grundomatic's journal

[grundomatic]

Dec SR 76%, IR2 2.53
2022 SR 71%
2022 spending 2.01 J, or 1.04 "US J"
Reference: viewtopic.php?p=260987#p260987
I used 2021 data for GDP and Population

Quite happy with how the numbers turned out--without tracking expenses and income I would not know that our SR is that high. Having said that, I know I need to drop the focus on $ and instead focus on quality of life.

I had much more written, then lost it due to being signed out for taking too long. I'll come back later with that material. I'll also start writing longer posts in a word processor with autosave, then copy it over. Honestly, though, the last sentence of the last paragraph pretty much captures it, so maybe I'll just leave it at that. Yup, I'll just report back the successful changes instead of expounding on what I plan to do and why.

Happy New Year!

[grundomatic]

I read a Systems View of Life, and have been continuing to try and adopt a systems perspective on my lifestyle. One thing I read in the book, and I’m sure that any systems thinker knows, is that small changes in a system can have an outsized effect. The book also reminded me of the concept of ecological succession, which is also covered in Early Retirement Extreme.

Here’s how I’m adjusting my lifestyle system. First, I realized that maybe I’m making a mistake trying to go directly from my salaryman system to a renaissance man system. I need to make a plan for succession. A forest doesn’t pop up on a bare lot overnight. I’m thinking of FIRE as the intermediate step.

In my current system the salaryman work module is by far the largest, where large amounts of time and even larger amounts of energy go in, and large amounts of money and stress come out. I’ve recently been mishandling this stress–as in not handling it at all, letting it build in the system, and having it flow (unwanted) into everything else. Realizing that I currently want to keep the work module in order to build a different system, the system needs a redesign.

In Burnout: The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle, the author suggests handling stress with a physical activity to let the body/mind know that the stressor is gone and one is “safe”. First, I’m coupling my neglected exercise module to the work module as a place for stress to go. Stress, energy, and just a little time go in, health comes out. This is happening right after work to immediately handle the stress. I find this helps me with the “why” of exercise. I understand this runs the risk of not exercising when the work module goes away, but I’m somewhat confident I can reactivate the bicycle transportation module and some active leisure modules when that happens.

The next thing I’m doing is working on my investing module. With over half of my money going to that module, it seems like I should have a good understanding of what is happening there as well as some amount of control, especially since I will be relying on this module for money output in my intermediate FIRE system while I’m building up other modules.

Next, I’ve decided it’s not worth it right now to dump extra time and energy into the cooking module in order to reduce the money input. In fact, I may increase the money input slightly in order to reduce the chances of failure in the module. In other words, if I splurge on new, fancy ingredients to cook a few new things, and have a stock of healthy, easy, but maybe expensive snacks, and maybe spend a little more to make things easier in general, I can avoid the “eat out” module, which is much more destructive to the total money (and health) used up in the system. Actually, the eat out module will probably stay around, but be combined with socializing in order to both solve for food and socializing at the same time.

Finally, beyond the above I’ve given myself permission to just relax and do whatever I want in order to keep the current system going. This is kind of where all the question marks show up for me. It’s a recurring theme. How do you systems thinkers think about relaxing in your ERE system?

[mathiverse]

How do you systems thinkers think about relaxing in your ERE system?

How did you relax in your pre-ERE system? What are the differences between then and now that are standing in the way of relaxing in your ERE system?

I don't have an ERE system yet, so I can only say that when I try to make a transition in that direction I'm not relaxing all that much until something becomes habitual (or IOW, unconsciously competent).

