grundomatic's journal

Where are you and where are you going?
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seanconn256
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Re: grundomatic's journal

Post by seanconn256 »

I relate to "reading ahead in the curriculum" quite a lot. Personally, I have found that I use it as a way to justify my feelings, more than being the cause of them. I'll feel bad about my progress/performance in some area, and think that it must be because I am not at current level + 1. When I then get to that next level, the feeling remains, so I re-orient my expectations to level + 2.

I have had minor success undoing this by trying to be more process oriented than results oriented. Being happy with marginal improvement, and not trying to set some absolute reference point.

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Re: grundomatic's journal

Post by grundomatic »

March SR 44%, IR2 1.96
Again, these numbers are low due to me increasing pre-tax withholding by a lot. Also no payment from the rental (still), and that’s 1/3 of the NW, so that hurts.

I’ve told work that I’m not coming back for next school year. This time I mean it. It all comes down to not enjoying what I have to do on a daily basis. The only question that remains is what to do instead. Oh, and believe me, I am being asked this on the daily. For right now, I just plan to take some time to recover from running myself into the ground. After that it’s just figuring out whether I want to jump back on the salaryman track to FI. Ideally I like to get paid to learn something that interests me, I’m just going to need some time to figure out what that is, and whether someone will pay me to do it. I suppose if I manage to build myself something viable in the meantime, that works, too.

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Re: grundomatic's journal

Post by ertyu »

I'm sorry if you explained that previously, which one was IR2 again?

Congrats on quitting, looking forward to how your life shapes up from this point on!

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Re: grundomatic's journal

Post by Ego »

grundomatic wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2023 5:04 pm
Also no payment from the rental (still), and that’s 1/3 of the NW, so that hurts.
Yikes! Since last October?

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Re: grundomatic's journal

Post by mathiverse »

ertyu wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2023 6:12 pm
I'm sorry if you explained that previously, which one was IR2 again?
grundomatic's income robustness score for himself and his wife together. Here is the explanation on how to calculate it: viewtopic.php?p=240188#p240188

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Re: grundomatic's journal

Post by ertyu »

mathiverse wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2023 6:16 pm
grundomatic's income robustness score for himself and his wife together. Here is the explanation on how to calculate it: viewtopic.php?p=240188#p240188
thanks!

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Re: grundomatic's journal

Post by grundomatic »

@ertyu
Thank you! I'm looking forward to seeing what shakes out as well.

@ego
You got it. April makes 7 months with no payment. The state of Tennessee is not doing us any favors. Our management company has not been helpful. Let this be a lesson to those reading in diversification of investments, outsourcing control, and margin of safety. This would be much more stressful if we were highly leveraged in order to eke out a few percentage points. I would not have the luxury of stepping away from FTE to take care of myself.

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Re: grundomatic's journal

Post by Ego »

So sorry to hear. It can be incredibly frustrating. Has the management company suggested offering them cash for keys? If not, you might consider instructing them to do so. Right now there are so many evictions in the pipeline. Getting a court date takes forever here. There is even a long wait to get a date from the sheriff to perform the lockout AFTER going through the entire eviction process. There is a cash for keys procedure your management company would need to follow to make the exchange. They sign a document relinquishing rights to the property in exchange for the payment and you change the locks right then and there. Some tenants will take it to avoid a full eviction which will make it nearly impossible for them to rent again for a long time. Making the offer requires a deft hand.

Good luck!

BTW, homeless here are looking at rental listings online then checking the doors to see if a worker has left a place unlocked during the workday, something workers frequently do for vacancies. If they find one, they move in, change the locks and refuse to leave until evicted.

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Re: grundomatic's journal

Post by grundomatic »

While the management company isn't communicative at all, they are at least trying to handle things. We were told yesterday that the eviction hearing is today.

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Re: grundomatic's journal

Post by Ego »

Moving in the right direction. Good news. Typically the tenants do not show up for the hearing, in which case you would get a default judgement. Hopefully that happens.

It is taking 8-9 months to get to that point here, so things are moving relatively quickly... though I am sure it does not feel that way for you.

If there is a continuance, be sure to message the lawyers directly or ask for copies of the documents to determine why. There are lots of very complex details with evictions that vary by municipality and mistakes happen all the time. If the management company made the mistake, it could be the grounds for ending their contract after this is resolved.

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Re: grundomatic's journal

Post by seanconn256 »

I'm very interested to see what you end up doing during your break from work. Considering how "strange" of a decision it is to most people, I can see that it's not an easy one.

I'm sure you will find something that you enjoy doing after you take time to recover. I have found that my current mindset mostly dictates my predictions and plans for the future. When I feel run down and sad, I expect that out of the future, even if the facts say things are supposed to improve.

