Western Red Cedar's Journal

[ertyu]

I empathize as well, WRC. I also find myself in a situation which, rationally speaking, shouldn't be taxing or a big deal. My job right now isn't as well paid as yours, but it is fairly easy in the grand scheme of job suck. There are many, many worse options. Yet the desire to escape and the inner, "please no don't do this to us" is strong. It eased off for a couple of months, but it returned after a little after a year after I went to work after not working 1.5 years due to covid. I was very happy at my current job at the beginning. Looking back, it was just an intense relief not to have to struggle against and slog through resistance on a daily basis. I do not know why I feel such strong resistance - it is certainly disproportionate to the objective degree of job suck. I also don't know how to reason with the resistance or how to make it stop. So I definitely feel you on the desire to leave a situation which is objectively quite cushy (I am not paid nearly as much as you IT guys but I still save 3 months' spending for every one month I spend working). +1 to keep posting about it, you're not alone.

[2Birds1Stone]

Just piling on to say that you're not alone. I WFH, earn well, have a job that takes maybe 10-20 hours of actual time in front of the computer per week, a great boss, etc.......and I can't find the fire escape quickly enough. This choice is not irreversible, if you're meant to return to this life a way will present itself in the future.....you won't know until you step away.

We're gonna need to start a "recently unemployed MMG" here soon.

[mathiverse]

I've already left my job, but I can relate as well.

[ertyu]

We're gonna need to start a "recently unemployed MMG" here soon.

BAHAHAHAHA

I keep beating myself up because you're not supposed to want freedom-from, you're supposed to find freedom-to, and therefore if I have such a strong desire for freedom-from which I can't suppress via rational means, I must not be doing it right. But then this post of Vicki Robin's jacob linked on another thread really resonated. She writes:

For me, FI has simply been the freedom to pursue a higher purpose – to grow spiritually, to learn, to create and to serve.

For some reason, I had the misconception that freedom-to is freedom-to-activity: that you need to know what you will fix, build, write and publish, etc. Her post truly brought home that it's ok to simply want to be time-rich so you can learn and play for no further purpose other than it fulfills you.

[Bicycle7]

I'll add on and agree with a lot of the sentiment here. I have a job that like others are saying has some really nice qualities. I have some autonomy, I am doing something that I feel is at least somewhat positive/aligns with my values and isn't overly stressful.

Though then there is the side that wants to grow in other ways that is being slowed down by working 40 hours a week most of the year. It's helpful to hear what you brought up Ertyu, the balance of freedom-to do things we could consider productive and maybe other things that might not ostensibly look productive.

@WRC- It sounds hard to be dealing with burn-out at work and additional stress in life. I wish the best for your transition in the next few months from work to other pursuits.

[Western Red Cedar]

Thanks all for the kind words, feedback, and reflections. Apparently posts about quitting one's job and burnout really facilitates a lot of discussion

This journey of 'when' to leave your career is a really valuable one to read about, so I appreciate your thoughts. Keep posting about it!

I've touched on this before, but I think this choice depends a bit on where someone is at professionally when they discover FIRE or ERE. I had already invested two years into a master's program and was just starting a new career when I found MMM. I'm probably a bit different in that I never worked for Megacorp and I chose to sacrifice some level of pay to work in the public sector. I believe the work I'm doing is valuable. I've never made anywhere close to the tech salaries I see discussed on the forums. But, I can take solace in the fact that I'm doing well by doing good.

I've tied some of my personal identity into my career. I've spent the last ten+ years working on some of the issues Vicki Robins highlights as a potential focus for post FI life. This makes stepping away quite challenging for me, but I also realize that burnout isn't necessarily unusual and simply stepping away for awhile can be restorative. I need to remind myself of this....

This choice is not irreversible, if you're meant to return to this life a way will present itself in the future.....you won't know until you step away.

There are so many potential options down the road, and I don't know what WRC in a year or two will actually want.

There are many, many worse options. Yet the desire to escape and the inner, "please no don't do this to us" is strong. It eased off for a couple of months, but it returned after a little after a year after I went to work after not working 1.5 years due to covid. I was very happy at my current job at the beginning. Looking back, it was just an intense relief not to have to struggle against and slog through resistance on a daily basis. I do not know why I feel such strong resistance - it is certainly disproportionate to the objective degree of job suck. I also don't know how to reason with the resistance or how to make it stop.

One concept I've been thinking about lately is living authentically. Gabor Mate discusses how we often compromise based on what we believe is expected of us. We adopt normative behaviors at a very early age and carry them with us through life. It starts with our parents, but is socially reinforced repeatedly. We adopt coping mechanisms that can lead to some level of success, but it can also wear on our physical and mental health. I wonder how much the inner angst around work and careers described here is the result of ignoring our authentic selves. Rationalization only seems to work for so long.

