AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

[fingeek]

Yay, sounds like you've more fully walked out of your own version of Plato's cave - Enjoy!

[AnalyticalEngine]

Thanks everyone! It's been a lot of personal work, and I hope the sharing of my journey has been useful to others in a similar situation.

One thing I'm a little bit on the fence with right now is how much to prioritize money. I've hit my leanFIRE number (750k), and at this point, I have the choice to either cash out or to keep going for fatFIRE. This choice is made difficult by the fact my job is stupidly easy for how much they pay me, but I also don't know how stable that situation is nor if working at a stupid easy job for money is really the best use of my life at this point. Working from home is pretty damned isolating and I'm also not sure if continuing it is a good idea for building community. On the other hand, most corporate jobs are kind of a losing proposition, if we're honest.

Cashing out now is going to close the door on some opportunities, such as saving for a nice house in the insane Denver market. My dream housing situation is to get a mid-century modern house and fix it up in the style of the time. These are expensive in Denver, and also more money makes it easier to fatFIRE travel.

On the other hand, quitting now gives me relative youth to do some things that may be harder later. Like I could decide to go teach English in Poland, for instance, and live there and learn Polish while the money compounds even more.

It's a bit hard to know the future once you're reached the runaway point of your net worth. If we go with money doubling every 7 years, this means I'll have $1.5 million by the time I'm 40 and $3 million by the time I'm 47 and $6 million by the time I'm 54 and at that point, I think I might be able to afford three mid-century modern houses.

On the other hand, maybe the stock market crashes and we all die in nuclear fire and/or I get eaten by a tiger that escapes my rich neighbor's backyard. The future is, after all, impossible to predict, and putting all my eggs in "infinite index funds" basket seems unwise. And yet, I also don't want to get caught up in doomerism/scarcity mindset, because that's held me back in the past. Living with the mindset of "the world is going to end so I need to hoard things" is not great.

I'm also only 33 once and I don't know how much I want to be withering away inside corporate, even if they pay me over six figures to work 14 hours a week.

These are all good problems to have, but it's a lot to think about and plan for.

[zbigi]

On the other hand, quitting now gives me relative youth to do some things that may be harder later. Like I could decide to go teach English in Poland, for instance, and live there and learn Polish while the money compounds even more.

The foreigners who do that in Poland seem to enjoy it. It seems like an easy gig, you get to meet lots of reasonable people (they're usually young adults who want to improve themselves, so not a bad baseline). The pay is probably a small fraction of what you could make with coding even in Poland, but that's the price of a lifestyle change. OTOH, if I were you, I'd try something less radical first. If you're feeling isolated now, moving to a foreign culture where people speak a foreign language is probably not going to help.

[lightfruit55]

By "cash out", I assume you mean quitting your job? I'm no role model but it's always easier outside looking in, so just wanted to chime in to caution against binary thinking. There's always an option to go back to some sort of paid work, be it full-time, part-time, seasonal, higher or lower paying, etc.

[AnalyticalEngine]

@zbigi - Thanks for the insight. It's always good to get feedback from people who are actually there. Realistically, I do want to spend some time abroad, particularly in Europe for the history, but it's going to make more sense to do a few weeks of plain old travel there first to see the area. This is why I want to start prototyping some lifestyle change because the feedback is important. Who knows what I'll think when I'm actually there, so a smaller change is a better way to test it.

There's also a few options for an abroad experience. I could teach English, enroll in study abroad, even work there as a programmer or just go with no job and hang out. I do know some of the more formal programs try to structure themselves to give you more "built in" friends or network, since being an expat is obviously hard and isolating, so I suppose it depends on what I'm looking for. Either way, probably best to just go on some trips first to clear the picture.

@lightfruit55 - what I mean by cashing out is specifically quitting programming. Its really hard to walk away from making over $100k when you know most other jobs you could do will only pay a fraction of that. Realistically, I'm so young that I doubt I'll never work again. But I am trading a known entity for an unknown one that will probably pay less, so that's the hard part. Although I do agree its important to avoid binary thinking.