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Re: grundomatic's journal

Post by grundomatic »

Value creation and not value destruction

I was reading The Lean Startup and got to a part where the author is discussing the importance of quickly figuring out whether a new product or service is value-creating or value-destroying. In the next sentence he mentions how in business this is measured in profit, but in social ventures or the public sector it would not be measured in profits alone. I then made the connection to lifestyle design.

Organization = lifestyle
Product or service = lifestyle module, in terms of the ERE book

I get to pick the values I measure, which I’ve been thinking about for a while now. Then I just have to determine if each of my modules, or activities, is value-creating or value-destroying, by my own definition of "value". This is literally straight out of the book (Sections 4.1.4 and 5.1.2), but damn is it helpful when it “clicks”.

Life out of balance

My trouble with my job is that as I grew and changed, the outputs of that module changed. When growth/learning within the module stagnated, fun output went negative, which in turn increased the life energy input required for the module, leaving less energy in the whole system for things like health maintenance and other forms of fun. There were still positive effects of people and net resource accumulation, but overall value-creation went down. Heterotelic effects. Life and lifestyle modules are not static. Thus the importance of a resilient design–because my lifestyle isn’t 100% reliant on this single module, I can walk away instead of letting it take down the whole system.

Making connections and hopefully takeaway for others

This journal exists to help theoretical others that may lurk here who have more in common with me than with others on the forum, so I’ll share what has helped me.

Having people to talk to about ERE has helped. Here is Jacob’s rundown on learning in extraverts and introverts. I meet regularly with a friend IRL to "walk and talk” about ERE. I meet online with an MMG to discuss ERE. We are currently reading ERE and discussing a chapter or two at a time. The members of that group seem to be making big changes in their lives. Ditto in the other MMG. This “proximity progress” is what has me trying to get people closer together to see what happens next.

Another thing that helped is learning about systems in an already familiar domain. Early in my ERE journey I remember taking the suggestion to learn about permaculture to help understand ERE better. While interesting, I may have made more progress if I’d stuck to business and entrepreneurship books using systems thinking, since I am formally trained and have experience in that area. It’s worth noting that somewhere it was suggested that a person get a formal education in at least one area, as it makes it easier to transfer the knowledge/way of thinking to another domain. Was it here? I don't remember, but still, don't drop out of school yet, kids. Unless you have your trade apprenticeship lined up or can live off the land already.

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Re: grundomatic's journal

Post by grundomatic »

Embracing who and where I am

So now that I’m quitting work (again) I have to answer the question, both for myself and for others, of what I’m going to do with myself. The best thing I can come up with is to just embrace where I am. Fortunately others have created frameworks for me to figure out “where I am”. I’m specifically thinking about Wheaton levels and Spiral Dynamics.

I’m 100% over the careerism, competition, and even the “play hard” of orange. If the sociologists have mapped out how people usually progress, both as individuals and as society–why not use that map to head to the next waypoint? So I’m just going to embrace green. Run it into the ground, just like I did orange. When I thought about what I need, since the material basics are covered, the answer I came up with was “people and a cause”. Thinking about it now, I’ll add “some variety” as well as “a chance to learn and grow”. So this isn’t some aspirational level I think I should be at. It suits me, so I’m going to embrace it.

If what I want is the next waypoint on the map, and I have been helped by both that blazed the trail and those in my peer group that make time to talk to me about the current struggles, given what I wrote above then it becomes clear that a good goal for me would be to help as many other starfish as I can.

I then thought about what this would require me to do. In order to effectively help people, I have to understand where they are. I think we’ve all accepted by now that you can’t just hand someone with money problems a copy of ERE and walk away. Similarly, I can’t just hand someone concerned about the future of water in the west a copy of Rainwater Harvesting for Drylands and Beyond and call it good. I also know that not everyone cares about personal finance or permaculture, so to broaden my reach I need to understand the curriculum of other realms. Not just be singularly focused on one thing or perspective. Anyone want to chime in on what this sounds like to them?

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Re: grundomatic's journal

Post by jacob »

grundomatic wrote:
Sun Apr 16, 2023 10:50 am
I also know that not everyone cares about personal finance or permaculture, so to broaden my reach I need to understand the curriculum of other realms. Not just be singularly focused on one thing or perspective. Anyone want to chime in on what this sounds like to them?
Recurring lessons are:
1) Yes, other realms have other curricula.
2) Most realms only have one.

The second one is the hardest to learn or accept. I'm often annoyed that while there may very well be an easy and effective solution, it's just unacceptable to some realms because it's incompatible/gets attacked by the immune system of their values.

