AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

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AnalyticalEngine
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

@ertyu - I do think that's a useful way to frame the problem, and I do agree. What I'm hoping for is making some environmental changes that make "recruiting" people easier. But in the past, I have actually had the most success being the one to lead things, so it is a useful paradigm.

This goes back to something I said before where I feel like the problem is I am waiting for a role model or someone else to solve this lifestyle problem for me, which is just not a good way to approach it because my temperament is niche and I have a low tolerance for misalignment. But being a leader requires a large paradigm shift and the ability to stop waiting around for someone else to answer the question, so that's the direction I'm trying to move in. I see relocation as a piece of this strategy.

@OutOfTheBlue - I like that quote. That ties into something I was reading yesterday in "Adult Child of Emotionally Immature Parents." In that book, the author outlines that people with emotional troubles often split into two groups: internalizers and externalizers. Internalizers tend to see change as coming from within themselves whereas externalizers see change as coming from outside. I am definitely an internalizer and an introvert, but I don't actually feel like those characteristics are innate. I think I've fallen into this pattern because I've chronically been in environments that don't align with my temperament, but I also don't I am "stuck" here forever. I think finding alignment, which is going to require a combination of personal skill shifts and environmental shifts, is possible, albeit perhaps harder the more niche someone is.

@grundomatic - How do you find your location is for ERE-friendliness? In particular, the ability to meet interesting people without spending a ton of money or outside of a work environment?

dustBowl
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by dustBowl »

AnalyticalEngine wrote:
Tue Feb 28, 2023 11:26 am
I am definitely an internalizer and an introvert, but I don't actually feel like those characteristics are innate. I think I've fallen into this pattern because I've chronically been in environments that don't align with my temperament, but I also don't I am "stuck" here forever.
I relate strongly to this.

One thing I've been realizing recently is despite that despite identifying as a big-I introvert, when I'm around people I [like / click with / connect to] I actually exhibit behaviors that would lead to me getting an extroverted MBTI diagnosis.

Similarly, certain social interactions leave me with more energy, while others are draining. Which seems to blow up the simple [Extrovert = gains energy from socializing] [Introvert = spends energy socializing] paradigm you see thrown around.

So all that leads me to ask, how much of introverted self-perception actually stems from personality / environment misalignment rather than some innate 'truth' about our inner selves?

I think you're tilling some very interesting soil here.

ertyu
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by ertyu »

dustBowl wrote:
Tue Feb 28, 2023 5:22 pm

So all that leads me to ask, how much of introverted self-perception actually stems from personality / environment misalignment rather than some innate 'truth' about our inner selves?
The original theory says personal development is moving towards the middle -- in fact the mbti types were afaik originally intended to point out what "moving towards the middle" might look like for each person

OutOfTheBlue
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by OutOfTheBlue »

AnalyticalEngine wrote:
Tue Feb 28, 2023 11:26 am
@OutOfTheBlue - I like that quote. That ties into something I was reading yesterday in "Adult Child of Emotionally Immature Parents." In that book, the author outlines that people with emotional troubles often split into two groups: internalizers and externalizers. Internalizers tend to see change as coming from within themselves whereas externalizers see change as coming from outside. I am definitely an internalizer and an introvert, but I don't actually feel like those characteristics are innate. I think I've fallen into this pattern because I've chronically been in environments that don't align with my temperament, but I also don't I am "stuck" here forever. I think finding alignment, which is going to require a combination of personal skill shifts and environmental shifts, is possible, albeit perhaps harder the more niche someone is.
dustBowl wrote:
Tue Feb 28, 2023 5:22 pm
I relate strongly to this.
I like where this discussion is going and strongly agree those characteristics don't feel (and should not be seen as) innate.

I reserve some reflections on MBTI for a later post, but I can see several points that can be raised against it, in light of my latest readings.

@Ertyu, this point about moving towards the middle is interesting. Is this similar to a movement towards wholeness/individuation? Do you know where I can read more about this?

ertyu
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by ertyu »

OutOfTheBlue wrote:
Wed Mar 01, 2023 1:57 am
@Ertyu, this point about moving towards the middle is interesting. Is this similar to a movement towards wholeness/individuation? Do you know where I can read more about this?
Nah, I don't even remember where I picked up the original idea itself. The way my brain's retained it is, it's something that came from Jung himself - that the "types" are descriptions of one's current state not innate characteristics and that the goal of personal development should be to develop one's weaker functions. Which makes sense, I'm sure my life will be better with more "engineering" type thought in it and the engineers will likewise benefit from realizing that their inner life exists and isn't just neurological junk

OutOfTheBlue
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by OutOfTheBlue »

Hm, I see. I guess I'll have to read Jung's "Psychological Types" at some point, but if what you are saying is true, it would make a hell of a footnote. Like: "don't read this as an innate, fixed personality thing, but rather as a pointer for where to look towards integration and individuation", instead of seeing it as "this is who I am/they are".

fingeek
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by fingeek »

Interesting. Jordan Peterson's view on this area, is that when thinking about the Big Five Personality Traits (which I appreciate is similar but different to MBTI), our "set point" stays broadly the same through life. But our "range" gets wider (both left and right) as we mature as individuals.

