AE's Journal Round 5 - Finding Freedom To

[AnalyticalEngine]

@grundomatic - All very good points. I do think my personality is such that I'm hardly in any danger of going bankrupt. I do also think that sometimes cheap solutions come out of initial expensive solutions. For example, one might figure out how to save money on travel after iterating through several trips, and iterating through is going to be more useful than trying to come up with a solution in isolation. I think sometimes the biggest thing is to just start moving in the direction you want to go with the knowledge that you will be able to come up with solutions to microproblems as you go. After all, no plan survives an encounter with the enemy and all that.

@mF - Thank you! Watching your journal has been really inspiring, and I hope to adopt some of your positive, proactive attitude as I plan this. I have to thank this forum for all the support and advice here. It's all been very helpful in getting unstuck.

@J+G - That's a good way to summarize the WL5 to WL6 transition, and it captures the mentality I've been shifting between with this transition well. This part in particular:

I think the goal is to recognize money for the tool that it is. Money gets you the fast, easy, socially acceptable, comfortable solution. People shit on those things, but sometimes you need that solution. But that solution is rarely the most interesting or fun. Do you want the most interesting or fun solution to the problem or do you just need to solve it in any of the above ways? Situation will dictate.

Is something I totally agree with. Given that I have the money, this solution is easy to find appealing. I think it might be a different story if I hadn't already hit a decent FIRE number. But this is definitely finding the balance of solutions, managing my energy, and being clever with spending/web of goals/all that stuff/etc.

Your point about finding the absolute bottom level of spending is interesting. I think the main thing holding me back from that is the burnout. That is, getting down to that bare bones level requires enduring all the "luxury and mindless distraction withdrawal," which is just vaguely painful when also dealing with burnout. I think I might have to brainstorm how to approach that because this is a definite barrier right now. I keep falling back into bad habits out of not having the emotional energy to endure enough suck to get out of them.

[Western Red Cedar]

Web of Goals Shift

I'm really enjoying your journal and appreciate you documenting things here. I've been having similar thoughts about this, particularly in regards to spending and social activities. @J&G said it more eloquently than I can, but money is ultimately just a tool - a very powerful one. Being trapped by frugality isn't too much better than being trapped by debt and consumption.

I recently found myself feeling guilty about buying concert tickets for a few shows. I realized this is pretty silly as it won't have any noticeable impact on my NW, and I don't think the experience can be easily replicated. Playing music with friends is great, but it isn't the same as seeing a band you love with hundreds or thousands of people. This is just one example where I think a frugal disposition and some of the norms on the forum were distorting my thinking.

I've actually been trying to force myself to spend when I wouldn't as a personal challenge. Things like an MLB game with my brother, meals out with friends, etc... Hopefully nobody revokes my ERE membership

[AnalyticalEngine]

@WRC - Thank you! I'm glad you've found it insightful. My thinking has increasingly shifted toward the reality that it's impossible to separate myself from the world around me, and my constant attempts to do this are what are leading to me feeling stuck/alienated, and so I am better off trying to re-embed myself into a new context, which may very well cost some money to make happen. In particular, I've noticed that I've had a tendency to try and control social situations, then get frustrated/depressed when reality doesn't meet my expectations. That is, instead of spending $50 to enjoy an occasional concert as a way to stay embedded within a given social milieu and have some friends, I have a tendency to decide this is all a manifestation of evil corporate consumer distractions or whatever, and then fail to actually live my life[1].

I'll write another post on this later once I work out the details, but my approach now is to just radically accept reality, other people, and myself as something that I have no control over, is never going to change, and is a context that I just exist inside and therefore need participate in fully. Once I radically accepted the limitations of my life, I suddenly realized there is literally nothing between me and my goals. That is, once I accepted that I'm not going to wake up tomorrow as Bill Gates, 10 years younger, suddenly living in Colonial America, having fixed poverty or stopped all war, etc, I came to the conclusion that the only thing between me and my goals is my attitude and habits. It's probably a better use of my time to just move to a slightly nice apartment in Denver and try to meet people than it is to worry about these fantasies I have no control over. Yes, this will cost money, but I was using frugality as a defense against having to actually live my life.

