COVID19 and boycotting Chinese made

Intended for constructive conversations. Exhibits of polarizing tribalism will be deleted.
chenda
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Re: COVID19 and boycotting Chinese made

Post by chenda »

nomadscientist wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 1:52 am
The depressing truth is that China did virtually nothing effective to prevent the Japanese conquest; the Japanese continued being able to occupy pretty much whatever they wanted in coastal China as late as 1945 when they were long since obviously doomed. China was "saved" by the USA making it in effect a US creation and the CCP was put in power by the USA and the USSR, with the USA being the more important factor. Obviously no Chinese wishes to hear that (see my previous comments).
This is clearly false; China had massive role in defeating the Japanese Empire, without which Japan's ability to fight the western powers and Soviet Union (who to Mao's disgust supported the Nationalists) would have been enormously strengthened.

Incidentally, Moscow was only saved from Nazi occupation by the Siberian Army, who Stalin was able to recall west at the last minute to save the city. They had been expecting a Japanese attack from occupied Manchuria, but fortiously Japan was was busy elsewhere.

@whitebelt - Yes, he delivered stability of sorts and a willingness to persue an independent foreign policy for China. Of course, western meddling in China goes back long before Japanese encroachment. I have no idea if the Nationalists would have done the same.

nomadscientist
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Re: COVID19 and boycotting Chinese made

Post by nomadscientist »

chenda wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 5:20 am
This is clearly false; China had massive role in defeating the Japanese Empire, without which Japan's ability to fight the western powers and Soviet Union (who to Mao's disgust supported the Nationalists) would have been enormously strengthened.
Japan would have lost to the USA regardless of any changes in circumstances. China did absorb Japanese resources, but inefficiently and ineffectively, with no effect on the outcome. The speed at which the US conquered Japan was determined almost entirely by logistics.

chenda
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Re: COVID19 and boycotting Chinese made

Post by chenda »

@nomadscientist That's by no means certain at all, a pacified China could easily have altered numerous outcomes which were certainly not inevitable. (Not least a war with the Soviet Union, with which Japan had fought major border skirmishes in the 1930s)

Regardless, China's resistance against Japanese imperialism deserves to be acknowledged and respected.

This interview with a historian gives a good primer on the topic:

https://psmag.com/news/china-lost-14-mi ... tten-66482

(Technically Japan herself wasn't conquered militarily. The emperor narrowly choose to capitulate after his empire was shattered, nuclear war and the inevitable prospect of a destructive Soviet-American invasion and occupation)

Jason
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Re: COVID19 and boycotting Chinese made

Post by Jason »

The existence of this thread reflects that at a minimum, China is damaged from a public relations standpoint. US/Soviet relations were relatively calm during the Cold War until they accidentally shot down Korean Air lines 007 and relations changed. The virus is somewhat of an analogous event and has led people to question whether a market economy that permits free enterprise and is now actually encouraging innovation as opposed to mere replication, can sustain itself under a government that disallows political/social/culture innovation. Trade naturally involves the import/export of ideas. Historically, it was not limited to mere goods. But that's pretty much been the case here, which is ironic in that China became a mercantile country when Buddhism, which permits/encourages market economy was imported from India and displaced Confuciusism which saw a market economy as inherently corrupt. The fact that China has not gone in front of the world and stated "this is what happened and we are responsible in some regard" leads to the rise of suspicion/racism/conspiracy theories the same way the USSR denied/obfuscated the Korean plane event until flight recordings were released in 1993 which told the real story and one materially different from the one first told.

chenda
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Re: COVID19 and boycotting Chinese made

Post by chenda »

Jason wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 9:26 am
But that's pretty much been the case here, which is ironic in that China became a mercantile country when Buddhism, which permits/encourages market economy was imported from India and displaced Confuciusism which saw a market economy as inherently corrupt.
Could you elaborate on this ? My understanding was Buddhism blended somewhat with confucianism and taoism into a sort of low-key traditional folk religion.

Jason
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Re: COVID19 and boycotting Chinese made

Post by Jason »

(@) Chenda

For a deeper dive, I would suggest William H. McNeill "The Rise of the West." But in a nutshell, as he explains it, Buddhism came to China from the middle-East and India and provided the moral foundation, customs and practices to sustain long distance trade nets. In order to trade with other geographic areas in a good faith manner, basic commonalities need to be in place and Buddhism provided it. Confusicisusm (sp) saw the exchange of goods only as a profit center providing no societal benefit. Use of the China canal system evidences the change. It was already in place, but before contact with Buddhism, it was used mainly as a tax collection and agricultural transfer system. After Buddhism, it transformed into a method of commodity exchange connecting disparate regions throughout China.

Edit: From a macro perspective, McNeill would claim that China's rise of trade/commercial power in the present day is a reversal of European eclipse of China beginning in the 15th century.

