Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Where are you and where are you going?
daylen
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

Scott 2 wrote:
Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:48 pm
I'm open to diversity, but theory has to rest on a foundation of practice.
I would like to give a more complete response to this as applied to my own life. I apologize for getting defensive. Interestingly I think this relates to my story. Around the time of grade school, I started developing a counterbalancing personality to my original personality. The original being the INTP "theorizer", and the ISTP being the "practicer". The ISTP very rarely comes out online and here on the forum sense it is more of the "shut up and do" kinda personality. Think athletes that never really talk about or can even articulate well what there strategy is.

In a society were everyone around me is wasteful, the ISTP sees an opportunity to capture these inefficiencies. The ISTP is very good at organizing, cleaning, cooking, hosting, and generally "event setup and hosting". These skills being developed over several years of working the kinds of jobs people tend to look down upon. For my ISTP personality, these jobs are simply meditation. Even now when I cook and host an event for up to 100 people (with some help), I feel relaxed in the intensive heat of the moment. I feel quite confident that this mastery of my stress is applicable to just about any situation. This shows with the learning of new physical skills like playing sports. My ISTP brain also likes to dabble in woodworking and a variety of other areas but tends to jump around too much for deep expertise in such areas. For now anyway.

Generally, my INTP side and my ISTP side are slowly balancing out over time. Clearly, I will never be at the same level of "doing" or S as someone who was born with a "sensor" personality. That is okay because none of us need to do everything, but my worth in group settings speaks for itself in that many people say they like to be around me and hire me for gigs ranging from tutoring to house-sitting to computer repair.

I have been inspired by your journal and others here for a long time now. That is partially why I joined the community, so that I could learn from people different than me, people like you.

AxelHeyst
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by AxelHeyst »

daylen wrote:
Tue Dec 06, 2022 5:31 pm
...and the ISTP being the "practicer". The ISTP very rarely comes out online and here on the forum sense it is more of the "shut up and do" kinda personality. Think athletes that never really talk about or can even articulate well what there strategy is.
This resonates. I find threads about doing stuff largely boring - both to read and to participate in. I don't want to watch a football game on TV, I want to play football. Having played a football game, I don't really feel like talking about the specific game I just played. I am interested in talking about offensive and defensive strategies, though, or maybe a new idea for constructing a lifting and nutrition program to become a better football player.

Scott 2
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by Scott 2 »

@daylen - I sat with your post for a day. Here's my question - what are you looking for from me? Why not say we don't connect and leave it at that?

You seem like a smart guy with positive intent. I genuinely wish you well in your endeavors.

daylen
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

@Scott - It's totally fine if you don't wish to continue this further and "disconnect". Though, when you say something appears off about me in a public domain, then I am going to push back a little to try to figure out why. I am genuinely curious because this hints at a recurring pattern in the future(*). To better adapt myself to my environment involves understanding better the agents that populate it. There is no absolute separation of humans on this planet in my mind (everything being connected isn't metaphorical to me but rather an implication of physical coupling between systems that exchange energy).

(*) That is, there is a corresponding archetypal relationship between someone like me and someone like you that goes back for all of human history and perhaps beyond. Isn't that kinda interesting? People use to live with their parents out of the practicality of locally established social networks. Isn't it interesting that moving out of the house to buy another house is seen nearly universally as a right of passage towards being a functioning adult? Do you not think that perhaps this is what, in small part, leads to more waste per person? Do you not think this affects you and your future potential grandchildren via the second law of thermodynamics? I don't mean to sound like a know it all or anything but these seem like important issues on a forum about resilient living.

I wish you luck as well if we decide to temporarily pretend to decouple. :)

candide
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by candide »

Since Scott is saying he wants to "decouple" (your words) and "leave it at that" (his), but you have an earnest questions-- and honestly I would understand you feeling a bit wounded by the exchange-- I'll try a dialogue from where I think Scott is coming from.

First, I am extremely sympathetic to your points about waste-per-person. I did say in another thread that the world is much better with X number of people learning to live well at an amount below JAFI/year than it is with the same number becoming FI/RE, and I do mean that. This is more of a Steelman/ attempt at truth and reconciliation. Here goes...

If you have only netted $5,000 at your peak then that means you have either A) not earned much more than $9,000 any year or B) previously had a higher burn rate than your current $4,000.