[Jin+Guice]

I could write about this for paragraphs, but I'm going to spare everyone the words and just say the mistake I was making socially was the same fucking mistake I was making at work. Mainly, I assumed everything was going to suck, and so it did suck because I wasn't taking action to get myself out of situations that sucked or actively look for situations that are enjoyable.

This is huge. It seems to me that this supersedes all other social problems you have written about?

I'm glad you've figured it out, because if you approach anything with this attitude, you are going to fail.



But now you're asking an open ended question about money. I can tell you that you should leave if you're not happy. I can tell you that $750k lean FIRE means you also have a lot of fat to cut out (no pressure... don't do ERE out of shame!) I can second the opinion that you are viewing the choice to quit as a more binary decision than it likely is.

I can offer semi-ERE solutions of extended sabbaticals or part-time work or changing careers on a temporary basis.

But I'm not sure any of that will matter if you don't have a purpose. Is work holding you back from the life you want to lead? It's not impossible that it is, but based on what I've read of your journal, it doesn't seem that way to me.

Like approaching social interaction with a negative attitude, not having a strong freedom to will supersede any money problems you face.

Based on what you've written, it seems like staying in your job while you explore what you want is an option? What are you FIREing to? What is the thing you want that your job is getting in the way of? Having an easy high paying job while you figure out what you want is a good thing. The thing to internalize is perhaps not that you must leave so that happiness finds you, but that you CAN leave whenever you want if you determine how doing so will lead you to happiness.

What do you think? I hate to encourage someone to work more, but I also don't hear a strong freedom-to? Am I missing it?

[AnalyticalEngine]

But now you're asking an open ended question about money. I can tell you that you should leave if you're not happy. I can tell you that $750k lean FIRE means you also have a lot of fat to cut out (no pressure... don't do ERE out of shame!) I can second the opinion that you are viewing the choice to quit as a more binary decision than it likely is.

$750k is pretty fat by ERE standards, I agree. But I've actually made an intentional choice to worry less about my budget as I make this transition because I've found that I start to hyperfocus on spending $10 on chicken breasts when there are way bigger problems in my life that. It's really more about escaping the scarcity mindset because I've found that mindset is limiting me more at the moment.

That is, I get caught in the loop of "I hate my job, better lock myself inside to eat lentils and save money" when this is completely the wrong approach.

But I'm not sure any of that will matter if you don't have a purpose. Is work holding you back from the life you want to lead? It's not impossible that it is, but based on what I've read of your journal, it doesn't seem that way to me.

The main problem with work right now is that it just creates an environment that isn't good for me. This is specifically working from home, which I'm finding encourages isolation and ruminating on all of my problems. I also just really don't enjoy programming any more and I'm largely just here for the money.

Of course, finding a different programming job, one that might be in person and have more mentoring and a greater opportunity to learn other skills is an option. I'm just concerned that I would be avoiding make the more significant changes that I need to make (aka switch careers basically) if I go this route, especially because that sort of job would be way more time consuming and a large reason I've been able to work through some of my issues recently is that I've had the time and space to do so.

Based on what you've written, it seems like staying in your job while you explore what you want is an option? What are you FIREing to? What is the thing you want that your job is getting in the way of? Having an easy high paying job while you figure out what you want is a good thing. The thing to internalize is perhaps not that you must leave so that happiness finds you, but that you CAN leave whenever you want if you determine how doing so will lead you to happiness.

That actually is my more realistic life plan. Especially once I get the house sold, I have more location freedom and can try different things.

There is one thing that might put off some people on the forum, which I have avoided writing about, but it's that I think I might not use ERE as a framework when making these choices. It's not that I disagree with ERE, but I'm finding all these abstractions and freedom-to and purpose etc are getting in the way of me actually living my life. This is largely a function of my personality and the fact I've spent a lot of time theorizing in the past, so I'm trying at this point to just move in the direction of taking concrete action and prototyping different life changes. I believe environment has been driving my behavior over the past 7 or so years, so the goal here is to try different environments and see how they change what I do.

