Daylen's Instinctual Dump

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daylen
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

Partially as beige is left-brained too (along with red and orange). Though there is also another pattern where "tier two" reflects back into "tier one". By extension, turquoise reflects back into purple (becoming more mystical). Beige introduces an element of survival into yellow, only now the ego is broader and more well connected (thus not so ego-centric in practice).

Super orange works pretty well for people in many areas of the world, especially when many of the externalities are shoved somewhere out of sight (e.g. in landfills and oceans). Also people tend to associate with people at their color and thus may only occasionally interact with someone at green in sticky/novel work situations or in passing with college protesters.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Gotcha. Yellow is most likely to have complex overview of global survival. All I really care about at the moment is deciding whether or not to go get my colon removed in 2nd World country for $12,000, so total reversion to Beige , yet I keep reading books about global survival to distract myself from gut pain. So, maybe Yellow is just mostly free enough to scratch another itch?

My multi-millionaire friend associated with more Red than Green, so your suggestion might be right. OTOH, he might have been a very pessimistic eccentric Yellow.

daylen
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

Most people do not really fit neatly into one color, though they tend to have a center of mass so to speak. Many will be orange in the streets and blue or green in the sheets, and perhaps red or yellow with the cheeks.

From the perspective of yellow, everything is interconnected and thus scratching an itch on the other side of the world isn't much different from scratching your back. Though, unlike green, yellow is not likely to go to a troubled area and start spreading peace and love as the higher-order consequences are obvious.

The scientific-industrial-rationality-complex is a super attractor. It seems that for highly left-brained people centered at orange, yellow is required to point out the paradoxes that arise from the sharp dichotomous splits foundational to this complex. Almost no amount of orange v green debate will work in such cases. Marriage can sometimes work. Psychedelics will most certainly scatter a tightly held worldview, perhaps not for the better.

Though, being too pushy most likely will lead to the birth of your own personal demons.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Well, my multi-millionaire friend was in the camp of grouchy old men inclined to say something like “Won’t make a difference because the Chinese.” before patting me on the head, so..?

I know I have some Orange and some Yellow, so I guess my center of gravity must be Green, but that doesn’t seem right, because I feel like I am way more left-brained than most of my female friends.

I’m also trying to figure out whether my scheme to take advantage of the sexual repression of affluent Blue/Orange men towards releasing financial resources in the direction of my permaculture project and/or the education of underprivileged children was primarily Orange, Green, Yellow, or maybe even Red?! Maybe there should be a Crackhead Yellow sub-level?

daylen
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

Sounds quite blue of him to say. Yellow can be grouchy in its own way but probably isn't going to scapegoat or blame the "other".

Noam Chomsky seems fairly left-brained yet still mostly green. Though, we are probably pivoting to sharply on this distinction now. :)

Averages or centers are pretty much always misleading. To really get a good sense of how these colors emerge in you and in society as a whole, it can take years and lots of contextual discernment work. Also it helps significantly to compare several of the different "growing up" or psychological development models/systems as they tend to overlap with slight yet revealing differences. This paper by Cook-Greuter is the most detailed source I have stumbled upon: http://www.cook-greuter.com/Cook-Greute ... 97p[1].pdf

No idea on that last one. :lol:

7Wannabe5
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Okay, based on my skim of Cook-Greuter, I guess maybe I’m at the stage where your last ditch effort towards narrative is extending the map, because I grok what that is like. OTOH, I told my therapist that I am lately leaning towards acceptance of my narrative as tragi-comic in alignment with my suggestion that if I travel to the tropical island nation where I might have my colon removed for $12,000, it will probably be hit with global climate change caused storm of the century which will take out the grid while my guts are hanging half out in the operating table.

daylen
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

If we allow conop (concrete operational) to be "as if" and formop (formal operational) to be "what if", then network-logic is as if nothing else exist but these what if's.. then what? I do not think that an element of "creativity" or "vitality" is necessary in explaining what happens here unless you forget during the process. The explanation for what arises will be unique when varying what if elements. I think this is a partially a problem of agents identifying with their dream world as if it is not real or less real than the waking world (it becomes an "other"). Though, if you are conscious for the ride from nothing to dreaming to waking then what arises just is what it is. It is as if the mind expects to wake up but what if the mind has always been awake?

daylen
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

No amount of duality juggling will work in getting people to experience this for themselves, though. So vitalism is a good hedge in case people just aren't having it. :)

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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by jacob »

@daylen - In that [identifying the workings of the universe with one's personal druthers] assigning the X-factor to a "creative drive" or vitalism is part of the yellow vmeme; similar to how "mathematical/instrumental science", "God", "the gods", "the spirits" is the ontological basis of the orange, blue, red, purple vmeme respectively.

