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I am curious where the community leans on the political spectrum. I personally am a socialist libertarian. More specifically, I align and agree with a lot of social democrats.

Welcome to the forum.

You can read through this 110 page thread to get a sense of where we stand.

tl;dr We're quite the mixed bag. Also, on an individual level we tend to think for ourselves and are therefore hard to squeeze into any particular box.

Personally, I don't know.

I choose the Staffordshire Option:

https://youtu.be/LFrdqQZ8FFc

jennypenny wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 09, 2020 11:20 am

Welcome to the forum.

You can read through this 110 page thread to get a sense of where we stand.

tl;dr We're quite the mixed bag. Also, on an individual level we tend to think for ourselves and are therefore hard to squeeze into any particular box.

I read through some of the pages. It seems a lot of right leaning libertarians who love capitalism, free market, and minimum government intervention in society. Interesting...

KeepItReal wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:48 pm

It seems a lot of right leaning libertarians who love capitalism, free market, and minimum government intervention in society. Interesting...

I'd say that pretty accurately surmises the current average. Over the years, the average has oscillated and changed whenever there's been a big thread blowout. These blowouts have also caused most forumites to eventually avoid engaging much in hot button issues. Almost everybody seems to have realized that most political debates have so much collateral damage that they are just not worth it.

@KeepItReal: Certainly some members are more....present than others, when it comes to these debates, to say the least . From a policy perspective, I also identify far more with the left than the right or centrist positions, by Canadian standards. That is not to say I appreciate the sports team mentality to politics, or the performative aspects I see in the political left (e.g. march in climate strike parade while feeling no culpability for lifestyle choices such as travel, consumerism, etc).

KeepItReal wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:48 pm

I read through some of the pages. It seems a lot of right leaning libertarians who love capitalism, free market, and minimum government intervention in society. Interesting...

If it helps, I am pretty leftie. I think that capitalism has an inherent tendency to concentrate wealth and that without redistribution, the stability of the system itself is under threat - so even if you love capitalism, you should be *for* taxes and redistribution. I am also for providing out of taxes services that are most efficiently provided socialized, such as health care (if socialized health care doesn't work, maybe the solution should be to see how to make it work better).

I am for things like paternity leave and people making their hair pink and purple and fucking whoever they want to fuck (and marrying whoever they want to marry) and having whatever gender and pronouns they want. I believe it's people's inherent responsibility to overcome the various ways in which they're stuck up, regardless of whether it comes to gender, ethnicity, religion, orientation, whatever. I don't get why it's such a big deal to listen to a person when they tell you what it is like for them to be in the world and to empathize. Seems much more satisfying than "owning the libs" to me.

If I were American, I'd have voted for Bernie. I think student loans should be canceled and higher education fees in the states should drop significantly. Even on the practical, "economics" level, it would be better for an economy as a whole if education is accessible and demand and family creation aren't constrained as they are in the states. (Yes, even if people get "bullshit" liberal arts degrees - I'd never understand why the right is so opposed to education for the sake of enriching yourself as a human being). Also, having started on "things that are better for the economy," people from northern countries with ageing populations should get off their pasty-white arses and realize that immigration of young, vigorous workers is how you keep demand going and how you get tax revenue to care for your old.

I think everyone has a right to a living wage and to respect at the workplace, rather than having to work 12 hours a day, terrified, in authoritarian environments. Some people would say it's that person's fault for not having saved, whatever -- I think an individual person being able to pull themselves by the bootstraps doesn't fix society as a whole and doesn't account for how many people can't pull themselves up by the bootstraps, whether it's because no one taught them how, or because of childhood trauma, or neurodivergence, or whatever. Furthermore, while i am here and aiming to reduce my dependence on the formal economy, I think other people are free to choose not to, and that this choice should be respected. Etcetera.

slsdly wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:17 pm

@KeepItReal: Certainly some members are more....present than others, when it comes to these debates, to say the least . From a policy perspective, I also identify far more with the left than the right or centrist positions, by Canadian standards. That is not to say I appreciate the sports team mentality to politics, or the performative aspects I see in the political left (e.g. march in climate strike parade while feeling no culpability for lifestyle choices such as travel, consumerism, etc).

Well, the US political system is so different from the general view of a political spectrum. The USA "liberal" is not even close to what the left is in other countries in Europe. Some say that Boris Johnson is more left than the Democrat Party in the USA. I definitely agree with the statement that the Democrat Party in the USA is center right and the Republican Party is more right than that. In my opinion, left in economics is more focus on working classes, resources allocated accordingly, and income inequality (oppressed vs oppressors) while right in economics is more focus on you do the best you can do obtain the resources. Collectivism vs Individualism. However, majority of economics in the US is more right leaning and based on neo-classicism. Left is considered Keynesian economics in the USA. I argue that Marxist economics would be left, but of course being a Marxist or Socialist in the USA is a bad label.

viewtopic.php?t=9290 Political compass for the quantitative approach.

ertyu wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:25 pm

capitalism has an inherent tendency to concentrate wealth and that without redistribution, the stability of the system itself is under threat - so even if you love capitalism, you should be *for* taxes and redistribution.

All other systems also result in a concentration of wealth. Even communism is just a pyramid with a very wide bottom (99.9% have nothing) and very tall & narrow apex. This is just a simple law of nature - things accumulate. Humans figured this out thousands of years ago:

Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them

Having said that, I agree redistribution is the way forward (but not too much of it). Healthcare is the best example - don't think many Europeans would give it away in exchange for lower taxes. Living in constant fear of going bankrupt due to a medical bill must be pretty damaging to health on its own, even if the dreaded emergency never materializes.