[grundomatic]

I asked a British expat working in China what he liked about it. His answer, as I interpreted it, was essentially that he felt like he escaped the facebook/instagram/overworking culture back home. I pointed out how a similar culture exists in China, but he said he was exempt from that being a foreigner. He liked that his friends had time and money to eat out or go drinking on a Tuesday, which he said would never happen back home. Having done a study abroad program, my experience was similar in that my lifestyle was neither like it was back home nor like the lifestyle of the host country. It's possible that going abroad might give you the space to "find yourself", as they say.

I'll now offer the kinda green, improv-inspired counter perspective to the strategist take that's predominant around here. There is no wrong answer. If you work a little longer, I doubt 40-year-old AE will regret having a cool million in the bank. If you straight up quit and go engage in a bunch of youthful nonsense for a couple years, I doubt 40-year-old AE will regret that either. There's a wealth of variety in between. You are safe to just pick something and try it. You are young and wealthy. How about the freedom to just try a bunch of stuff out? Or to just make a decision based on pure enjoyment?

[AnalyticalEngine]

I asked a British expat working in China what he liked about it. His answer, as I interpreted it, was essentially that he felt like he escaped the facebook/instagram/overworking culture back home. I pointed out how a similar culture exists in China, but he said he was exempt from that being a foreigner. He liked that his friends had time and money to eat out or go drinking on a Tuesday, which he said would never happen back home. Having done a study abroad program, my experience was similar in that my lifestyle was neither like it was back home nor like the lifestyle of the host country. It's possible that going abroad might give you the space to "find yourself", as they say.

That's actually really interesting. I could see how being a foreigner exempts you from normative Kegan3 social expectations to some extent. You aren't from there and so people don't expect you to act like you are. That outsider status can create space to engage socially in other ways.

I'll now offer the kinda green, improv-inspired counter perspective to the strategist take that's predominant around here. There is no wrong answer. If you work a little longer, I doubt 40-year-old AE will regret having a cool million in the bank. If you straight up quit and go engage in a bunch of youthful nonsense for a couple years, I doubt 40-year-old AE will regret that either. There's a wealth of variety in between. You are safe to just pick something and try it. You are young and wealthy. How about the freedom to just try a bunch of stuff out? Or to just make a decision based on pure enjoyment?

Honestly, this is the direction I've been leaning in lately. Especially because I spent my 20s bee lining toward FIRE instead of doing the normal 20s thing of messing around and trying things. I'm starting to feel like I just need to try new things I've never done before in order to develop a clearer idea of what I even want.

I think this might be something that's hard for forumites who don't share my religious background to understand, but growing up Mormon, literally everything you can do is so constrained and limited that you get taught you aren't allowed to try things and need to follow the very strict script. Growing up that way, it makes it hard to imagine what you could do because you are taught to deny your own agency and your own ability to know what you want. Because of this background, I feel like I never developed my skill of choosing to do things for my own enjoyment. I think the direction of growth for me honestly looks like learning to relax, try things, and be more improv in my approach to life.

[Jin+Guice]

There is one thing that might put off some people on the forum, which I have avoided writing about, but it's that I think I might not use ERE as a framework when making these choices.

It's interesting that you see ERE as limiting possibilities, bc to me the point of ERE is that it expands possibilities. That is also my point with semi-ERE... learning that frugality is not suffering, but merely giving up things you don't need, means that you are already free, given the abundance of resources that surround us.

I agree with @grundomatic that it doesn't actually matter what you do and you will be fine either way. THAT is freedom.

Perhaps purpose is too strong of a word. Freedom-to fuck around is valid. Freedom-from an awful situation is valid.

I get concerned when people are like "my job is ok but does not fulfill me, so if I quit I will find fulfillment."