For example, I was heavily an introvert when I was younger. I do believe my default introvert state hasn't broadly changed over the years, but I have learnt better how to socialise and do extrovert things, in a way that doesn't suck my energy quite as much.

And thank you @AnalyticalEngine for your ongoing journal. I don't comment much, but I do follow and I do resonate and get a lot out of your journalling :)

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grundomatic
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by grundomatic »

Well, hard to speak to those needs directly since I am still working and many of my contacts have come from that. It also puts me a bit on the spot...of course I think my friends are interesting! I'm currently consolidating my friendships, and DW is expanding her social circle, and we are both happy with our ability to do so for the most part, but our needs/interests are probably different than yours. I just selfishly wanted to up the nearby ERE count for me...my vision (ERE friends IRL!) and not yours. I wouldn't have said anything if I thought it was way off base, but it's hard to give you the hard sell because I'm just not sure.

Where I live is in many ways like other places where people typically have time for work and maybe one or two hobbies. There are many retirees here, and some "traditional" early retirees. I'll eventually connect to the local FIRE crowd.

I do have someone that I think you should talk to who has moved here from other places I think you may be considering. I'll message you and we'll set something up.

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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by jacob »

dustBowl wrote:
Tue Feb 28, 2023 5:22 pm
One thing I've been realizing recently is despite that despite identifying as a big-I introvert, when I'm around people I [like / click with / connect to] I actually exhibit behaviors that would lead to me getting an extroverted MBTI diagnosis.

Similarly, certain social interactions leave me with more energy, while others are draining. Which seems to blow up the simple [Extrovert = gains energy from socializing] [Introvert = spends energy socializing] paradigm you see thrown around.

So all that leads me to ask, how much of introverted self-perception actually stems from personality / environment misalignment rather than some innate 'truth' about our inner selves?
Yes, it's a bit more complicated than the simple rule would suggest. Introversion is correlated to dopamine sensitivity. Extroverts are less sensitive and so require more stimulus to get the same effect. This is why extraverts tend to get depressed if they are alone. And why they enjoy surprise parties and horror movies which to the introvert is basically the same thing. Introverts are more sensitive and but also more easily overwhelmed by too much stimulus. (Even extraverts sometimes suffer from too much stimulus.)

Furthermore (using MBTI now), whereas extraverts direct their dominant mental function towards the external world whether it's socializing or just experiencing it at large (yay, shiny!), the dominant mental function of introverts is introspective (by construction). Thus whenever you're dealing with an introvert, you're seeing a translation of that internal world provided by the auxiliary function (the co-pilot in the car model). Some translations are easier than others. If you speak a foreign language, you're probably more fluent in some kinds of conversations (e.g. technical subjects) than others (e.g. cultural references). As such conversations that are easy to translate may actually be stimulating or "interesting" to your dominant introverted function, whereas conversations that are hard to translate because they don't relate very much to your dominant function may require too much mental translation effort and thus be draining.

For example, for an INTJ, the dominant function is Ni (abstract perspectives) and the translator is Te (linear logic). It is therefore easy to talk about ideas and concepts. However, only a small fraction of humanity enjoy this particular combination. The majority of humans prefer to talk about how they are feeling about concrete narratives, like "How are you doing?" and "What have you been up to lately?". Ni couldn't care less about this and so it doesn't possess an answer. Even if it had an answer, it would have to be translated into a rarely used script "I'm great you know. Busy at work". As such these conversations are like writing an essay in a foreign language while having to look up every other word while thinking about the grammar.

Bicycle7
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by Bicycle7 »

@Jacob

I was just reflecting on yesterday in conversation how hard it can be for me to answer the question: "How are you doing". I've learned acceptable answers to this but often this question feels unnatural to answer. My dominant function is Ni as an INFJ and I lean heavily N. This is validating!

My translator being Fe differs from yours making it easy to talk about ideas and concepts, though maybe more focused on how those make people/ groups of people feel.