Bankai wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:45 pm

All other systems also result in a concentration of wealth. Even communism is just a pyramid with a very wide bottom (99.9% have nothing) and very tall & narrow apex. This is just a simple law of nature - things accumulate. Humans figured this out thousands of years ago:

I will not argue this. Imo it is a fallacy that if one argues against some aspect of capitalism then one must necessarily be "for" "communism." That's cold war propaganda still lurking in many people's thinking, esp. in the "west"

Bankai wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:45 pm

Having said that, I agree redistribution is the way forward (but not too much of it). Healthcare is the best example - don't think many Europeans would give it away in exchange for lower taxes. Living in constant fear of going bankrupt due to a medical bill must be pretty damaging to health on its own, even if the dreaded emergency never materializes.

Yes: redistribution is beneficial to the stability of the system regardless of the exact type of economic system.

Depends on what you mean. In terms of parties I'm a life-long independent. Philosophically I describe myself (tongue-in-cheek) as a conservative, tree-hugging, libertarian. Libertarian because I think we should always (within reason) cultivate individual sovereignty. Conservative because that is a traditional American value I believe in, plus I'm somewhat of a fiscal conservative and think the government should be too. Tree-hugging because I support the national park system and federal wilderness preserves and as clean an environment as we can maintain.

A lot of social issues get wrapped up in the broader categories I gave above (and their opposites) that I don't associate with the terms I used. That's because I had social studies in 1980 and my outlook is rooted in that class. Some of the stuff like conservative = racist that's assumed without even allowance for discussion in today's discourse disinclines me from wanting to advance my education beyond that freshman year high school class.

Probably middle of road. Most of the above responses resonate with me. The right and left talks I hear rarely resonate with me. I've heard gay conservatives make more sense than I expect. I think politics is more theatre than actually trying to improve society until people unite when something strong like a mass panic happens. I've heard republicans and democrats both say things I strongly disagree with. I simultaneously hate and respect different things Trump has said or done. I love the idea of communism but it ends up leading to dictatorships and never has it lead to a true people's society. I love the actual benefits of capitalism but the poverty gets sad.

I believe in science- incentive caused bias allows capitalism and democracy to be better than communism or dictatorship but people also need safety nets to some degree. I liked the idea of freedom dividend from a VAT on technology for USA. I like immigration as it brings in people hungry for wealth. Riggerjack said some things on immigration that I agreed with on immigration but likely won't get implemented. I'm pro drug legalization because I don't like seeing so many people die of overdoses and drug violence that result from a black market. I also think drugs should be strongly educated about so people realize that cannabis really will mess with your memory even if it can be a great medicine and less harmful than sugar.

An abundance based, environmentally conscious, technology driven society would be awesome.

I started out as a registered republican working for a Democrat state elected official and have been moving to the left ever since for over 30 years despite voting for Reagan, Bush 41,43. I am basically a hypocrite if I am honest with myself.

I drive an electric car but own significant oil and gas stocks and still consider myself to be pro-environment and pro-science. I can't justify solar panels financially. I give money to panhandlers on the street but invest in sin stocks and big tobacco. I lament the shrinking middle class but have worked for people and companies that exploit the poor and unfortunate. I am heavily armed with things that maybe ordinary people should not own but in general support some gun control measures. I donate heavily to progressive causes and candidates even though it works against my financial interests. I have spent my career in banking and insurance and have seen people harmed by the companies I earn a living from.

I loathe the current WH occupant and wish terrible things for him personally, but he has done things that financially benefit me. I try not to think too deeply about it. My neighbor is a cop and I really like him but often distrust the law. Pro drug legalization but do not partake in a state where pot is legal. Most of my friends are conservative and somehow we still get along. I used to be religious but not so much anymore….In general I dislike most overtly religious people as I feel they have an agenda. I think most people that are moderately successful struggle with a similar juxtapositions. I really don't know. I guess I am an independent.

According to Jacob's link I'm:
Economic Left/Right: -8.0 (toward Left)
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.85 (toward Libertarian)

I self-identify as a technocratic liberal. I value leaders who understand and communicate the issues with nuance and have strong execution. My core values and beliefs are radically left and communitarian in the context of the United States broadly, but I'm willing to play ball on incremental progress to get things done.

Hindutva.

Adolf Hitler and Ghandi are the famous politicians I respect the most. Ghandi's image is still kinda in fashion, but his ideas aren't. Hitler's both are ilegals in most western countries. Trees are then probably the closest thing i have to a political affiliation.

I used the PoliticaCompass.org test back in 2017, and again just now. I don't like the test questions that much. Also I don't believe or understand that political views could be accurately summarized on only two scales. (when something like Myers-Briggs, for example has four. And the psychologit's "big 5" has 5)

This was from taking the test in 2017:
Economic Left/Right: -1.5
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.03

And I retested right now:
Economic Left/Right: -3.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.13

On the IDR Labs test, just now:
13.9% Left
33.3% Liberal

These tests both put me in the lower left box. I think that my actual political views also include some strong elements of the upper left box (Left-communitarianism (Social Democracy)) and the lower right (Right-liberalism (Libertarianism))

I think a very important axis would be wether one sees humans as a part of nature, or masters of nature. Many ideologies that are very close to one another on the compass are in reallity opposed because of this subject.