[ertyu]

I think that "relax" as a term is a very salaryman idea. "Relaxing" is needed because during the long salaryman hours one suspends one's agency and works at psychological violence to oneself; one endures; one doesn't allow oneself to stop or to start at a different time, for instance, because it's not "stopping time" and because there's a set time when one needs to clock in or show up and begin work regardless of how one feels. "Relaxing" is defined explicitly in negative terms: the time when one can switch off and not be subject to someone else's agency, the time when one does not have to force oneself to push through with a task regardless of one's inner state, etc. The purpose of this "relaxing" is specifically so that one can go and do the entire subject-yourself-to-another's-agency-and-suck-it-up thing on the next day.

i think that in an ERE system, in its aspect of being about "producer realization" and making the explicit focus doing work under your own agency (non-alienated labor: you own the product of your work and the product of your work explicitly becomes part of how you've shaped your world and surroundings; you're not alienated from yourself as you perform it, too, because performing it does not require suppressing yourself and your agency so you can perform according to someone else's) -- in an ERE system, the very nature of relaxation would be different. I imagine it more as recovering from bodily tiredness for instance rather than as "that time when we discharge stress."

i am still a salaryman so it might well be i am idealizing the state of non-salaryman-hood, so id be very interested in hearing from forumites who are further along the way of recovering their own agency

[grundomatic]

Relaxation prior to ERE was standard consumer hobbies. Buying bicycles but not riding them nearly enough, video games, going out to drink and eat, watching TV, traveling, gambling, collecting MtG, etc. I guess what is different now is that I am considering outcomes beyond "fun". I guess it wasn't all bad, I did commute on bike, sell on ebay, and get an MBA pre-ERE. It's just that most things that are beneficial now feel like "work". I heard that ain't the way it's supposed to be,

leading me to believe that I've still got it all wrong. It could also be that burnout/depression has left me with no desire for anything.

@ertyu, that sounds about right.

[avalok]

in an ERE system, the very nature of relaxation would be different. I imagine it more as recovering from bodily tiredness for instance rather than as "that time when we discharge stress."

A much more fulfilling form of relaxation to boot.

There is something to be said for certain types of stress, because they provide fulfilment in overcoming them. A less charged word would be challenge. The mainstream FIRE model (i.e. work so that you can relax indefinitely) falls down here because the lack of challenge leads to so many ailments. My grandparents are currently withering away because they have retired in order to relax. It feeds into what Jacob has said (most recently I heard it on the Through Conversations podcast) about achieving FI being completion of level 1, the start.

How do you systems thinkers think about relaxing in your ERE system?

The times that feel the best for me are not necessarily when I am relaxing, but when I am renewed and fulfilled by what I am doing. E.g. harvesting the yearly crop of potatoes is not physically relaxing (or mentally on a bad year), but the fulfilment keeps a zeal alive. if the drive to do is kept going by an intrinsic desire, I don't find there is much need for relaxation as downtime.

[jacob]

Before designing the ultimate system that doesn't distinguish between work and play, I suggest looking at stress as a multi-variable problem. One activity may be stressing in one regard but destressing in another regard. For example, "fun exercise" stresses the body but it also tends to take the mind of mentally stressing issues for a while.

Focus on homeotelic solutions here. Avoid heterotelic "band aid"-solutions ala "This activity sucks, so Imma buy some short term rewards [that typically have long term consequences]"

[AnalyticalEngine]

While this article is written from a "become the greatest corporate executive ever" perspective, I've found the paradigm here useful for dealing with burnout: https://hbr.org/2001/01/the-making-of-a ... te-athlete

The basics of it are that you need to balance stress (work in the article) and destress. Destress can be things like exercise, relationships, eating healthy, purpose and mission, etc.

[grundomatic]

Thanks for the input, everyone. I’ve 100% neglected the “whole” of my life. Essentially pandemic -precipitated burnout, stress, and depression combined with what’s probably a good ‘ol mid-life crisis caused me to drop a couple WLs, forget stuff I used to be at least decent about, and double down on FIRE with ERE flavoring (multiple income streams). Coming out of it, it’s like I’m learning to live again. Post work workouts have been helping. Recently I’ve taken it outside to my “desert restoration” project to add another goal.