AnalyticalEngine
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

This is a very interesting discussion. Thank you all for your input here as it's given me a lot to think about. I think for me personally, this can be broken up as such:

1. Introvert vs extrovert - Instead of thinking of this as "prefers to socialize" vs "prefers to be alone," I'm increasingly viewing this as the level of stimulation I can tolerate before I get burned out. This means I actually do enjoy socializing in certain situations, such as the writing groups which amount to sitting quietly and discussing our projects. I'm finding it more helpful not to cling to the "introvert" label, as that can come with certain assumptions I don't want to get hung up on, but rather just look at my life as consisting of an energy tank that some activities drain more than others. I am therefore unlikely to enjoy going to a raving party with loud music but I do enjoy socializing at the book club taking place at the local brewery.

2. Trying not to be a curmudgeon - I still struggle with a generalized sense of "I hate everyone," which I keep trying to unpack but has proved difficult. This is a common INTJ problem where you have highly developed Te but poorly developed Fe which often leads to you dealing with people using Te while they are trying to deal with you using Fe. Cue getting endlessly annoyed about bullshit social conventions and falling into the trap of feeling like you either have to withdraw socially or lie. This problem is compounded when you are stuck in Kegan4 land because you can see the social norms of each random Kegan3 group as arbitrary. This is 1000x worse in today's politicized social climate.

3. Dealing with shame - American culture tends to value Happy Extroverts Ready For Adventure, and when that's not you, it can be difficult to deal with. On top of this, because of growing up Mormon, which is essentially a shame-focused hell cult, I spent my entire childhood having it drilled into me how I am essentially Flawed and Broken and Sinful for not enthusiastically wanting to follow Mormon bullshit cult social roles. This makes wanting to reach out socially difficult because I keep feeling like my "authentic self" (let's call this the self I actually enjoy being and have no control over) is too shameful to express to anyone and my options are either to mask or lock myself in a room.

A lot of this has to do with gender and sexuality as being a more masculine woman is The End of The World and The Worst Thing Ever inside of Mormonism, and I am still haunted by feeling like I am too normal to be weird but too weird to be normal because high Te/low Fe makes me clash with both culture and counterculture on this issue.

I also think the INTJ high Fi compared to Fe makes you get locked inside of yourself by focusing on how shameful you feel while being obvious to how anyone else might feel, even when those people actually support you.

4. Avoidant attachment style - My attachment style is avoidant, which makes it harder to maintain friendships because I tend to withdraw/struggle with showing interest, even when I AM interested.

How to get out of this so I can have a fulfilling social life? I think a mix of self-acceptance and being in the right environment are the key. The curmudgeon will probably go away once I feel like I'm in a supportive environment and not constantly doing things that lead to burnout. I also don't know if trying to properly build up Fe instead of relying on Social Script might make it easier to connect with people. I'm also trying to get to the point where I can let go of the INTJ "everyone is doing life wrong" control freak problem and literally just stop caring what anyone says or does because it's not my problem or business. This is another area where Mormonism taught me maladaptive mental patterns, as you are taught to be highly judgemental inside of Mormonism because the judgement and shame keep the cult running.

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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by jacob »

AnalyticalEngine wrote:
Thu Mar 02, 2023 1:54 pm
3. Dealing with shame - American culture tends to value Happy Extroverts Ready For Adventure, and when that's not you, it can be difficult to deal with. On top of this, because of growing up Mormon, which is essentially a shame-focused hell cult, I spent my entire childhood having it drilled into me how I am essentially Flawed and Broken and Sinful for not enthusiastically wanting to follow Mormon bullshit cult social roles. This makes wanting to reach out socially difficult because I keep feeling like my "authentic self" (let's call this the self I actually enjoy being and have no control over) is too shameful to express to anyone and my options are either to mask or lock myself in a room.
OTOH, mainstream American culture is also dominated by modernism which favors indivialism with orange > green+blue. As such there's more freedom for "you to be yourself" compared to traditional doctrine or postmodernist circles. You may have to leave your valley or state but at least you don't have to leave your country.

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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by guitarplayer »

jacob wrote:
Thu Mar 02, 2023 3:54 pm
OTOH, mainstream American culture is also dominated by modernism which favors indivialism with orange > green+blue. As such there's more freedom for "you to be yourself" compared to traditional doctrine or postmodernist circles. You may have to leave your valley or state but at least you don't have to leave your country.
I feel like in terms of individualism and self expression, green > orange > blue. In orange you buy your way out (eg FIRE), in green you have it granted. You might not be the most popular, but will be included by default.

