AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

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mathiverse
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by mathiverse »

zbigi wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:13 am
In the Twitter version of the above, you added "Adulting301: Learn to rely on yourself, not the economy". Can you elaborate?
I'm not jacob, but I'm guessing that's referring to the difference between FIRE and ERE. That is, 201 is reaching FI(RE) and then 301 is reaching ERE. Check out the links in this comment on the "best of thread" that refer to a discussion about this distinction: viewtopic.php?p=254156#p254156. Hopefully, jacob jumps in to correct me if that's not what he meant.

Here is the Twitter post for the interested:
https://twitter.com/extremejacob/status/1541493927940964352?cxt=HHwWgIC-5e2jvuQqAAAA wrote: Adulting101: Education. Move out. Get a job. Pay the bills
Adulting201: Save and invest to become FI
Adulting301: Learn to rely on yourself, not the economy.
Adulting401: Find others pursuing similar goals with other means.
Adulting501: Prepare the ground for the 22nd century.

prudentelo
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by prudentelo »

Is there some contradiction having top value of influencing 22nd century while being childless, not being a teacher, talking mainly to other childless people who are not teachers etc.

Who is the 22nd century? Time capsule hunters ?

AnalyticalEngine
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

prudentelo wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:59 am
Is there some contradiction having top value of influencing 22nd century while being childless, not being a teacher, talking mainly to other childless people who are not teachers etc.
No, because one can influence things such as institutions, cultural norms, etc, all of which will have an influence on the future.

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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by jacob »

AnalyticalEngine wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:08 pm
@Jacob - That's all a good point. I think I've conquered adulting101 and adulting201, and now I'm faced with no more meaningful challenges. Self-reliance can become a problem when it keeps you from engaging at a higher level. But the problem isn't things like FI or self-reliance; it's not moving up to the next challenge.

We are all given a window of experience that represents our lifespan, and rising to meet the challenges of that era is what engagement with that experience looks like. I've been thinking about that a lot lately as I watch people from the Bush era retire or become irrelevant, as 9/11 and the Iraq war were the prevailing crisis of my youth, and now that crisis is over and has become history. It's a bit surreal to watch the end of people's careers when those people that played a formative role in my adolescence. But 9/11 was the crisis of their day, and meeting that challenge is what defined their career/lives.

Perhaps what I need to do is engage with this climate crisis stuff at the next level. It's not really a black and white collapse crisis so much as a series of events that are going to shape people's lives for the next 100 years. Whatever that looks like, that's going to be the 9/11 that I have to navigate. Maybe learning to navigate that crisis for others rather than just myself is where the answer lies (adulting301 and adulting401).

This is something I'll have to ponder more, but this is definitely food for thought.
For some of us, "modern society" offers challenges that both feel too limited and too easy. Speedrunning "modern society" can lead to ennui when finishing the game at age 30. It's like being the gifted student in the school system finishing the work in 1/3 of the time and then being told to simply wait quietly until the bell rings because there are no more problems left in the textbook and there and you're not allowed to leave. Except for FIRE the problem is getting stuck in society instead ... only being challenged by yesteryear's problems which in the grand scheme of things seem trivial, mundane, and uninspiring?

So I think the only solution is essentially to plot some escape out of the reigning narrative. There's not enough "material" to fill 50+ years with society's recreational offerings. They're simply not tailored towards full time recreation. The alternative might be to find other games inside society. Many return to the one they know. They go back to their career.

But other games exist outside modern society. However, this requires both being able to play them (adulting301) and finding other people to play with (adulting401). I think this is a meaningful pursuit.

zbigi
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by zbigi »

prudentelo wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:59 am
Is there some contradiction having top value of influencing 22nd century while being childless, not being a teacher, talking mainly to other childless people who are not teachers etc.
You will probably have the biggest impact by either being a breakthrough scientist, a leader (Julius Caesar, Napoleon etc.) or a thinker/philosopher/religious leader (Jesus, Budda, Hegel, Marx etc.).

AnalyticalEngine
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

Unlearning the Loser Mindset

I've realized there's a real risk in being intellectually above average but socially below average. The risk is that you quickly learn school/work is a rather pointless game and it's easy to get a B+ at that game with very bare minimum effort. However, you're not socially gifted enough to realize the social function of the pointless game nor find a way to replace the pointless game with a framework that brings you value. So you get used to putting in the bare minimum effort at work and school. And because you get used to putting in the minimum effort at work/school, you start viewing life in minimum effort terms, and pretty soon, you're putting in minimum effort at relationships, health, and hobbies too.