[Crusader]

I signed up for another credit card last week as I think I'll have some expenses (medical bills, new tires) that will help cover the 3 month minimum spend. The signup bonus should be worth $800 in cash or up to $1400 if I want to play the airline transfer game. Apparently it had been over two years since signing up for my last card. I dabbled in credit card hacking for a bit 4-5 years ago, but I found it took up a lot of headspace and didn't really enjoy jumping through some of the hoops. I'm also not a big fan of hitting some of the minimum spends. These days I'll just sign up if I know we have a major expense coming up. That seems to be every other year.

Back when I played around with CC churring, I would just buy a Costco cash card equal to the amount I need to spend (I shop at Costco for groceries and gas anyway) and that would effectively allow me to immediately achieve the minimum spend. Just a tip if you ever wanted to do this again.

[mountainFrugal]

I am waiting patiently for you to pull the trigger @WRC. You will be fine. You might be interested in reading Quit by Anne Duke. One take away from her research is that that when people are already at the contemplating quitting stage, when they finally do, a majority said they waited too long. Staying in the job is also giving up all the things that are not your job... Her framing is quite convincing for a number of scenarios. It might be an ideal time to read this book, even if to come to the opposite conclusion.

[AnalyticalEngine]

For some reason, I had the misconception that freedom-to is freedom-to-activity: that you need to know what you will fix, build, write and publish, etc. Her post truly brought home that it's ok to simply want to be time-rich so you can learn and play for no further purpose other than it fulfills you.

In my experience, freedom-to is a much harder problem to solve than freedom-from by an order of magnitude. In a way, this makes sense when you reflect on it. Freedom-from is just about making bad thing X go away. Freedom-to is the problem of staring at a blank canvas with the objective of turning it into a masterpiece. It requires a lot of small skills to pull off. Just like how painting requires that you know perspective, know color theory, know how to control the brush, etc, freedom-to requires you have certain skills needed to navigate the world. If you've been so bogged down by work/burnout/physical or mental health issues, etc, you may not have had the time to build the skills you need for freedom-to. And sometimes you have to stop the fire--fix the burnout--before you can paint the canvas. That may indeed involve quitting in some situations.

[ertyu]

Freedom-to is the problem of staring at a blank canvas with the objective of turning it into a masterpiece.

I think this is what I disagree with. I think it's alright to just be.

[jacob]

In my experience, freedom-to is a much harder problem to solve than freedom-from by an order of magnitude. In a way, this makes sense when you reflect on it. Freedom-from is just about making bad thing X go away. Freedom-to is the problem of staring at a blank canvas with the objective of turning it into a masterpiece.

I am not sure. There's likely a CCCCCC chain for both. As it's defined, it pertains to positive freedom. The corresponding negative freedom would look like,

copy - remove
compare - replace
compile - reorganize
compute - ?
coordinate - ?
create - ?

Filling in the blanks would require some thinking, but overall the simplest possible solution to adding something is to copy someone else, and the simplest possible solution is removing something is to cut it out. To wit, frugality noobs begin by thinking that frugality means giving something up.

[7Wannabe5]

How ‘bout relinquish, reframe, repurpose, reveal.

[jacob]

How ‘bout relinquish, reframe, repurpose, reveal.

Ooohh, I like!

copy - remove
compare - replace
compile - reorganize
compute - repurpose
coordinate - reframe
create - reveal

?

[7Wannabe5]

"Decisive: How to Make Better Choices in Life and Work" by Chip and Dan Heath discusses at length the possibility of reframing in reference to making what often initially seems to be a Stay or Go decision. So, for instance, at the level of compile/reorganize, the opportunity cost of the 40 hours spent at full-time job needs to be considered. Maybe there are a lot of good things about what you are currently doing for a living, but not at the level of 40 hours/week. Heath bros make the point that by analogy, most consumers don't make the leap from Buy $400 game system vs. Don't Buy to Buy $200 game system and $200 games as third possible option. Unfortunately, there aren't as many options made readily available on the How to Spend Your Time/Vigor market as the How to Spend Your Money market, so it's even more difficult to make opportunity cost comparisons. It's like we're all made to shop at the Everything 40 Hours! store.

[mathiverse]

Semi-ERE seems to overlap with the idea to get the $200 games and the $200 game system option.

[Western Red Cedar]

@Crusader - thanks for the tip. I don't have a Costco membership, but I know I can play that game elsewhere.

I am waiting patiently for you to pull the trigger @WRC.

As they say...good things come to those who wait.