It's not impossible. ERE/FIRE has increasingly won over Orange and after 15 years is now over the hump in terms of "first they ignore you ... " getting close to acceptance. Green isn't as far. The main obstacle here is that any change must be undertaken as a community + new ideas only get one voice in a flat-hierarchy community. Winning over an entire community seems like it involves a lot of backroom politics in terms of who likes who. This is different from orange who will accept new ideas based on whether they are quantifiably better and bring personal benefits. Most of green is qualitative and sociocentric. "Making us feel better". Dealing with everybody's feelings BEFORE solving whatever problem. Indeed, the "feels" are the problem (and to Green also the solution).

Add: Within a given curriculum there's a goal-measure. For orange it's personal achievement. As such FIRE/ERE needs to look better with orange glasses than work. This leads to the traditional fatFIRE or at least being a millionaire. For green, the goal-measure seems to be inclusiveness (and correcting past exclusiveness). Thus ERE must appear even more inclusive/less exclusive in the green-lens. A proposal that works for 90% of people won't fly in green-space if it's impossible to achieve for 10% of people.

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Re: grundomatic's journal

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

grundomatic wrote:For instance–equitable resource use seems like a great value to me. However, I am not sufficiently skilled to bring down my use to the ultra-low (fair) level. Or maybe I’m just not that motivated, meaning I value something else, like comfort or social norms, more. And that feels like a failure.
I truly grok this feeling, but I would bet that since you are ENFP, you don't apply this strict level of value judgment to other humans. Also, if you are consciously or subconsciously due to personality type/core values attempting a solution that is simultaneously going up on the time/future-you axis and sideways on the integrating other humans axis, your progress will be slower towards expense reduction. It's just more difficult to apply a metric to the extent to which you are integrating productively/functionally directly helping other humans/communities/eco-systems/social-systems.
jacob wrote:The main obstacle here is that any change must be undertaken as a community + new ideas only get one voice in a flat-hierarchy community.
A variety of solutions to this problem and successful real-life examples are presented in "Reinventing Organizations: A Guide to Creating Organizations Inspired by the Next Stage of Human Consciousness." The effective "Neither, nor" of compromise and consensus are replaced by "Yes, and.." of free range of proposals being efficiently accepted and proto-typed/trialed with yardstick lowered to "No principled objection."
For green, the goal-measure seems to be inclusiveness (and correcting past exclusiveness). Thus ERE must appear even more inclusive/less exclusive in the green-lens. A proposal that works for 90% of people won't fly in green-space if it's impossible to achieve for 10% of people.
Very true, but given that in accordance with the model, Green is "higher" than Orange, alteration of perspective may reveal this as feature rather than bug. I mean, there is a level on which this is like when an experienced machinist informs an experienced mechanical engineer that the concept created by the design team simply can't be created to the specifications and tolerance required and/or vice-versa. Flattening hierarchy brings the machinist to the table with the designer.

One way of altering perspective is to re-frame as 90% and 10% of circumstances, as opposed to 90% and 10% of people. For instance, there was a lot of griping about the expense/work/headache involved in installing handicap ramps for "just" the small percentage of the population that always needs them when it became legal requirement, but they also turned out to be super handy for people making deliveries, pushing baby strollers, suffering temporary injury after mountain climbing adventure, and AI floor-scrubbing robots, in addition to Stephen Hawking and his crew.

When considering Level Green, it might also prove helpful to look back to higher functional practices at Level Blue. For instance, an example given in an extremely old-school male-led-marriage manual which I remember was that the "good husband" should stick to his guns on only buying the absolute least expensive linoleum for the kitchen if money really is very tight, but, otherwise, should definitely take his wife's aesthetic preferences, such as "the yellow would make me feel happier than the puke green" into account when making purchase. I think this might be roughly analogous to the challenge of presenting ERE to a Green human or group that is, for example, more core involved with an issue such as police brutality or discrimination against Asian immigrants, helping those with fetal alcohol syndrom, or economic water supply justice, etc. etc. If there is "No principled objection" to including these issues in "the budget" beyond "I don't see how it can be done. The budget simply isn't big enough." Then the functional challenge is imagining/innovating towards inclusion of these concerns.

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Re: grundomatic's journal

Post by jacob »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Mon Apr 17, 2023 9:54 am
Very true, but given that in accordance with the model, Green is "higher" than Orange, alteration of perspective may reveal this as feature rather than bug. I mean, there is a level on which this is like when an experienced machinist informs an experienced mechanical engineer that the concept created by the design team simply can't be created to the specifications and tolerance required and/or vice-versa. Flattening hierarchy brings the machinist to the table with the designer.
Oftentimes the hierarchy is flattened so much that an additional eight and technically inexperienced consumers sit in on the same table demanding that the solution be BOTH cheap AND fast AND good. When the experienced techs who are ultimately responsible for constructing the the solution inform the community that the requested design specs are impossible (in reality), the community insists that "nothing is impossible"; "use some creative intelligence", or "just adjust your attitude".