Alphaville
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Re: COVID19 and boycotting Chinese made

Post by Alphaville »

while it’s definitely an embarrassment for china, i’m much more concerned about the loss of usa global leadership concealed behind the smoke curtain of the china blame game.

remember the time when the world used to turn to us for answers? our national response continues in disarray, we still have no masks/we refuse masks, there is no widespread testing or contact tracing, our social fabric is ripping apart to the point of making the north dakota governor cry, the erosion of government and institutions is showing up at the worst time, and we’re looking like a has-been next to countries who have basically sailed through the pandemic. that’s horrible public relations too. can the world trust us anymore?

china, sure, whatever... we but have an nightmare of our own making in our hands and blaming china isn’t going to fix it.

here is fareed zakaria’s latest article on our misguided response to china—looks like the democrats are joining the bandwagon! hopefully it’s just propaganda for the elections and not a declaration of policy.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... story.html

i feel sorry for us.

chenda
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Re: COVID19 and boycotting Chinese made

Post by chenda »

@Jason, thanks, looks like an interesting read.

Alphaville
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Re: COVID19 and boycotting Chinese made

Post by Alphaville »

white belt wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 9:45 pm
@Chenda @Alphaville

I'd argue that Jiang Kai Shek was the one that liberated China from quasi-colonial rule and ended the "century of humiliation". Mao's cult of personality exaggerated his role as liberator when in fact the KMT played a much bigger role in ridding the country of Japanese invaders.
sure, although the point of my anecdote was not historical. it was more about supporting your idea that chinese people might prefer national unity and power over this or that ideology.

of course one individual is not statistically significant, but my conversation with the professor was eye-opening, as the guy was very americanized, had some important academic roles, and yet was willing to forgive mao his crimes because of what he saw as the achievement of national unity. this reflects a sort of hierarchy of needs.



on that note, and regarding your other question:
white belt wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 9:49 pm
I do wonder if the West will actually support Hong Kong if the proverbial push comes to shove. I mean the only thing that's protected Europe from Russian invaders is the US presence in NATO and as far as I know Hong Kong does not have any sort of agreements with any other countries (since it's technically part of CCP controlled China). The reality is that the average Westerner just doesn't have any skin in the game.
i think hong kong will eventually be swallowed with nobody left to stand up for them. 2047 looks far away for our 2 year election cycles, but china knows how to wait and play the long game.

a post cold war usa with no major adversaries trampling iraq in the name of protecting kuwait (protecting the oil really) is one thing... going after china to protect hong kong democracy at the same time that we’re losing our global leader status and destroying our alliances is another.

it’s a dismal outlook for hong kong, and taiwan afterwards.

nomadscientist
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Re: COVID19 and boycotting Chinese made

Post by nomadscientist »

chenda wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 6:53 am
@nomadscientist That's by no means certain at all, a pacified China could easily have altered numerous outcomes which were certainly not inevitable. (Not least a war with the Soviet Union, with which Japan had fought major border skirmishes in the 1930s)

Regardless, China's resistance against Japanese imperialism deserves to be acknowledged and respected.

This interview with a historian gives a good primer on the topic:

https://psmag.com/news/china-lost-14-mi ... tten-66482

(Technically Japan herself wasn't conquered militarily. The emperor narrowly choose to capitulate after his empire was shattered, nuclear war and the inevitable prospect of a destructive Soviet-American invasion and occupation)
I know a lot about this topic, and I dont intend to get into rebuttal matches with articles. If quotes are decisive, this is what a Nobel prize winning historian had to say:

"The talks of the British and American staffs were sadly distracted by the Chinese story, which was lengthy, complicated, and minor."

- Winston Churchill, The Second World War

Actually the unimportance of the Chinese is only the second most interesting implication in this quote.

Peanut
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Re: COVID19 and boycotting Chinese made

Post by Peanut »

white belt wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 9:49 pm
The reality is that the average Westerner just doesn't have any skin in the game.
Those that do, have already shown that they will capitulate to China's interests. Remember the Daryl Morey tweet? He was forced to apologize for supporting Hong Kong by the NBA.

Jiang Jieshi liberating China sounds like a Taiwanese nationalist storyline tbh. "Corruption and decay" characterized the latter years of Nationalist rule in China, from what I remember of EA history in college. Chenda's book looks interesting. I was taught neither the Communists nor the Nationalists fought the Japanese very much, but the former did more than the latter.

@Alphaville: EA prof also emphasized to us that Mao keeping the country together postwar will forever be a huge deal to Chinese people. Remember how the city of Shanghai alone had been sliced and diced into various foreign concession zones.