The stash should expand optionality. Frugality should expand optionality. If the job that is being quit is easy and lucrative, then the above person forfeits optionality for... ????

Don't optimize. I can't tell you that $x gives you y optionality so z misery is endurable until you find a% of purpose. Shoot from the heart. You can afford it!

[macg]

I'm also only 33 once and I don't know how much I want to be withering away inside corporate, even if they pay me over six figures to work 14 hours a week.

If I was getting paid over six figures to work only 14 hours a week, it would take a heck of a lot to not just do that for the few years that it would take to bank all the money I would ever need in my life.

Even talking about isolation of working from home, or the urge to travel, etc, all that can be fixed/done in the other 154 hours free a week.

[AnalyticalEngine]

It's interesting that you see ERE as limiting possibilities, bc to me the point of ERE is that it expands possibilities. That is also my point with semi-ERE... learning that frugality is not suffering, but merely giving up things you don't need, means that you are already free, given the abundance of resources that surround us.

This is the healthy way to view ERE, definitely. My issue with it is that I've been using it as my only hammer without really considering other paradigms, and so combined with my internal issues, it's too easy for me to use ERE as an excuse not to do anything. I'm trying to break out of scarcity mindset and monetary limitations mindset, so operating without the ERE paradigm is going to help with growth. I think it's probably different when people come to ERE later in life or from a place of greater emotional balance.

What I have been focusing on instead is minimalism and Jungian psychology and also like, you know, actually doing things instead of just writing about it.

Perhaps purpose is too strong of a word. Freedom-to fuck around is valid. Freedom-from an awful situation is valid.

I get concerned when people are like "my job is ok but does not fulfill me, so if I quit I will find fulfillment."

The stash should expand optionality. Frugality should expand optionality. If the job that is being quit is easy and lucrative, then the above person forfeits optionality for... ????

Don't optimize. I can't tell you that $x gives you y optionality so z misery is endurable until you find a% of purpose. Shoot from the heart. You can afford it!

"Quitting to find fulfillment" is definitely something I want to avoid, I agree. That kind of mindset is the pathology I'm trying to avoid now. It's more like I don't really need this job so I'm trying to decide how long working here for the money is worth it. Realistically, I'm going to keep working here while I do some more self-growth and prototyping (or management changes and the job starts to suck, which is always a risk with corporate). Once I find a prototype I like, after I've explored more options, I can just quit and move onto whatever else is new.

Really, the main things in my life I'm focusing on right now are healing (from the depression and its associated lifestyle/personal history causes), full emotional presence in moment (no more escapism/dissociation), connection with others, and new experiences (the prototypes).

[Jin+Guice]

Scarcity mindset is a risk factor of ERE!

For the record I do whatever I want whenever I want and I buy whatever I want. For me, buying a bunch of stuff is not that interesting or fun, learning how to do stuff is interesting and fun, and in most circumstances, figuring out how to do things for cheaper is a fun game. i still struggle to escape the scarcity mindset (which I would call "being cheap" and not "being frugal") sometimes.

[sodatrain]

Hi! I've been reading some of your thread AE and it's great. Thoughtful and and vulnerability you shared here is great! I hope you have felt welcome and supported with it all.

...This choice is made difficult by the fact my job is stupidly easy for how much they pay me, but I also don't know how stable that situation is nor if working at a stupid easy job for money is really the best use of my life at this point.

I'm newer to the forum and not super active. But! I had been struggling with this exact situation for a while. Golden Handcuffs. I didn't feel ready to pull the trigger for FIRE (l have less than you have accumulated) and the effort to salary ratio was crazy. I got laid off... so they took the golden handcuffs off for me. Which is great.

I'm taking some time off to just exist and think.

When I start to think about income again I find myself thinking I could go about it in 3 different ways. 1) Back to the old type tech work. Yuck. I don't want to but the pay is great. 2) Some independent/contract work maybe. Less yuck, way less pay. 3) Find ways to scrape together enough money thru my (planned) activities and interests.