What I’ve recently wondered is whether I could just decide to rearrange my values. If I reorder my list, and decided personal development and health are now #1 and #2, and not fun and people, will that work? My ERE walk-and-talk buddy thinks that it would require something like twice daily affirmation, but that yes, I could essentially brainwash myself if that’s what I wanted to do. It seems like it might also be important to avoid (unwanted) external input. Stop copying everyone around me.

Here’s the standard EOM stuff:

Jan SR 51%, IR2 2.18 Wondering the value of reporting these numbers since they can’t be directly compared to previous numbers since changing my pre-tax withholding. Also, I thought tracking IR2 would help motivate me to develop different income streams, but that’s not the direction I’m going right now. Anecdotally we had giant (for us) “COVID Teacher Retention” bonuses eaten up by purchasing dental work, upcoming travel, and going-out type stuff. Home insurance went up 35%. Fourth month with no rent payment thanks to the tenant waiting on COVID relief. Guess I’m living on both sides of the COVID subsidy coin.

[grundomatic]

I have good days and bad days. I’ve reached out to a counselor because I realized I wouldn’t pass the depression screening at my annual physical. Sometimes the ice cold shower is the only thing that gets me moving in the morning.

I can’t tell the difference between recreation and escapism.

Still trying to sort out what I really value. Internal work is hard for me. Extraversion probably doesn’t make it any easier.

Been taking my after-work workouts to the yard to tack on another goal. Removing bermuda grass a couple square feet at a time.

Sooooo much chocolate and baked goods at work. So much for finding the homeotelic “solutions”.

A neighbor restarted the neighborhood association, so I went to a meeting, then a neighborhood cleanup. It was rewarding. I liked meeting more neighbors.

[ertyu]

I can’t tell the difference between recreation and escapism.

imo the name doesn't matter. the important question is, does it add to the quality of life as a whole in addition to providing "R&R"? If you're drawn to doom-scrolling just so you can blank out while twitter posts change on the screen, then it probably doesn't add to the quality of your life, and it probably doesn't serve its rest-and-relaxation function well, either. If instead, though, you take your mind off the suckage by, as in this case, meeting neighbors, and it leaves you both having enjoyed yourself and having improved your social network etc, then it's a net plus even if one of the motivations to doing it is distracting yourself from the parts of your life that currently suck.

strength

[AnalyticalEngine]

Sorry to hear about the depression. I think this time of year can be rough for school teachers due to the stress from work combined with the energy low winter tends to naturally bring. It's like the mix of factors make coping at a higher level more difficult. Hopefully things improve when the summer rolls around.

[grundomatic]

Yeah, teaching would be easy if it weren't for the beginning, middle, and end of the school year.

I've recently had some success using function stack theory to better understand myself (my favorite subject) and find some things to help myself out. I can spare everyone the details, or elaborate if there is any interest. The real question is how long the improvement lasts.

I do appreciate the support.

[dustBowl]

Thanks for the input, everyone. I’ve 100% neglected the “whole” of my life. Essentially pandemic -precipitated burnout, stress, and depression combined with what’s probably a good ‘ol mid-life crisis caused me to drop a couple WLs, forget stuff I used to be at least decent about, and double down on FIRE with ERE flavoring (multiple income streams).

I had the exact same experience towards the end of my last working stint. I started eating out all the time, my media habits were terrible, etc etc. Then once I quit and my mental health improved, my habits more or less fixed themselves. I think the kind of regression your described is normal in times of high stress or depression. Other forumites have written about it as well. Don't beat yourself up too much.

What I’ve recently wondered is whether I could just decide to rearrange my values. If I reorder my list, and decided personal development and health are now #1 and #2, and not fun and people, will that work?

I'm tempted to push back on the idea that 'fun and people' should get downgraded in your values list. (With the obvious subtext being that it's your values list so what someone else thinks you 'should' do is irrelevant disclaimer aside...)

Of course personal development and health are both important, worthy goals. But as we've been re-reading The Book chapters on being a well-rounded renaissance human, I'm reminded that most of us 21st century westerners have a bunch of financial capital and basically no social capital. If you're the type of human whose 'people' node is naturally stronger (which I think you might be, based on your self-description in this journal) then you have a unique strength that a lot of us on this forum lack. And that a lot of us in the wider culture lack. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater!