I think once I work out this system/my new goals/etc, it won't actually even cost that much because I'm currently wasting money on other things/addictions that will stop being a problem once I create a life I find more engaging.

[1] Note that I don't actually think these things are mutually exclusive. Our society is full of consumer distractions, and these distractions are often how people relate to each other, so rejecting them entirely can actually make you feel alienated. It's a delicate balance of understanding that this just is how our society is and learning to navigate it versus letting it consume you and then falling victim to consumer distractions yourself.

[Jin+Guice]

With spending on things like what y'all are talking about, I think it comes down to mindset. It's a little hard for me to describe how I think, but I'll try.

I go to concerts whenever the fuck I feel like it. I buy shit whenever I feel like it. This might look like some WL 2 consumer or something, but I have years and years of frugality under my belt, so "whenever I feel like it" turns out to not be very often.

I've noticed in developmental tiered models (like the WL model), that higher level behavior often looks like lower level behavior, but internally it's much different.

The goal for me is freedom. There is not person who it is harder to be free from than yourself. Fretting over every $50 purchase is not freedom. Are you buying concert tickets bc of social or societal pressure or bc you want to? On some level it will always be all three and you'll go insane trying to figure it out. I truly don't think about it anymore, bc I have internalized all of the frugality stuff.

Like I just sort of know if the concert is worth it to me for the money or not bc I've already analyzed and thought about purchases and frugality for so long. I am free to do whatever I want bc I always have extra money bc of ERE, which paradoxically means not going to a bunch of concerts... but also not feeling like I'm missing out bc I KNOW on a gut level that they are not worth it to me? But I also don't think about this at all anymore, the knowledge is just in my brain instantaneously when I find out about a concert I want to go to or an experience I want to have or a thing that I want.

I feel like this is getting over the moat of WL5->WL6 though? When I don't spend money, I don't feel a sense of loss bc if I did I would just spend the money. But my life isn't set up so I buy uber eats every time I'm hungry, it's set up so I forget that uber eats even exists.

I also have some unique social gift where I used to be totally socially inept and naive, yet still somehow managed to have a lot of friends and not really care what people think in most cases. To me it's easy to not spend money to have friends, but I seem to be an outlier in this regard? I also just know like 10 free things to do that are fun. I sometimes spend money for social reasons, but it's bc I've exhausted all other options.

The comfort stuff is a whole other barrel of monkeys. It is possible to comfort yourself/ dissociate without money. Sex, exercise, ripping lines of molly off of your hottest friend's ass, eating donuts directly out of a grocery store dumpster. The best things in life truly are free, if you know where to find them. I often wonder whether modernity necessitates coping mechanisms or whether they are just intrinsic to existence. I'm sure I'll ponder this for eternity, but what I do know is coping mechanisms are another thing that has been commodified and sold back to us.

P.S. I bought concert tickets to see a band that I have never heard of during the course of writing this post. I did it w/o a second thought bc the concert is $20 and a 5 minute walk from my house in a cool venue I haven't been to in awhile and my friend asked me if I wanted to go and I want to see him. I honestly didn't think about any of that at all until I started editing this post again.

[AnalyticalEngine]

The goal for me is freedom. There is not person who it is harder to be free from than yourself. Fretting over every $50 purchase is not freedom. Are you buying concert tickets bc of social or societal pressure or bc you want to? On some level it will always be all three and you'll go insane trying to figure it out. I truly don't think about it anymore, bc I have internalized all of the frugality stuff.

Like I just sort of know if the concert is worth it to me for the money or not bc I've already analyzed and thought about purchases and frugality for so long. I am free to do whatever I want bc I always have extra money bc of ERE, which paradoxically means not going to a bunch of concerts... but also not feeling like I'm missing out bc I KNOW on a gut level that they are not worth it to me? But I also don't think about this at all anymore, the knowledge is just in my brain instantaneously when I find out about a concert I want to go to or an experience I want to have or a thing that I want.

I feel like this is getting over the moat of WL5->WL6 though? When I don't spend money, I don't feel a sense of loss bc if I did I would just spend the money.