This is something you can get away with in your teens and 20s, but by the time you hit your 30s and 40s, life catches up with you, and you suddenly find this trait is not nearly as endearing as it used to be. You are, well, a Loser, and you're essentially not participating in your own life.

After you remove all the frameworks, including the socially agreed upon frameworks normies don't see but follow anyway, you realize the only thing that's "real" in life is your experience at a present moment. Because all you are is an experience, you have to engage with that experience, which is something you avoid doing with the Loser Mindset. This is why the Loser Mindset becomes a problem long term. You stop living your own life.

Of course, it goes without saying that the opposite (engagement with social games no matter what) can also become a problem because you lose track of the why. This is also how you get taken advantage of.

This is making me reluctant to quit my career for the following reasons:

1. I feel like I didn't really try enough. I just went into it with the attitude of "I make them more than they pay me. Might as well do the bare minimum," which lead me to never trying to find a job I actually liked. I think there are definitely a lot of exploitative jobs out there, but if you're skilled enough to be a software developer, you're also probably skilled enough to find a way not to be in a hell job situation.

2. Because I am single and I don't have kids, and I am not interested in changing this, I realize I am pretty disconnected from most social structures in society. Work is my only connection to mainstream society, and this is manifesting in the fact that the meetup groups I've had the most success in making friends at are all related to work. It's like I don't have anything in common with most people except work, and I'm very hesitant to throw that away until I've figured out an alternative.

3. ERE sometimes feels like trading one form of work for another. IE, instead of writing software, now I fix the neighbor's drain. This seems to imply you're better off focusing on what you actually like doing, which is probably going to be something productive, rather than stick things in buckets like "work" or "not work." That is, these things are ultimately just lifestyles, and there's nothing magical about one lifestyle over another, only the one that's the best fit for you.

4. Due to aforementioned problem of being single and childless, I have a tendency to turn into a weird hermit when I'm not working in an office. This has gotten so bad that I'm actually considering giving up working from home and finding an office job again. At least when I'm at the office, I'm doing things, even if those things sometimes suck, as opposed to working from home where I have too much free time and start getting caught up in problems and anxieties that are only really problems in my head. I feel like this is a problem that's really hard to appreciate until you've spent months in isolation.

I don't know what I'm going to do. I need to think it over. I do think I've made a lot of progress in changing bad habits and being more engaged with life, but in the process of doing that, I'm starting to realize maybe software wasn't so bad after all and I was always just having a negative attitude. You get out of things what you put into them. Software is a useful skill set that can be applied in very different industries, so maybe what I need to do is find a job that's less about money and ease of life and more about providing me with the opportunity to learn skills and engage with people that I actually want to engage with.

ertyu
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by ertyu »

I think returning to the office would be a "return to last good configuration" type of solution. Works for computers because they generally know what to do from there, someone's programmed them. So they can re-start from the beginning and follow the path correctly this time around. For you in this situation, backtracking to office work wouldn't solve the problem, just avoid it, because the problem is that as opposed to a computer, you don't know the path. So the solution here isn't backtracking, it's stopping for a second and deciding on a future course of action.

ertyu
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by ertyu »

It also occurs to me that it would be a return to last good configuration in a different way, too: schools and universities do this; they throw people together in close quarters so that you spend a lot of time together by design, and people get close. You're looking for an institution to warehouse you with other like-minded people. I experienced something similar when I stopped smoking - when I used to smoke, any place I was at, there would be a ready-made group of people with whom you hang out and socialize for a given amount of time at regular intervals. I smoked between 14 and 24, so when I quit, I suddenly found I didn't know how to make friends outside of those guard rails. Alcoholics go through something similar, whre you need to find a way to people without going to the bar.

I think yo're spot on in your analysis, I recognize the minimum engagement "loser" mindset as a pattern I've been conditioned to as well. you might have just stumbled upon adulting 202 hahaha.

AnalyticalEngine
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

ertyu wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 6:59 pm
I experienced something similar when I stopped smoking - when I used to smoke, any place I was at, there would be a ready-made group of people with whom you hang out and socialize for a given amount of time at regular intervals. I smoked between 14 and 24, so when I quit, I suddenly found I didn't know how to make friends outside of those guard rails. Alcoholics go through something similar, whre you need to find a way to people without going to the bar.
This is 100% what I'm going through. I actually just recent cut a lot of bad habits out of my life (mostly excessive escapism via gaming etc), and that was my major social circle. I've found that I have literally nothing in common with these people once I cut the bad habits, and suddenly, I have no one to hang out with.