Would also note wrt the discussion above (And this forum in general) that the spiral moves between differentiation/integration and individual/people orientation (the warm and cool side)... and that this forum runs on the individual side mostly expressing red, orange, and yellow with blue and green struggling to get a foothold. So we're somewhat self-selected.

Whereas all these systems insist that typology is an independent variable to ego development, I'm not so sure! Like you said---I'm going to re/paraphrase---temperamental type is a strange attractor to ego development/philosophy. (But perhaps this is just a particular ego-thing :-P )

7Wannabe5
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Maybe the spiral takes on a different “shape” for rational male, emotional female, rational female, or emotional male types/temperaments/identifications.

I just watched an episode of Mayberry RFD in which Aunt Bea (with whom I oddly identify on some level) and her club of garden ladies fight to prevent the building of a new road through Grover’s Woods. Obviously, Bea is Blue towards Green, but what was her Orange phase?

daylen
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

Thinking about a website/interface for visualizing/interacting with twitter data across a broad range of users where "user type" is a bundle of different models derived from various tweet characteristics across time. User types becoming aggregated at various resolutions and distributed across various topologies with various controls.

daylen
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

I want to watch culture in real-time.

daylen
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

What happens when a social-network becomes hyper-aware of itself? Are there bifurcations in the system state-space that become possible upon a certain measure of self-reference(*)?

(*) Either from within or from without.

daylen
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

If one social-network can become more aware of itself, then several social-networks could become more aware of each other. What next?

daylen
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

Oh wait, scratch that, twitter doesn't allow data to be used to infer user philosophical beliefs.

daylen
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

I heard the idea of a "nested commons" floating around but isn't that a bit oxymoronic? Leading to a tower of babel situation whereby deeply nested networks gain knowledge or insight into shallower layers?

Also, Taleb and others talk about the chronic instability of additional currencies, network collusion, and so forth. So that at best cryptocurrencies either become global fads or temporary local stabilizers in corrupt political environments.

Now sure how this all relates yet. Furthers my belief that trust in a "system" is never going to be enough. We need to trust each other to have any chance at thinking and acting at a scale that can solve the meta-crisis.

daylen
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

So even if enough communities emerge with "tier two" characteristics (yellow, turquoise, coral, etc.) to approach something like 10% of the population, how will these networks mesh in a healthy manner with current networks. How will the legacy networks learn to trust these emerging "wisdom" networks? Can this happen with or without some kind of social token system?

daylen
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

And how is this not just a larger scale version of Plato's philosopher-king situation? I mean, these wisdom networks would need to know and remember their place/role. They would need to know when they are leveraging without holistic purpose or union. They would need to be an emerging fad without the faddishness.

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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by jacob »

daylen wrote:
Mon Aug 30, 2021 7:51 am
I heard the idea of a "nested commons" floating around but isn't that a bit oxymoronic? Leading to a tower of babel situation whereby deeply nested networks gain knowledge or insight into shallower layers?
Like a holarchy I think the point is that knowledge (information) transfer gets discounted the further away it exists from the decision making process. It leads to tower of babel iff the entire metaphysics is reductionist, that is, a desire to e.g. enforce rules from the "top-level" on all lower levels ditto understanding the top level as the sum of all the lower levels (because "everything reduces to physics"). Nested commons would still recognize the rules but give priority to "local rules" followed by regional rules followed by global rules. E.g. a virus would prioritize "virus rules" followed by "biochemical and cellular rules" followed by "chemical and animal" rules, etc. Discounting works in both/all(*) directions.

(*) So as not to fall into the unidimensional "size-trap".

Cf localism or various variations of "centric" thinking where rules/effects are not recognized beyond whichever centrism one is all. Ditto globalism (turquoise?) where one globalist perspective governs all.

A way to think about it is the "doing the right thing is better than doing things right" ... but that's the perspective of the top level. At the bottom-level it's better to "do things right" but respect the top level in terms of what those things are. Conversely, the top-level should not dictate "how to do things right".

daylen
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

I see, so perhaps a better rule when approximating depth locally in a holarchy is "temporarily transcend and roughly include". Indicating a perpetual openness to sharper information and alternative representations. Then perhaps the "omega points" of culture can be beacons of turquoise or suggested global alignment projects which are taken into consideration by yellow negotiators that listen in to the relevant local circumstances.

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