This is a good way to frame WL5->WL6. The key is basically getting to know yourself and your environment enough that these things all come naturally to you and no longer feel like work or that you're depriving yourself from things you want. You've also figured out how to get those things you want without it costing things you don't want.

I also have some unique social gift where I used to be totally socially inept and naive, yet still somehow managed to have a lot of friends and not really care what people think in most cases. To me it's easy to not spend money to have friends, but I seem to be an outlier in this regard? I also just know like 10 free things to do that are fun. I sometimes spend money for social reasons, but it's bc I've exhausted all other options.

I think this is a mix of location, personal temperament, and past experiences. For example, people who are low income are naturally going to have a social life without spending as much money because it's the nature of their social milieu. On the flip side, being in a high income environment but trying not to spend money is swimming upstream, and you might find yourself alone as a result.

What I've slowly realized is that Mormonism just flat out fucked up my ability to have normal relationships, and unlearning that has been a slow process. I'm also so burned out that I just flat out don't have fun hanging out with people the majority of the time, and so it's easier to retreat into isolation. But the thing is, I do need to be around people, and the constant isolation can have its own problems.

The problem with Mormonism in particular is that it teaches you to be very judgemental AND you are also hanging out with other people who are judgemental AND Mormonism is anti-joy/hates fun, so you get taught that everything just has to suck all of the time, that you should judge everyone, and that everyone will hate you/is your enemy. You can easily see how this is the path to not having many friends.

I think that if you're the type of person that just has fun hanging out with other people, you will have a lot of friends, even if your social skills are inept. On the flip side, my social skills are fine, but I'm so deep into burn out and had my perception of relationships fucked up all throughout my formative childhood and young adult years that unlearning these things just takes time. My plan therefore is to just use money to buy my way into a better environment that makes forming relationships easier.

[Jin+Guice]

What environment will you purchase?

[AnalyticalEngine]

In practice, my plan is to move somewhere where:

1. There is more of a social scene.
2. More people who are closer to my age or lifestyle circumstances (single, no kids).
3. I am close to these things so I can hangout with people without having to drive 30+ min.

Which basically just amounts to renting a one bedroom apartment or studio downtown. This is an expensive housing situation but I want to try it for at least a year and then can iterate on the solution or change it.

I'm basically thinking about this like college. The reason it's easy to make friends in college is there's a bunch of people very similar to you all in one place with a bunch of free time. As people get older, they tend to get sucked into work and childrearing, so it's comparatively harder to make friends. The best thing to do therefore is just move to a location where this isn't a problem (such as downtown instead of Rich Conservative Suburb).

[Western Red Cedar]

In practice, my plan is to move somewhere where:

1. There is more of a social scene.
2. More people who are closer to my age or lifestyle circumstances (single, no kids).
3. I am close to these things so I can hangout with people without having to drive 30+ min.

Which basically just amounts to renting a one bedroom apartment or studio downtown. This is an expensive housing situation but I want to try it for at least a year and then can iterate on the solution or change it.

I'm basically thinking about this like college. The reason it's easy to make friends in college is there's a bunch of people very similar to you all in one place with a bunch of free time. As people get older, they tend to get sucked into work and childrearing, so it's comparatively harder to make friends. The best thing to do therefore is just move to a location where this isn't a problem (such as downtown instead of Rich Conservative Suburb).

I think this makes a lot of sense, but I'd suggest that if you are somewhat patient, you could probably use your ERE/optimizer skills to find something that meets your need that isn't too expensive. If you aren't necessarily tied to the idea of living in the Denver metro area, there are probably loads of slightly smaller cities that are more affordable that meet all of your criteria. Even if you want to live in Denver, you could probably find something slightly unconventional (or conventional) that puts you in a better social environment that is under market rent. Time is your ally here.

DW and I basically made a similar move 8+ years ago and our life is much better as a result.

[AnalyticalEngine]

@WRC - Thanks for your perspective here. It's good to hear that you making a similar move payed off, as such a major lifestyle change does make me slightly nervous.

In Denver, if you want to live in the "fun" part of town in a "nice" studio apartment, you're looking ~$2,000/mo for a 400-500sqft apartment. Now this obviously does get more affordable the less "fun" or "nice" you pick, but I'd like to make a serious lifestyle change here and not just move from Suburb 1 to Suburb 2. You are right though, being patient and knowing exactly what you want to optimize will get you a more affordable price.