Alphaville
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Re: COVID19 and boycotting Chinese made

Post by Alphaville »

Peanut wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 1:33 pm
@Alphaville: EA prof also emphasized to us that Mao keeping the country together postwar will forever be a huge deal to Chinese people. Remember how the city of Shanghai alone had been sliced and diced into various foreign concession zones.
yeah. and also, in recent history, china has reasons to stick to an authoritatian model and fear quick democratization. people in power in china today saw what happened to the ussr—the territorial disintegration, the loss of power, their many crises under yeltsin (including the inability to pay their army), the rampant mafias and the rise of the oligarchs... it took putin’s iron fist to restore order in russia. and yes, he’s a terrible man, but he’s also the political result of a failed democratic transition.

reepicheep
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Re: COVID19 and boycotting Chinese made

Post by reepicheep »

I wonder what Barnett would say today.

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a ... ture-0111/

white belt
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Re: COVID19 and boycotting Chinese made

Post by white belt »

I listened to an interview with Kishore Mahbubani, former UN ambassador of Singapore. I haven't read his new book called Has China Won? The Chinese Challenge to American Primacy, but it seems relevant to this discussion. I feel like he provides a more impartial perspective since he is neither Chinese nor American. One quote in particular stood out to me in reference to how the CCP stays in power:
Kishore Mahbubani wrote:The bottom 50% in America are feeling very pessimistic about their future. And by contrast, [...]the bottom 50% in China have had their best 40 years in 4000 years. [...] I emphasize that because many Americans keep saying, "why aren't the Chinese overthrowing the Chinese Communist Party?" If the Chinese Communist Party has given you your best 40 years in 4000 years, is it rational to overthrow them? Why not milk them for another good 40 years?
[Moderator: Link removed. See discussion below.]

chenda
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Re: COVID19 and boycotting Chinese made

Post by chenda »

@whitebelt - Interesting interview. (I assume all that militia stuff at the beginning was a joke ?!)

CS
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Re: COVID19 and boycotting Chinese made

Post by CS »

@chenda
I don't think they're joking.

ETA - having that content linked here normalizes it. It possibly also connects everyone here with groups the FBI are investigating as terrorists groups. "Preemptively and immediately eliminate the old and infirm" is not something to salute but to prosecute.

It is all confusing because the site itself seems to be about China.

ffj
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Re: COVID19 and boycotting Chinese made

Post by ffj »

Since Tennessee is a state away from me I thought I would do a little sleuthing and try to see what the hell this guy meant and I'm pretty sure it is satire in a weird way. I think, but it's so bizarre that it has me scratching my head.

He says Jeremy (Goldkorn), who is apparently the co-host couldn't make it because he is in a safe house run by the Middle Tennessee Patriots, and has just gotten back from a protest where they are advocating the end of the shutdown and "immediate and preemptive elimination of the old and infirm".

I couldn't find any group called the Middle Tennessee Patriots, nor any protests calling for the death of old people, nor does Jeremy mention anywhere on his Wiki or linked in that he belongs to a militia, much less a colonel.


This whole thing is weird to me. Anybody want to see if they can get to the bottom of this? It is so odd that it's curiously interesting. Maybe somebody that actually listens to the podcasts can shed some light?

jacob
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Re: COVID19 and boycotting Chinese made

Post by jacob »

I think therein lies the problem of having outrageous statements masquerading as "jokes". The idea is to say something that is way outside the Overton window and if called on it proceed to claim "it was just a joke" and if not, subtly move the Overton window. It's like dog whistling and Poe's Law combined.

Upon further reflection, I've decided to remove the link. Normally, I allow a very wide Overton window, but the "joke defense"-strategy annoys me greatly. It basically violates the principle of charity. There are certain topics (like talking about bazookas in airports) that are widely understood to so serious that they're never funny. Kinda goes back to the whole "it's not what we talk about but how we're talking about it"-philosophy of moderation. Point being that there are certain subjects that are so serious/risky that they should never be talked about in a joking manner. Weirdly, if there had been zero confusion about whether this was meant as a joke or not, I would have let it stand.

ffj
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Re: COVID19 and boycotting Chinese made

Post by ffj »

@jacob

I need closure, haha. What the hell was the point of what he said? It makes no sense.

Understood though on your call. Maybe I'll do some more research if it still interests me later tonight. I'll keep it to myself though.

Augustus
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Re: COVID19 and boycotting Chinese made

Post by Augustus »

Glad to see people are paying attention to China. To reiterate, is anyone watching troop movements? There is troop build up on indo-china border and in the south china sea. My current speculation is that Xi wants war before he dies, and wuhan coronavirus has sped up his plans as he's now afraid he'll die sooner rather than later.

ETA: to spell that out a bit, in ww2 to counter attack the japanese they had to go through the indo china border. Bolstering the indo-china border could imply they are preparing to handle some kind of counter attack. Or they could be up to their regular asshattery, hard to say.

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