If you burned higher before your current economic arrangement with your mother, than so much for frugality and skipping a bunch of WL steps. If the reason is that you have earned so little, that becomes a more complicated matter that could warrant some discussion. Now, a Weakman argument, and one somewhat cruel, would be to point out how easy it is to earn more than that. Whether there is a Steelman position hinges on assumptions, which may be wrong, but would be natural to assume, about how much your mother is having to earn.

Maybe you have tightly integrated her home economy into your systems that you are saving her so much that she is retired and her money is now in runaway mode. That'd be cool. But the picture I think that came to mind was a relatively normal living situation, your mom still putting in work on the open market, allowing you to tinker, take small projects -- the real 4 hour work week? -- and just read and internet all day with access to all the modern comforts and conveniences. And it's just a strategy most of us cannot follow.

To another matter:
daylen wrote:
Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:22 pm
There is no absolute separation of humans on this planet in my mind (everything being connected isn't metaphorical to me but rather an implication of physical coupling between systems that exchange energy).
[...]
(*) That is, there is a corresponding archetypal relationship between someone like me and someone like you that goes back for all of human history and perhaps beyond...
[...]
I wish you luck as well if we decide to temporarily pretend to decouple. :)
Non-dualism is tricky in that it becomes too easy to create the new dualism of the non-dualists and the dualists, says a person smarter than me.

I think it was this monist gambit to compel speech that made me decide to step in. I respect his right to separate/stay silent. I thought you deserved some real feedback and an opportunity to clear up misunderstandings.

daylen
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

Thanks for the feedback candide.

I meant for the "someone like me and someone like you" part to refer strictly to dualistic aspects of our personalities. Everyone has a non-dualistic aspect.

------

This aligns with what I was saying about the WL not being a path I have followed (linearly anyway). My mom and I have developed a pact of sorts where I gradually care more for her in elder-hood in symmetry with her taking care of me in child-hood (we draw the line at giving baths :lol: ). Although we are accumulating slowly now (we also have IRA's), max accumulation is expected to occur in about 10 years or so as the flows being established now have time to grow. Instead of specialization being maximized around early-mid age, it's projected to be maximized around mid-age. I wonder if this could be a more general trend for millennials and gen z? I can't help but imagine others are struggling with finding meaning in the context of continuous online identity tumbling.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

The sort of arrangement that Daylen has with his mother is exactly what is recommended by David Holmgren in "Retrosuburbia: A Downshifter's Guide to a Resilient Future." My DS33, who has been living independently from me for 14 years, and I have sometimes discussed such an arrangement. Would such an arrangement be viewed differently if the late middle-aged Mom was the one who was only working part-time for-other-outside-of-the-home while her son was working full-time on the conventional labor market? I think it would be kind of cool to be like the character in "Vikings" who has her own realm where her sons are the warriors (as opposed to living with some old guy who wants to be king of his realm-blech.)

I would also note for the record that quite a few older single gentlemen on the forum (unemployable, IlliniDave, AxelHeyst, C40) have intermittently moved back in with Mom, Dad, or Spinster Aunt in order to best conserve resources. The real functional break in solving the housing dilemma is between those who are single vs. those who are coupled up. In order to live by myself, I am currently paying $550/month for a tiny apartment which is about as cheap as it gets in a reasonably safe neighborhood. If I teamed up with my 6'3" son, we could rent a small house in a less safe neighborhood, and cut our shelter expenses in half.

Dave
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by Dave »

The adult child + parent(s) housing situation is loaded with the baggage of conventional views on what's "proper" living arrangements per the consumer society perspective, mashed up with massive potential efficiencies of co-living, with the legitimate challenges of social cohesion of doing so in a world where so many people have grown used to the independence of solo living.

I've talked about it a bit in my journal, but since leaving Hawaii in mid-2021 my wife and I have been living with our parents. We've viewed it as a test (with a high probability of failure!) but with massive potential benefits. We do pay rent that comes out to covering incremental costs + some profit, we contribute quite a bit to the household in terms of labor of things that are easy for 30 somethings rather than 70 somethings, and we benefit from a reduced housing outlay and our folks do help us with things as well. We all get to spend a lot of time together...which is often good but also often challenging!