Still though, $2000/mo for a studio is extremely not affordable, and I could live nearly anywhere in the country for that price. Which is why I have thought I should just say fuck it and move to NYC for a year. Because if I was not concerned about money at all, I could hypothetically quit work, move to NYC, and enroll in art school or similar, and my social life would then be DRAMATICALLY different. Now I don't really want to go to art school, but thinking this way is a good tool for getting mentally unstuck.

My real hang up right now is trying to decide what to do with my current condo. I bought it for $180k and could sell it for $380k. It looks like the current ceiling for having to pay taxes on this is $250k in appreciation, so I am safe to sell now. I owe ~$45k on it, which means if I sell it, I would have $335k to invest in something else. Alternatively, if I rent the condo, my expenses on it are ~$1k/mo but I could rent it for $2.2k/mo, netting me $1.2k/mo in cash flow. Withdrawing from $335k using the 4% rule is ~$1.1k/mo, so the numbers here are pretty similar. The thing about renting is that it saves my condo for me if I ever want to live in it again at the cost of the fact that being a landlord has the potential to be an annoying job.

[Slevin]

I want to emphasize that just selling the house is a forcing function to actually move towards living the life that you want, and I can't easily describe in words how empowering that is towards actually doing the things you want to do.

It could be a mistake in the scope that in N years you feel like settling down, and then decide that you want to live in your old neighborhood again, but it seems like from your posts here that your current place will never be what you want, and you would want something different in the future instead.

[AnalyticalEngine]

@Slevin - That's a very good point. This condo I have is one of a hundred identical units inside the neighborhood, so if I ever really, really want to live here again, I could buy another condo in the same complex with a similar or identical floor plan. It wouldn't be my exact same condo, but it would be similar enough.

Selling it also has the advantage of freeing me from getting bogged down in all the logistical details of landlording, which might seriously set me back months toward other goals.

[Jin+Guice]

Also, don't you live somewhere that you kind of grew up? If you don't like where you grew up, I think cutting all ties with the place is advisable. You don't want to get sucked back in.

I've also had good luck finding affordable places to live in cities. It really helps to be in the city talking to the people you want to know to find the weird opportunities. I usually don't sign a year lease for some normal type of apartment. 12 years ago in NYC there was weird shit on the internet. In New Orleans you have to know people or walk around the neighborhoods you want to live in and call people with physical signs.

Possible 2023 hack: Move to a city that just constricted Air BnB laws.

[grundomatic]

I am free to do whatever I want bc I always have extra money bc of ERE, which paradoxically means not going to a bunch of concerts...

Is there a name for this paradox? If not, I think we should consider giving it one. I've thought about this exact thing many times.

Alternatively, if I rent the condo, my expenses on it are ~$1k/mo but I could rent it for $2.2k/mo, netting me $1.2k/mo in cash flow. Withdrawing from $335k using the 4% rule is ~$1.1k/mo, so the numbers here are pretty similar. The thing about renting is that it saves my condo for me if I ever want to live in it again at the cost of the fact that being a landlord has the potential to be an annoying job.

It's frustrating when the numbers don't give an easy answer, especially when numbers have been guiding decisions for a while. Five years ago, keeping our rental was quantitatively a no-brainer. Now that it isn't anymore, qualitative factors are going to come into play. I can tell you all about the emotional anguish the rental house has caused if you want.

Also, don't you live somewhere that you kind of grew up? If you don't like where you grew up, I think cutting all ties with the place is advisable. You don't want to get sucked back in.
...
Possible 2023 hack: Move to a city that just constricted Air BnB laws.

I'm with Jin+Guice on making a clean break. I understand the allure of having a fallback plan, and I may have even supported that route in the recent past, but maybe make the fallback plan moving to your sisters basement if you fail to find anyplace more interesting to live. No more going back to things we left--we've talked about it in the context of jobs, but I think the same goes for places to live.

[OutOfTheBlue]

Yes, selling could be a strong move, on a symbolic level.