Thanks for the recommendation. I heard a couple podcasts a few years ago about Duke's Thinking in Bets, but haven't heard about Quit yet. Seeing her pop up in my podcast circle was a bit of a surprise as I remember seeing her in the WSOP back when I was playing texas hold'em regularly with friends in high school and college. It is pretty impressive to look at her professional pivot.

-----

In regards to the freedom from/freedom to discussion, I think the push/pull dynamic exists on a spectrum. Depending on what I'm dealing with, I'm likely somewhere in between the CCCCC-RRRRR chain. I suspect that the freedom-from experience is highlighted at a higher rate because many of the posters who frequent boards like these are dealing with the fog of work.

Semi-ERE seems to overlap with the idea to get the $200 games and the $200 game system option.

Well....A couple years ago I borrowed an old NES from my brother along with a crate of games we collected. It is my only gaming system since giving up my original X-box in college so I could focus more on school. There is probably some kind of metaphor in there for why I'm hanging out here

[Salathor]

I've probably flirted with burnout for at least a couple years, but have used various tricks or strategies to grind through. Lately I've really struggled with motivation in ways that I haven't for almost a decade. That is a pretty clear indication that something has changed and it isn't necessarily a short-term issue. I was entertaining a 12 month sabbatical for 5+ years, but at this point I have no desire to return to traditional, white collar work.

This was EXACTLY me, and I'm just hitting the 15 month point of not working, and honestly going back doesn't sound so bad now (although now that I know myself more I know the exact things that I really didn't like about my old job and will not be taking a role that requires those things again. Having ERE as an option means that I can be choosy like that, which actually feels powerful).

[Western Red Cedar]

You might be interested in reading Quit by Anne Duke. One take away from her research is that that when people are already at the contemplating quitting stage, when they finally do, a majority said they waited too long. Staying in the job is also giving up all the things that are not your job... Her framing is quite convincing for a number of scenarios. It might be an ideal time to read this book, even if to come to the opposite conclusion.

@mf - I had a chance to check out Annie Duke discussing her new book with Ryan Holiday last week. She leans into some of the research of Richard Thaler and the behavioral economists which I've read in the past, so I was pretty receptive to her arguments:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTqUwiZj7xk

This was EXACTLY me, and I'm just hitting the 15 month point of not working, and honestly going back doesn't sound so bad now

Thanks for chiming in Salathor. I appreciate the opportunity of learning through the lived experience of others. Simply taking a break to focus on other priorities, or exploring a new lifestyle, doesn't necessarily mean you can't go back.

[Western Red Cedar]

January Update:

Financial: NW declined by just under 14k in December and we are down about 16k for the year.

I'm still exploring a potential withdrawal strategy focused on buckets. This will likely include buckets in "1 year" and "2-5 year" categories composed primarily of cash, a cd ladder, and I bonds to fund some slow travel. The idea being that I draw down from the liquid/cash components of the portfolio in the first few years of semi-ERE to give equities additional time to grow and to see how we feel about work, volunteering, purpose, relationships, and the slow-travel lifestyle. In theory, this should lower my sequence of returns risk.

We may find that we really just needed 6-12 months to change things up, go on some adventures, and take a break from work. On the other hand, we may find that we want to keep the adventure rolling and continue slow-traveling while we are relatively young and those options are available. If we opt for the latter, I'll plan on completing a roth conversion up to the standard deduction near the end of 2024. One of the reasons I like this general strategy is we can easily course correct and return to work after a year or two away if the market falls apart, if we want more structure, or if we want to be closer to friends and family.

I've done some pretty detailed calculations for the last bucket which is basically 25+ years down the road. I'll have a little over 3 JAFIs per year between my pension and SS estimate if I never make any additional income. DW will also have SS income. That leaves roughly a 20 year gap to figure out how to access the portfolio. I'm thinking about another bucket from the "20-25" year timeframe in which I'll have full access to earnings in my roth. That leaves me with a pretty large bucket from years 6-19. I may break that into smaller units, but I can simply pull funds from the 457 as needed, pull Roth principal, or pick up some periodic work.

This is all still a bit rough, but thinking about it all in more detail has made me more comfortable.

Professional:

I extended my big project at work by at least another 10 weeks. I also talked with my boss and told him I need some more support. He's open to that but hasn't been able to make it happen yet with other priorities. I've also immersed myself into some of the new responsibilities for my new position over the last month. It's been both humbling and inspiring to interact with large groups of skilled, intelligent people who all bring a different expertise to work on common goals. I'm enjoying the opportunity to learn and the exposure to new work.

Musings:

After seeing a few journals pick words for the year, I ended up choosing "transitions" for 2023. I was talking with DW and coincidentally she had selected a word for herself, which isn't part of our normal routines. She chose "authenticity" for 2023.

[MBBboy]

On buckets:

https://www.kitces.com/blog/managing-se ... -approach/

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Buckets_of_Money