I think work is a "socially approved" group to collect friends from, and given the vacuum of covid and newly-dumped bar friends, I do think there's a big "return to normal" psychology in how I feel.

shaz
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by shaz »

Participating in organized sports is another way to find a ready made social group. Rec league sports can be very laid back and a good chance to try something new. Our local rec department offers everything from archery lessons to ice hockey. Just Google "(name of your town) rec league sports" to see what is offered. Maybe give that a try before you turn to desperate measures like going back to the office.

ertyu
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by ertyu »

hahaha this wouldn't have occurred to my fat couch potato ass, but shaz's suggestion sounds the smartest - yes guard rails, but also the focus is a healthy constructive activity

zbigi
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by zbigi »

AnalyticalEngine wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 4:25 pm
Unlearning the Loser Mindset

3. ERE sometimes feels like trading one form of work for another. IE, instead of writing software, now I fix the neighbor's drain. This seems to imply you're better off focusing on what you actually like doing, which is probably going to be something productive, rather than stick things in buckets like "work" or "not work." That is, these things are ultimately just lifestyles, and there's nothing magical about one lifestyle over another, only the one that's the best fit for you.
Yep. This. If you're in software, ERE is definitely more work than the job path, so you have to either dislike software jobs a lot, or like ERE-like activities a lot.

ertyu
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by ertyu »

agreed, that's exactly what we're doing. trading the overspecialized, mono-dependence salaryman job for a basket of competencies, some of which return benefit in the form of social connections, some of which return benefit in the form of resilience, etc.

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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by jacob »

This might be an issue of whether meaning, motivation, and structure is found internally or externally. The good old positive/negative freedom issue.

There's a book by Gretchen "The Happiness Project" Rubin called The Four Tendencies https://www.amazon.com/dp/1524760919/ dividing people into
Upholders: Meets inner expectations, meets outer expectations
Questioners: Meets inner expectations, struggles with outer expectations
Obligers: Meet outer expectations, struggles with inner expectations
Rebels: Struggles with inner expectations, struggles with outer expectations

I think Questioners, especially on the "overqualified" side, are ideal ERE candidates, because they can replace the boring outer expectations of a job with more interesting inner expectations in ERE. (Incidentally this does usually NOT involve transforming into a handyman and spending 40hrs per week wrenching pipes for the neighbors for pocket money) Upholders are also candidates but might find a career more fulfilling. Obligers are the ones who return to work (external expectations) once they retire. Rebels are the ones hoping that ERE or FIRE is a magic pill, but it isn't.

Meeting inner expectations are a required but not sufficient condition. It also has to happen at a sufficient level of competence. For WL6+ there are enough activities to fill the day. At WL5 or below, an attempt will be made to fill one's day and week with previous hobbies and that's difficult since hobbies are tailored for fulltime workers using 1-2 hrs per week. E.g. even if you're a runner who likes to knit, you'll be hard pressed to fill 16 hours with just running and knitting.

AnalyticalEngine
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

@shaz - That was something I was considering, actually. The rec center near me has a very popular pickle ball league and I was thinking of giving that a try. Pickle ball isn't a team sport, and I do think team sports are especially good for building relationships, but my sports background is very weak, so I think it could be a good think to pick up first. I'll go register for the tutorial class once it opens.

I was also planning to go take some paid art classes, of which there are a lot if you find private artists who teach them, and that might also be a good place to meet people.

@zbigi - Software jobs, especially work from home jobs, are ridiculously easy baby jobs. I get all of my work done in four hours a day and can spend the rest of the time doing whatever I want. I initially decided on this route as a transition to no-job ERE, but it's definitely not without its challenges. One thing I've been considering doing is renting out a coworking space and working there instead of my home office just to mix things up. That might be a little expensive, so I think what I'll do before that is pick a random coffee shop in a different town every Friday to work from and work there instead of my house. That might help scratch the itch of "not sit in the same room for 18 hours"

Another thing about software is you get ridiculous things from recruiters because everyone wants to hire you. Like I recently went to a tech conference sponsored by employers that had free, very good catering and an open alcohol bar. Tickets for this conference would have cost $400 but it was free for me because all these employers really wanted to hire and the market is so competitive.

However, one thing I'm trying to keep in mind is these current job conditions won't last forever. For one, it's fairly easy to age out of software because you get to your maximum career progression after only 10 or so years. I'm also noticing that employers are really hating this work from home thing and are chomping at the bit to get people back into the office. Every employer I talked to at the conference was hiring in-office only, so I think if we see a dot com bust type of contraction with the next recession, software office life is going to get a hell of a lot less cushy.