To give an example, I now work in a green organization while DW works in orange. I once was on a work call in a woolen knitted hat and scarf because of my no heating experiment and that way okay. In contrast, DW's work is more orange and so so she has a dress code.

Also, across my lifetime so far, in terms of environment, the journey has been blue -> orange -> green and I see it in numerous ways a liberating one. Different itineraries likely result in a different view though.

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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I think Yellow is also more liberating than Green, but it sometimes vibes a bit too much like reactionary-back-to-Orange or sometimes it even looks kind of like somebody dressed in weird woolen knitted hat and scarf culture toning up some neoliberal economic philosophy. etc.

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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by guitarplayer »

Well, yellow is a whole new level. I think of yellow as rainbow (I am slightly colour blind so unsure if all the previous colours are the necessary ones for a rainbow). So the knitted hat+scarf neoliberal philosopher would be committing Crav Maga on a semi food semi sacrificial lamb in a Church somewhere.

But the thing is, there are no predominantly yellow organisations / larger environments I know of. If anyone knows one let me know and I will make my way there!

ertyu
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by ertyu »

AnalyticalEngine wrote:
Thu Mar 02, 2023 1:54 pm

How to get out of this so I can have a fulfilling social life?
Something I'm noticing is that your thinking and processing around this is very intellectual. You're a high earner and getting EMDR from an actual qualified practitioner won't break the bank, so I highly suggest you do it to process the avoidant attachment, shame related to gender expression, Mormonism, crumudgeonliness, and so on -- imo in that order, but no plan survives first encounter with the enemy. I specifically recommend EMDR rather than any other therapy modality because you're already excellent at grappling with this intellectually and applying theories, concepts, and intellectual models to it, etc.

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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@guitarplayer:

Level Yellow might also look like a Middle-Aged Hippie Mom reading books written by Pick-Up Artists. :lol:
there are no predominantly yellow organisations / larger environments I know of. If anyone knows one let me know and I will make my way there!
The closest thing I have to a hometown (my parents moved there when I was 19, and I either lived or worked there for most of my adult life) is also the most educated town in the U.S. So, I have experienced some micro-environments within that environment that would be towards Yellow. For instance, Borders Books was Yellow before it went corporate, was purchased by K-Mart, and merged with the mall-chain of Walden, and then eventually went bankrupt. Since I was affiliated with this organization as it went through this transition. I still have a little bit of a puke in my mouth taste in relationship to the systematic underpinnings of corporate structure. Two factors that made it Yellow prior to going public were that all employees had to pass a quite difficult book knowledge test in order to be hired and there was profit-sharing.

Another example would be the elementary school where I briefly taught in the most Yellow neighborhood in the city. Children fighting on the playground was deemed acceptable behavior, because adults acknowledged it as phase of development. I also recall one very fit, academic-looking mother arriving to pick up her child from kindergarten wearing a very plain white linen blouse that was basically transparent, and nobody reacting to the fact that her breasts were on clear display on school playground, and that kind of vibes relaxed Level Yellow post-feminist to me.

So, I think some place like that would be a good fit for AE.

AnalyticalEngine
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

@all - All right, I have to own up that I haven't actually read Spiral Dynamics. :lol: I've been putting it off but this conversation has made me realize I do need to read it. It's probably going to be a helpful thing for me to learn as I put myself out there and try to navigate all these new social arenas.

@Jacob - This is a good point with the US. The US has its problems, but it's such a big country that moving state or city can make a huge difference in your day to day lifestyle, and the culture does vary a lot depending on where you are. And if there's any country in the world that's going to support you going off in some socially weird direction, it's the US with its extreme individualism.

@ertyu - I think you're spot on there. I've been avoiding paying for talk therapy because I feel like I can do anything I'd do in therapy myself with a journal, some library books, and external perspectives from friends. But more service-oriented therapy, like EMDR or even some somatic therapies/hypnotherapy might be useful because you're getting a service that's hard to replicate on your own. If I can find something that genuinely works, it would be worth the money. I've just had experiences seeking treatment for depression in the past that was entirely useless, but I think I have greater insight now into what to actually look for when trying to find a therapist.

AnalyticalEngine
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

MONTHLY UPDATE

February Review: February was a weird month for me. I'll spare you all the exact details but what basically happened was I tried to put myself out there with new social environments, and this sparked a weird reaction from my parents, who I have increasingly realized have issues with me being an adult fully separate from them. This is again a Mormon problem because even while my parents are no longer Mormon, Mormon culture is huge on making your children your entire identity, and this has caused major issues between them and me as an adult because your adult children going off to do their own thing collapses your entire identity.