My perspective on this might be slightly skewed since something like a 'people' WoG node is what I'm currently working on strengthening as #1 priority. But I mean, I wouldn't have it as my #1 priority if I didn't see it having value...

Is the 'fun and people' node getting bumped down in the priority list because you feel like it's conflicting with with your other goals? Like (made up example) going out for beers with coworkers would be heterotelic with health and money WoG nodes, something like that?

I've recently had some success using function stack theory to better understand myself (my favorite subject) and find some things to help myself out. I can spare everyone the details, or elaborate if there is any interest.

I'd be interested in hearing you elaborate on this. Stack function stuff as described on this forum tends towards being pretty abstract. I think there would be real value in hearing about how someone applied it.

[grundomatic]

@dustBowl
I was just wondering if I could rearrange my values if I wanted to. The idea would be to apply a finer filter first. List all the fun things, then filter for healthy and free could lead to feeling like I'm "sacrificing" those fun things that get hit on the second or third filter. Also, it'd be a long list--so many fun things to do. Listing all the healthy things then picking the most fun might feel better, like I'm "picking the best option". Also, moving "people" down on the list just helps me do what I want, how I want. I leave that at the top and start doing whatever others want to do, I'll be wasting a lot of money.

As far as how I used the stack function, I basically branched from reading about the functions in general to how the functions behave in certain positions, and kind of used that for "personalized self-help". For instance, the article I read said that inferior Si typically uses personal experience to balance out the endless ideas of Ne. So I sat and wrote out what has happened whenever I switched jobs, and while I "knew" it all already, writing it out forced me to *really* think, and it helped balance me out. For the record, I'm also going to hold Ne's feet to the fire, so to speak. Mopey about work? Cool, let's find a different job. Go ahead, try. No, seriously, thousands of positions on Indeed for you to look through. Surely there's something better. No, they all look miserable? Oh, you want to be FI right now? Great! Let's get out the spreadsheet and cut $10,000 from the annual spend. $100 there, $50 there...not adding up, is it? Tired yet? Having done this a couple times helps tire out the endless possibility machine in my head and focus on enjoying my current life, or at least focusing on all the possibilities there. No shortage of projects around the household. Lentil soup to cook, investing HW to do, ERE friends to respond to, things to list on ebay, games to play, people to talk to, etc.

[dustBowl]

I was just wondering if I could rearrange my values if I wanted to.

Gotcha. I think this is actually a really interesting question that we could generalize to something like "how much control do we have over core aspects of our identity? Can we just like... change them?" (since you know, values are a pretty core piece of our identities). I've been thinking along some similar lines recently. I look forward to hearing about what you discover on this.

As far as how I used the stack function, I basically branched from reading about the functions in general to how the functions behave in certain positions, and kind of used that for "personalized self-help". For instance, the article I read said that inferior Si typically uses personal experience to balance out the endless ideas of Ne. So I sat and wrote out what has happened whenever I switched jobs, and while I "knew" it all already, writing it out forced me to *really* think, and it helped balance me out... Having done this a couple times helps tire out the endless possibility machine in my head and focus on enjoying my current life, or at least focusing on all the possibilities there.

Makes sense, thanks for writing out this explanation. I'm going to look at trying something similar based on your example.

[ertyu]

It was a while ago so I don't remember where I read it, but I stumbled on a blog post by someone who, at the beginning of which "personal development planning period," deliberately sat and listed his values - both what they are and what he wanted them to be. Then, he ranked them in order of what importance the wished they had in the upcoming period (this was often decided according to what values would be most important to success with his goals and the areas in which he wanted to progress.

Then, when he had to make a decision, he deliberately made it according to the above list of values.

An example of this would look something like:

In the next 3/6/9/12 months, I would like to become a stronger person and come into my power as my top goal. I would also like to increase my net worth, but I rank "coming into my power" as the goal with higher priority (there may be any amount of goals for every period, but they are all ranked in order of priority).