To Green, reality (physics, engineering, economics, ...) is just another narrative. That's fine. The more pernicious problem is the belief that narratives can be altered at will "using some creative intelligence" and/or all narratives are equally valid. While this works for opinions and fantasies, it doesn't work for facts and reality.

Therein lies much of Green's struggle with reality(*). The Green vMeme is not so much "higher" than Orange as much as it's historically successive to Orange at a societal level. This doesn't mean that individual who adopt the Green vMeme has any understanding of historically older vMemes; nor that Green "transcends and includes" Orange which in turn transcends and includes ... and so on. Rather, the Tier1 vMemes tend to be counter reactions that [over]correct the worst mistakes of the previous vMeme---and coincidentally also destroys some of its features. For example, Orange tends to sort people according to how well they are able to understand and manipulate objective and interobjective reality. This creates a hierarchy. Green doesn't like hierarchy, but the Green solution is to replace the idea of an interobjective reality and insist that all realities are subjective. (A better idea would have been to say that "yes, some people are objectively better at some things that other people but that doesn't mean that they should have more rights, say.)

(*) Also why while Green is great at pointing out problems, they kinda suck at providing solutions that are rooted in reality.

Anyhoo ... I think the main challenge for an individual who comes from "successful orange" and wanting to add green is to first "learn to suffer fools gladly" and adopt the mantra "not my circus, not my monkeys". Basically suspend/downplay the drive towards "the best objective result" and focus on being part of "a process we can all enjoy". For example, don't think of meetings as something that's intended to generate a decision or a result. Better to see them as a place to meet and catch up---results are coincidental to this process---and if the result turns out to be poor then that's just a chance to get together as a community and try again.

Add: A very simple stereotype that's useful to keep in mind Aristotle's concept of friends. Orange leans towards utility. Green leans towards pleasure. Both will insist they're leaning towards virtue, but effectively, they're willing to give up utility for pleasure or vice versa.

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Re: grundomatic's journal

Post by grundomatic »

@Jacob

After that first reply I got the Spiral Dynamics ebook from the library to read again, because I obviously don’t understand what green is, or probably even how SD works. I was thinking that if I aspire to ERE, and ERE is yellow, and yellow does transcend and include the tier 1 value memes, that I should try to really understand green and not just know about it. I want to do my WL6 HW in group mode. Work on developing social and emotional skills I guess, because sitting at home learning technical skills by myself sounds terrible. Your advice is good because I can feel my orange antibodies flaring up when I think about endlessly talking about feelings when there is a problem to be solved, but I could totally relax into “getting people together is the point”.

@7wannabe5

You’d win that bet. Also, great job deciphering and summarizing what I want to do. Reinventing Organizations was already in my ebay cart for when I finish all the other reading that’s currently piled up.

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Re: grundomatic's journal

Post by jacob »

grundomatic wrote:
Mon Apr 17, 2023 5:23 pm
After that first reply I got the Spiral Dynamics ebook from the library to read again, because I obviously don’t understand what green is, or probably even how SD works. I was thinking that if I aspire to ERE, and ERE is yellow, and yellow does transcend and include the tier 1 value memes, that I should try to really understand green and not just know about it. I want to do my WL6 HW in group mode. Work on developing social and emotional skills I guess, because sitting at home learning technical skills by myself sounds terrible. Your advice is good because I can feel my orange antibodies flaring up when I think about endlessly talking about feelings when there is a problem to be solved, but I could totally relax into “getting people together is the point”.
Okay, I was a bit confused for a moment. I gather you're talking about ERE2, because ERE1 is as yellow (integrates systems from many different fields to create a new vision) as a steam engine is orange (uses science and technical means to increase human power application).

It's useful to think of the vMemes as paradigms. The concept of skills or rather upskilling [only] exists within the orange paradigm. Green does not think about the social and emotional aspects as skills(*). Rather, the social and the emotional is the water these fish swim in. I think the biggest differentiator---what may be the hardest to accept, alternatively the most welcoming for bad fits---between orange and green is that green will sacrifice the individual for the group, whereas orange will sacrifice the group for the individual. What I mean by that is that an orange (or yellow or red) person would rather give up the group than themselves ... whereas a green (or blue or purple) person would rather give up themselves, that is, adopt the ideas of the group, in order to stay in the group. This has huge implications for any proposed change.