The whole situation was very uncomfortable for me and caused me to basically slip back into my old bad habit of escapism via electronics. I am increasingly noticing that being pushed over my limit causes me to slip back into escapism as a cope, so this is something I am trying to manage.

In the end, I spend several weeks taking a break from a lot of socializing and reevaluating my relationship with my parents and what I want out of my social life. I decided I need to set better boundaries with my parents, which has been difficult because it basically amounts to not being my "full self" around them and instead only saying things in order to manage any potential reaction.

I also spent some time thinking about what I want out of my peer platonic/romantic relationships, and sorted out a few things I won't get into here for the sake of privacy. It basically amounted to realizing I can't really run away from the "too weird" parts of myself and I need to actively find people I can connect with, even if society views that as "bad."

New social strategy - I am going to try to be less passive about my social life. My strategy before was to show up to the right environment and hope for the best. This worked better than the previous strategy of "never talk to anyone ever," but I'm still running into the issue that if what I'm looking for in other people is very rare, I need to take about 1000x more initiative with the relationship.

This is a paradigm shift of trying to actively look for interesting people and then actively be the one to express interest and organize get-togethers. This is also very difficult for me to do because it's not natural to my personality, but I'm hoping it will get easier as I learn.

I'm also going to put some effort into how I come across to people and the image I want to project. The current image I tend to project is "here's a TEDtalk on a random topic," and this may not be how I want to come across in all situations. This will probably involve being more intentional with how I dress and my body language. I actually think my social skills are fine, I'm not socially awkward or anything, but exceptional results require exceptional tactics, and I want to play this game on a level higher than average.

How to reinvent yourself in your 30s
What I've realized is that reinventing myself requires a new environment and internal shifts. I've already made most of the internal shifts I need, so what I need now is a new environment. Moving will be part of this, but what I also realized was that some of my environment is coming from the internet. So in an effort to reinvent myself, I am trying to eliminate or change how I use screens. My plan is to entirely cut out streaming content, no YouTube (except music), and cut out reddit too. For screen time I do intend to keep using, I want to limit myself to only engaging with it in the evenings. That is, have a screen-free day (outside of work) until something like 4pm. I have increasingly noticed how much this internet stuff is filling up my head and life, so I feel like reinventing myself requires cutting this out as much as it does moving.

One issue I have with cutting out screens is that I've basically used it as a coping mechanism because my IRL suburb life is too sterile and lacks stimulation. The internet has been very important for me in connect to my fellow non-normies, which do not exist where I live. So I don't want to cut out the internet entirely because connections like this forum, my ERE friends, etc are all important to me. I have historically taken a pretty puritanical stance toward the internet, but instead of trying to remove it from my life because it's "too weird," what I need to do is make more weirdness happen in my physical reality so I'm not using this as a cope.

Moving - I de-cluttered some stuff but this is a category I am not making as much progress in as I'd like. I really want to get out of the suburbs because I feel like I am stagnating here, but the bazillion tasks associated with moving are bogging me down. It's pretty much impossible to make new routines and move at the same time, so I might end up prioritizing moving over stuff like trying to figure out the optimal diet, exercise, etc.

At least I do have a clearer idea of what I want to do. I think I'm going to rent out my house then stay at various places for 3ish month intervals. I will probably just bring the pets with me since 3 months should be long enough for pets to come. NM and NYC are on the top of the list to try first.

Work - Work is going well. I got a 4% pay raise, which may or may not be enough to keep up with inflation, but I can hardly complain given how cushy and high paying my job is.

Hobbies - I have been continuing to work on the novel and have also started to learn Russian. Learning Russian has been a good opportunity to meet people because I have found native Russian speakers are very excited when they hear you are trying to learn their language. I'm starting to wonder though if I have too many academic hobbies and should drop one of them for a sport or something.

March Goals
1. Continue to focus on health (diet, exercise, sleep, meditation).
2. Set aside time to consistently work on novel.
3. Come up with a more concrete, actionable plan for moving so it actually happens.
4. No streaming content (except music and meditation app), no reddit, only use internet in the PM.
5. Continue to explore new social avenues.

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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by mountainFrugal »

Deep parental issues aside...because I want to acknowledge that... but have little to offer in terms of experience...
AnalyticalEngine wrote:
Sat Mar 04, 2023 12:43 pm
March Goals
3. Come up with a more concrete, actionable plan for moving so it actually happens.
If I am stuck on something like this I often force myself into thinking about it in an abbreviated timeline. What if you had to move out by the end of next weekend as an example? Not that you will actually move next weekend, but what if you had to? What will need to get done and in what order to make that happen?

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