[Frita]

And another thing to consider is that “You can’t go back home.” Things and people change after one leaves. Plus leaving and aging changes us too (and more so than people who have stayed put IMO).

[Ego]

It's frustrating when the numbers don't give an easy answer, especially when numbers have been guiding decisions for a while.

Broadly speaking, we try to allow numbers to inform big decisions like this but not be determined by them. Not that you were saying they should be. I believe (as you hinted) when regularly making most decisions by the numbers it is possible to fall into the habit of automatically applying the technique to the big things as well. This is something that happens to me and I have to check myself every so often. Sometimes seemingly foolish financial decisions can be very good life decisions.

[jacob]

This moving decision strikes me as being similar to those who seek FIRE because they want "freedom-from" work. That's almost always a bad idea. If nothing else, many end up going back to the comfortable misery of work because that's all they know.

Similarly, don't move because you seek "freedom-from" your surroundings. It's the same deal. Move because you seek "freedom-to" something you can't find where you're currently at.

[AnalyticalEngine]

@J+G - This is a good point about the advantages of being "on the ground" in the location you want to move to. I think a lot of the apartments advertised on the internet (or really, opportunities generally) are of the luxury-apartment variety because those are the locations that can afford the fancy website/advertising by nature of what they are. Certainly, with local connections, one can find the non-advertised option, which is usually cheaper and less orthodox. Of course, building those connections in the first place is the hard part, but finding some temporary solution might make this easier, such a rental for only a month or two.

One thing I can do, since I'm already in Colorado, is try to find some unorthodox solution in Denver. Being here already would make Denver specifically a lot easier.

@grundomatic - Your rental house horror stories in your journal sound exactly like the situation I want to avoid. I think the fact the numbers are ambiguous is a sign that the housing market here is pretty equalized with the stock market, which is something you might expect in a more saturated market that's reached efficiency/equilibrium. Being a landlord is a job I do not want and know I would be terrible at, both of which are significant things to keep in mind.

@OutOfTheBlue - Also a good point. Never discount the importance of the symbolism in the stories we tell ourselves. Selling vs renting the house could very well lead to radically different framing paradigms for what I'm trying to do. The idea that I can "come back" might be a fantasy that holds me back.

@Frita - Very true there. Moving to a new place is likely to make me a different person than I am now by virtue of having that experience. The older I get, the more I realize that a true "reset button" is a myth, and it's best to accept that we are constantly changing and evolving. You can never go home again indeed.

@Ego - That's exactly the mindset shift I'm trying to embrace with this choice. Obviously, a great many people are foolish with their money, but there is a point where hoarding cash and being safe becomes its own prison. I've been stuck in the hoarding money mindset since my early 20s, and I do believe it's caused me to be shortsighted. Again, not that one should #YOLO, but there is certainly more to life than money. The cliche is to use money as a tool, which is absolutely true, but like most cliches, it's a hell of a lot harder to follow than say.

@jacob - I absolutely see where you are coming from with this, and I agree that this is a motivation I should avoid. Some of the reason I'm so anxious to get out of here is that I recognize I chose to live here in the past simply because it was the easy thing to do. I got in the habit for years of avoiding living my own life and used frugality as an excuse, so this is the mindset I'm trying to undo.

Now, it would be a false dilemma to say I either need to move or stay. The better thing to do is be realistic and prudent with what I'm trying to do and try not to let anxiety or fear drive the decision in either direction. So while dropping everything and moving to Seattle tomorrow would be a bad idea, keeping myself grounded in the outcomes I'm trying to achieve and keeping up with my web of goals in other areas would lead to a better choice.

I've been working on a web of goals for my full lifestyle that I'll post here once I'm done. Keeping in mind "freedom-to" is important there. I think a lot of this journal is steeped in "freedom-from" thinking, which I know recognize is basically just depression, and I've been using a few framing tricks to get myself out of being stuck there.

[shaz]

If you sell your condo and later miss it, it is highly likely you can buy another similar condo nearby. It's not like it's the family farm that your grandparents built by hand.

[ertyu]

contrapoint: depending on area and on one's macro thesis, one might want to keep some part of one's wealth in real estate. "just buying it back" might not turn out to be that simple.