(*) A skill is a means to an end. For green, the social and the emotional are not the means. They are the end themself.

In green, individuals are thus implicitly expected to conform to the group norms. If they don't they are frozen out. To green (and blue and purple) being frozen out of a group is a terrible punishment(**), whereas orange/yellow/red don't really care that much.

(**) For example, a very green op-ed compared children playing computer games as literally being the equivalent of a solitary confinement prison sitting alone in the dark without getting hugged, celebrating a soccer goal with others, or talking with their parents. It was simply inconceivable to that author how some might prefer analyzing an intellectually rich(er) computer generated world on their own compared to constantly being together with others.

It's not like feelings are discussed constantly, but they play a crucial role in the underlying structure. You're not valued as a human because you have interesting ideas and grand visions (that's yellow) or because you're successful and get results (that's orange). You're valued because you're a warm body that has emotions and feelings. That's the connection green craves. As such, great care is taken to make sure that processes and behavior cater to people's feelings as a group. (The "fuck your feelings"-meme is specifically targeted at pissing off green in the culture wars.) This means co-creating rather than working individually. Doing things together is always preferable to doing things yourself. Regular check-ins of what people are feeling about this or that development in the conversation or work process. Physical and virtual hugs. Lots of dialogue in the belief that all problems can be solved by talking and establishing a "human connection". Sitting down for a cup of coffee to talk it out in order to solve conflicts is a common trope. It's perhaps best summarized by the slogan "I work with people, not visions or results". If you're yellow or orange, you probably just died a bit on the inside hearing that slogan.

Okay, maybe that all sounds pretty bad. However, it may also sound pretty good depending on your needs and wants. Imagine a group of people who actually care about how you're feeling rather than dismissing [feelings] as irrelevant to the task of hand. A group that cares about what you feel rather than just the results you can bring to the table. A group that will readily accept you as your own (you don't even have to marry into a family or join a religion) as long as you conform to its values of social harmony, that is, caring as much about how the people in the group are doing as they care about how you're doing.

To some, this is catnip. To me, it is not. People who tend to thrive in this paradigm have a very well developed Fe, so **FJ-types will take to this like fish in water (see what I did there?). Diving into green (I did it again) may help develop Fe if you embrace it. I don't so when I use Fe, it almost always feels fake/inauthentic. **TP-types have Fe as their 3rd or 4th function and so may actually find it enjoyable to play around with.

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Re: grundomatic's journal

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

jacob wrote:*TP-types have Fe as their 3rd or 4th function and so may actually find it enjoyable to play around with.
Not just enjoyable, but intermittently necessary, like returning to a warm fire after spending too much time out on the cold plain of abstraction.
The Green vMeme is not so much "higher" than Orange as much as it's historically successive to Orange at a societal level.
I am going to be succinct, so as to avoid hijack of journal not my own, but at least two learned books on the topic that I have read pretty much directly contradict this statement. Bjorkman (who is no Mr. Kumbaya Cuddles) in "The World We Create" states that the arguments of Postmodern scholars (although there are, of course, many bad apples in this barrel) "conceptually beat those who are modern or religious at their own game." Postmodern scholars are actually more rational and critical than Modernists in their view of science, and "the Postmodern take on ethics is simply conceptually superior" in qualitative and quantitative terms.

IOW, I think we are arguing at cross-purposes, because you are characterizing "Green" as average human who turns up at some community protest meeting, and I am imagining Green/Postmodern as being represented by Pierre Bourdieu or Peter Berger.

Overly simplistic example of how Postmodern trumps Modern would be it is necessary to comprehend how subjectivity applies to science to argue against the Rational Optimist who would inform the hopeful Social Progressive that "bright future inclusive of virtually unlimited cheap energy and Universal Basic Income is close at hand."

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Re: grundomatic's journal

Post by jacob »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Tue Apr 18, 2023 10:16 am
IOW, I think we are arguing at cross-purposes, because you are characterizing "Green" as average human who turns up at some community protest meeting, and I am imagining Green/Postmodern as being represented by Pierre Bourdieu or Peter Berger.
Agreed. I'm using the colors based on what they look like when observed in the wild and how they behave in practice. Philosophically, I agree that postmodernism > modernism. In practice, there is a difference in green whether it is implemented by e.g. an upper middle class eco-yoga circle, a Scandinavian government institution, or a progressive American undergraduate, none of whom would be able to explain how the scientific method works. This begets constructs like Boomeritis in the US, where green is relatively new on a societal scale, which is not found in Scandinavia, where green is several generations old.

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