@jacob - That's a good point on where people find their structure. It's making me realize I was being a Rebel when I was stuck in the Loser mentality (don't do anything at work, don't do anything outside of work) and I'm trying to turn myself into an Obliger by going back to work. This is, I think, another area where being unmarried and childless is an issue because spouse + kids are external expectations, and I think a lot of people who quit work then rely on the family system to give them external structure and meaning. Finding a source of meaning that isn't family and also isn't work is going to require some effort.

I'm wondering if the path should be to either work on my ability to uphold internal expectations or hack external expectations to be what I want. Ie, getting a roommate might force me to be cleaner than I am by default if I'm upholding the external expectation of politeness.

NewBlood
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by NewBlood »

AnalyticalEngine wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 4:25 pm
I've realized there's a real risk in being intellectually above average but socially below average. The risk is that you quickly learn school/work is a rather pointless game and it's easy to get a B+ at that game with very bare minimum effort. However, you're not socially gifted enough to realize the social function of the pointless game nor find a way to replace the pointless game with a framework that brings you value. So you get used to putting in the bare minimum effort at work and school. And because you get used to putting in the minimum effort at work/school, you start viewing life in minimum effort terms, and pretty soon, you're putting in minimum effort at relationships, health, and hobbies too.
This describes me to a T... I've become a lot better in the last few years at putting effort into relationships and health/fitness, but it takes a lot of willpower... Being bored out of my mind in school, being told repeatedly to stop asking questions and sit there quietly has definitely squashed any intrinsic motivation I had at a very young age. And when you don't need to put any effort to get top grades, good luck learning any grit or discipline and applying those in other parts of your life... it's a tough reckoning.

AnalyticalEngine
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

NewBlood wrote:
Thu Jul 14, 2022 11:38 am
I've become a lot better in the last few years at putting effort into relationships and health/fitness, but it takes a lot of willpower... Being bored out of my mind in school, being told repeatedly to stop asking questions and sit there quietly has definitely squashed any intrinsic motivation I had at a very young age.
That's a big thing that happened to me too that I've had to work really hard to unlearn. It's still a work in progress, but I think I've at least restored my ability to want things again. I think being able to set your own goals and work toward them is a critically underrated skill. The school/employment system likes to squash it out and replace it simply with following a lot of rules and playing nice. That might get you far in school, but "showing up on time and not causing issues" will lead to a lot of passivity if applied to other areas of your life.

lightfruit55
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by lightfruit55 »

Nothing particularly insightful to add but just wanted to jump in to say how much I'm enjoying/benefiting from the above discussion.

I find myself ruminating on my similar job situation. It's generally easy, pays well, etc, but it more or less feels like passing/doing (dare I say) time. Yet I haven't been creative/motivated (likely due to institutionalisation) enough to find something worthwhile to pursue outside of a job to make quitting an easy choice. Min-maxing at current job is the most logical choice for now, but that's no way to live life.
That's a big thing that happened to me too that I've had to work really hard to unlearn. It's still a work in progress, but I think I've at least restored my ability to want things again.
Relatable. I've been so proficient at killing wants/doing without/delaying gratification/min-maxing, etc, all of which when pushed to the extreme and/or prolonged kills interests, motivation and dulls one's life.

AnalyticalEngine
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

@lightfruit55 - Institutionalism is insidious like that. I've been really trying to wean myself into feeling motivation again before I actually quit. Autopilot is incredibly easy to fall into during accumulation, and dare I say, there are times where it can be adaptive to min/max, feel nothing, and get work done. It's just dangerous to get stuck there, which one is liable to do because of habit.

I think it's also hard because I know whatever I'm doing outside of work isn't really a second career. I think it would be easier to quit work if I really committed to becoming a writer full time, but since I'm realistic about my actual chances of making it in the arts, I still sometimes hesitate. It's insanely easy to just coast along at work and collect what feels like an obscene amount of money for not doing much.

ETA: I think the reason institutionalization happens is because a lot of these systems are designed to turn Kegan2 into Kegan3 and call it a day. I think this is strictly because Kegan2s can create a lot of problems for society, and Kegan3 is "good enough," so as long as you're not in prison and have a job, that's already the only goal for the majority of the population. Kegan4 is the professional class, but moving past that requires charting a lot of territory that no one really bothers to navigate because it doesn't have much monetary/lower crime benefit.

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Ego
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Re: AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

Post by Ego »

AnalyticalEngine wrote:
Thu Jul 14, 2022 8:14 pm
I think it would be easier to quit work if I really committed to becoming a writer full time, but since I'm realistic about my actual chances of making it in the arts...
Do you need to "make it" in a post-work avocation?

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