I'd encourage you to think about taking a break for a few months+. Programmers are still in high demand. You can always earn more if you need to. It sounds like the benefits of not suffering thru the corp job/working at home struggles will be very beneficial to you.

I'm recently laid off (and used to live in Denver) so I'm well aware of the CoL and the stress that can come from knowing the temptation of that easy work/salary vs taking the leap that you want to! You have a community to support you here

[AnalyticalEngine]

Thanks, @sodatrain. I'm always glad when this journal can be useful to others.

I'm newer to the forum and not super active. But! I had been struggling with this exact situation for a while. Golden Handcuffs. I didn't feel ready to pull the trigger for FIRE (l have less than you have accumulated) and the effort to salary ratio was crazy. I got laid off... so they took the golden handcuffs off for me. Which is great.

I'm taking some time off to just exist and think.

Definitely relate to the golden handcuffs issue. I think, actually, this is one major of weakness of the FIRE movement. That is, you need to live this salaryman lifestyle for 10-20 years then you're expected to somehow reverse all the mental damage and programming the lifestyle did to you the instant you hit your number. But after doing the same thing thing for so long, reversing it isn't really that easy. I think this is one reason so many people, including myself, start to develop one more year syndrome.

This is opposed to ERE, in which you view your job simply as one node in a web of goals that you later just cut out. I've been trying to switch to this paradigm mentally.

But that's also why I start to run into conflict with my current lifestyle. Even though I'm overpaid and do little work, it's the salaryman lifestyle that's the problem. Between work, driving to the gym, driving to get groceries, driving to meetups to spend money at the bar, etc, I still don't really have time to do the things I want to do. Everything in my life is so compartmentalized because that's how the modern economy works. You do X in Y location then drive around to do Z. [1]

But this is the FIRE trap, and it's why many people end up getting sucked into fatFIRE from leanFIRE because you can throw money at all of these problems to solve them, and working for 10 more years in order to have money as the infinite solvent is tempting.

That's why I suggested teaching English in Poland as a random lifestyle idea that would meet many items on my web of goals without all this compartmentalization and waste. These programs usually are structured so you're hanging out with other expats in some sort of group setting, so you have built-in friends, and then my socializing, work, housing, trying to learn a new language, etc is all combined into a single lifestyle instead of driving around in circles trying to meet all my needs in isolation.[2]

When I start to think about income again I find myself thinking I could go about it in 3 different ways. 1) Back to the old type tech work. Yuck. I don't want to but the pay is great. 2) Some independent/contract work maybe. Less yuck, way less pay. 3) Find ways to scrape together enough money thru my (planned) activities and interests.

I'd encourage you to think about taking a break for a few months+. Programmers are still in high demand. You can always earn more if you need to. It sounds like the benefits of not suffering thru the corp job/working at home struggles will be very beneficial to you.

I'm recently laid off (and used to live in Denver) so I'm well aware of the CoL and the stress that can come from knowing the temptation of that easy work/salary vs taking the leap that you want to! You have a community to support you here

Thanks for sharing your experience with this. I agree a sabbatical is not a bad idea. Certainly, no work would force me to be a little more creative with my lifestyle design instead of falling into the FIRE trap of relying too much on money to solve every problem.

[1] This is, incidentally, another reason socializing can be a little joyless at times. Everyone is so damned busy that the only thing to do is shove happy hours into my schedule at 1830, which is not ideal. As opposed to when I worked in the office and built comradery at work, or in college where making friends is easy because you all live together in a giant dorm. Living alone, working from home, driving to the bar, and hanging out for two hours really isn't sufficient for my relationship needs, but American adult life (especially in the suburbs) is built around this because everyone works all of the time. Obviously, I need a more structure change.

[2] This isn't really my only solution, I just suggest things to force me to think outside of the box. More realistically, I'd want to learn to solve these problems in America where it's easier because I'm from here first.