because you can project aspects of your psyche onto them which makes the actual act of identification and resolution a lot clearer.

I'll give you a specific example of what I did and how it helped me. Note that I mix Plotkin's subpersonality work with more Jungian methods, and my own technique is a bit of a hybrid.

Over quarantine, I found that my depression got really bad, and I was having a very difficult time with self-care. I would often stay up too late, not eat properly, be exhausted all of the time, and was generally in a really bad place. This was made worse by a toxic job environment that I was having a hard time leaving because of my generally awful mental health otherwise.

What I did to get out of this was to identify one subpersonality that was surfacing that kept me in that situation (let's call him F). I got in contact with F by naming the subpersonality, drawing what I thought he would look like, and then writing some journal entries from his perspective. He started to manifest to me as this burnt out office worker who was addicted to coffee and had such a nihilistic perspective on life that he stopped trying to do anything about his problems. I was, of course, projecting my issues onto this fictional representation of part of myself, and that act of projection made me more aware of the beliefs I held about work.

I then tried to get in touch with a "mature" facet of myself that Plotkin calls the "nurturing generative adult." (NGA) I did the same thing that I did with F, mainly, named that facet of myself, drew what I thought she would look like, wrote journal entries from her perspective, etc. The NGA facet is supposed to be the part of yourself that is capable of healing/mentoring others, etc.

Once I had these two characters developed that were a manifestation of my internal state, I would try to imagine them in dialogue every time I ran into an issue that seemed like it was stemming from F's internal conflict. So if I had gotten negative feedback at work and was starting down an anxiety spiral, instead of getting carried away with that train of thought, I would try to imagine what my NGA would say to F in order to help him resolve the situation.

This was pretty surreal at first because the imagined dialogue would involve my NGA and F being mad at each other, arguing, and having a lot of internal conflict. I had to work through that for a few days simply by listening to what the conflict was. However, as I started to do that, I realized the reason F was so mad was because he felt like my NGA kept gaslighting him with faux positivity instead of being honest about how he/I actually felt about work. My NGA then stopped trying to give F advice and simply listen to how he felt about work.

As strange as this sounds, after I did that, a lot of the internal conflict F was feeling went away. F was mad because the job felt pointless, my boss wasn't treating me fairly, and other normal features of toxic work environments. F felt completely powerless in this situation because the NGA kept gaslighting him/me about how he/I felt about the situation, and it was that internal gaslighting that was making me unable to actually quit the job or do something about the situation.

So after that, my NGA recognized that F's negative feelings about the job were valid, and I was able to quit and find a new job.

Another example was I had a very difficult time with social anxiety after covid. I was finding it very difficult to talk to anyone or find the desire to socialize. So I did a similar exercise. I tried to imagine the subpersonality who was afraid to socialized, and she started to manifest to me as this sad girl who was petrified to take up space or make any of her emotional needs known. So I did a similar exercise with my NGA and her, except instead of arguing, this conversation manifested as my NGA making my subpersonality feel welcomed and feel okay in expressing her needs. And after I did this exercise, I found it much easier to go talk to people again.

I've now developed a routine practice where I make a daily habit of checking in with myself and my subpersonalities and see how they're doing. I also try to identify new subpersonalities as new emotional conflicts arise. I've noticed that as I start to resolve internal conflicts, more conflicts that were buried beneath the surface begin to arise, and I find new subpersonalities to go with them. For example, after I resolved the two conflicts above, I found a source of extreme anger that was hidden under the nihilism and anxiety, and I'm in the middle of doing a similar resolution with the anger that I did the others.

When I first started doing this, it actually messed up my sense of identity for awhile because I realized I had turned these internal conflicts into my identity/personality. Plotkin is therefore helpful in actually grounding you in something beyond yourself (nature) so that you don't make your mental health worse by ruminating on subpersonality conflicts.

ertyu
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by ertyu »

Thank you for writing this out, this was clear and I see how it makes sense. I see he's written a couple of books, which one would you recommend i start with?

When I do similar, I simply get in touch with the emotion itself without assigning it a personalization. I wonder whether this is fine, or whether personalizing helps with de-identification.

AnalyticalEngine
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

I'd suggest starting with Wild Mind, as that's the book where he outlines the subpersonality framework. He has quite a few exercises in there to identify subpersonalities and work with them. The general idea behind his work is to resolve much of your internal trauma (Wild Mind) then find your spirit niche (Journey of Soul Initiation). I view resolving the internal trauma as freedom from and the spirit niche as freedom to.

His practice is more nature-based than what I did. I ended up using a lot of artistic techniques for mine because that's what I'm trained in, but the general principle is the same.

AnalyticalEngine
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

ertyu wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 4:59 pm
When I do similar, I simply get in touch with the emotion itself without assigning it a personalization. I wonder whether this is fine, or whether personalizing helps with de-identification.
It's important to find what works for you because everyone is different. The most important aspect of the therapy for me was it forced me to start being engaged with my own life and emotions again, and that lead to me making the lifestyle changes that I needed to make in order to fix the depression. This subpersonality work was also combined with lots of traditional journaling and major changes with my diet/exercise. However, I don't think I would have come nearly as far without the personification because it made clear to me a lot of beliefs I had that I wasn't even cognizant of.

The personification also does help with de-identification, and it helps you get around the tendency to make traits in yourself seem worse or better than they actually are. It's easier to judge behavior in others than behavior in yourself, so that part was useful.

AnalyticalEngine
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

Some brief observations after pondering this for a week:

1. Your social life is an extension of the activities you're doing
2. Most of the activities I've done in my life have been a blind extension of work or school
3. What is limiting me from doing new activities is time, network, and skill, not money
4. I am reaching the upper bound of my ability to "buy fun"
5. Activities on meetup attract a certain type of person
6. Activities on meetup are only a small subset of all possible activities
7. Therefore the people on meetup are only a small subset of all possible people
8. Meeting interesting people therefore is going to require I up my skill level to go out "in the wild" and find cool stuff that's not being advertised

How to accomplish #8 is now something I will think about.

shaz
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by shaz »

You might find it useful to read about the different types of intimacy (relevant to friendships as well as romantic relationships). To me, it sounds like you are describing struggles with experiential intimacy. Maybe one of the other types of intimacy would be easier for you and lead to friendships more easily. For instance, for some people, spiritual intimacy comes most easily and they make friends at church. For other people, creative intimacy is more natural and they make friends most easily through something like a writers group. Experiential intimacy comes most easily for me so I make most of my friends through sports or gaming. It's another dimension to consider when you are looking for the right activities to connect you with the right people.

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