Because coming into my power is my top goal, I will decide that "integrity" as a value comes at number one in my list of values (others might be physical well-being, compassion, frugality, family connections ... etc. Also, someone else might conclude that coming into one's power requires some other value, not integrity, at the top of the list).

As such, if I need to make a decision, I will make it such that it obeys integrity first and foremost. For example, if there is a situation where there's an opportunity to save or make money (thus being a plus when it comes to frugality and financial independence), but that would necessitate an action that in some way conflicts with "integrity," I will choose the course of action that is best aligned with "integrity" because integrity comes before frugality and financial independence in my values ranking for this period.

So this person made a formal decision on their values and ranked them in order of importance, and consciously used those to guide everyday life and decision-making.

[grundomatic]

Things in general are getting better for me. My subjective state is improving, even if there is little to no physical evidence. Two weeks ago I reported feeling depressed, and I would not say that about myself right now. The provider never got back to me, so it seemed like with everything ERE, I was going to have to do things myself. Oh yeah, I also recruited ChatGPT to be my personal development coach.

I read a couple books, and using what I learned from those and every other self-help tidbit I’ve internalized over the years, I essentially told myself that people have made it through much, much worse, and that I have the ability to choose how to respond to my current situation. Also, I decided to stop listening to my inner critic (who has been very harsh recently, on myself and everything else) and just believe everything students say to me. I’ll skip the “before” inner monologue, because nobody needs to read those mean thoughts. Here’s what it looks like now:

Them: You’re the best teacher ever!
Me (internalized): Goddamn right I am, kid.

While I know relying on others to gauge my worth is not the best long-term solution, my boss pointed out that my perception of myself was way out of whack. As in my self-evaluation was the furthest from reality (as judged by them) amongst all my colleagues. Imposter syndrome is apparently common among teachers, but I had it the worst.

So this plus the other small changes mentioned over the past couple months have helped me feel better. It’s also possible I’m just on the upswing of the emotional wave. I’ve been keeping a sporadic private journal to help track how I’m feeling. Usually only the lowest lows and biggest triumphs make it in there, but it’s a start of a record. Applying appropriate distrust of my memory along with my feelings.

End of month money stuff:

Feb SR 73% IR2 2.18

Doubting the usefulness of tracking this monthly anymore. The spending tracking still seems useful. Still no rent money–will address the rental house some other time.

[AnalyticalEngine]

Glad to hear you're feeling better. Learning to choose how you frame things really does help a lot with depression. Because life is so complicated, any narrative you assign to any experience is not going to capture the full reality. When you realize this, you realize that which narrative you assign is actually up to you. Learning to interpret events in a less negative light really does help a lot.

[grundomatic]

@AE

It’s a world of difference…who knew?

@ertyu

So looking back, I’ve been working on sorting out my values for nearly two years. Two years ago it came up and determining what I valued “seemed like a good idea”. One year ago I actually made and ordered a list of values, trying to use honest reflection on both my feelings and actions. Now, I’m wondering if I can or should try to rearrange those values, just like the blogger you mentioned.

Upon contemplating more, I think my problem may come from “reading ahead in the curriculum”. Essentially, finding what seem like better values, but not quite being at the place to *really* hold those values. Or at least manifest them.

For instance–equitable resource use seems like a great value to me. However, I am not sufficiently skilled to bring down my use to the ultra-low (fair) level. Or maybe I’m just not that motivated, meaning I value something else, like comfort or social norms, more. And that feels like a failure.

I guess what it comes down to is balancing exploration and seeking higher values with just living my life. If I’m feeling frustrated, I’m probably out of my depth. If everything is easy and comfortable, though, I’m probably just not challenging myself. Feels like I’ve been doing the former since starting my journal here, so maybe I can error on the side of the latter for just a while and cut myself some slack.

I will note that this year I declined taking my annual ski trip and did not regret it one bit. My values do seem to be changing.