This idea of multigenerational living is status quo in so much of the world but causes a lot of issues in the slice of consumer western society that many of us inhabit. I'm not intimately familiar with @daylen's situation, but on the surface such an arrangement can create tremendous value all around if done properly and in good faith by all parties. Perhaps @scott 2's perspective is such an arrangement could make sense, but it might be better for an individual to first have demonstrated some experience of low-cost living/resource self-sufficiency on their own prior to such an arrangement (i.e. is the arrangement something entered for potential benefit of all parties, or is it entered out of necessity of one party due to inability to succeed outside of such arrangement), but I might be projecting. This perspective likely has some validity when looking at the overall population of adult children living at home, but there are certainly exceptions to this line of thinking, and those steeped in and living out concepts like ERE, like @daylen, are more likely such an exception. I'm not saying I have a thought one way or the other, just an observation.

I'm certainly not here to judge, especially given the amount of comments we get from everyday people about our situation, despite the absurdity given that we lived on our own for well over a decade in numerous cities while building substantial assets and maintaining ongoing income. I'm personally fascinated by the idea of multigenerational living and see it as the classic situation with massive potential but serious challenges (that can in many cases be overcome), and thus I enjoy following along with people trying to make it work and seeing how they approach things.

Haha, love this -
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Dec 09, 2022 10:39 am
I think it would be kind of cool to be like the character in "Vikings" who has her own realm where her sons are the warriors (as opposed to living with some old guy who wants to be king of his realm-blech.)

daylen
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

In some sense, it feels like I have had the manual for easy-road (ERE) for nearly a decade now and have deliberately delayed earning too much from the jobs I am not stoked on. I could have applied for more data analyst type jobs after college instead of giving up after a couple interviews and becoming a farm hand (my social skills were somewhat to blame here). Later when I become a HS teacher for half a year, I got pretty depressed but it would have been feasible to push through for 5 years. After that I have been doing part-time stuff that I could easily scale up to accumulate faster (more hours are always available). What seems to be a path of less resistance into the near-ish future, however, is to invest this extra time into programming.

For my mom, it seems like a rather simple matter of her not having to do most chores, having someone to hang with, and of course my share of the rent. Which of course the feeling is mutual as we are best friends.

In the more distant future, things get a bit hazy but there are several familiar ties to nearby land. Our grandparents land now hosting our uncles family and potentially two other family's in the future. There is a definite trend on my mom's side towards communal living arrangements. My dad's side is a bit more independent yet still mostly live near here. Combined, my mom and dad seem to know thousands of people in or near Lawrence. It seems that I might be in a good position for small scale political negotiation in a futuristic crisis situation. Kinda exciting, but for now I need to figure out how to make this maze game fun.

Scott 2
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by Scott 2 »

I'm doubtful I can offer constructive feedback. However, Axel seems to think very highly of you, so I'm going to try.

I'm not here to tear anyone down. Please keep that in mind.


My core criticism - your posts often exceed your scope of experience. Combined with your enthusiasm, this lends threads a very specific direction. It can discourage others from contributing and break the conversation. Specifically:


1. Your posts ask a lot of me as a reader.

Maybe you drop streams of consciousness. Maybe the point is you are smart. Either way, the complexity conveys a disregard. This make a big withdrawal, before your core point is made. It also tells me something about your experience reaching an audience. Someone who's held accountability for successful communication, writes differently. Fewer points. Less tangents. Smaller chunks.


2. Take away the big words, and your lifestyle looks like a generation Z failure to launch.

I empathize with the circumstances. If not for birth lottery, I might be there. It's not an easy way to live. However - successfully launching demonstrates a broad set of competencies, especially in Western culture. It exposes experiences and options that aren't otherwise available.


3. You have not experienced the lessons offered by earning significant wealth.

Given the forum context and your obvious intelligence, this is alarming. What's the barrier? It's been 7 years and over 2000 posts. Something important is missing. It also means there's no access to uncapped consumption. When saying yes isn't an option, saying no means less.


Again - my criticism is not of your chosen lifestyle. It's entirely related to matching scope of contribution with background. Leaning heavily on theory is not a substitute for life experience.

daylen
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

Thanks Scott for saying this, seriously. I will definitely keep it in mind as I am not here to just talk with big words. That is just part of my learning process.

I sure hope not everyone needs to learn the lessons offered by significant wealth to live a fulfilling life. Though, it is totally possible I am shooting myself in the foot and will end up having to pay the consequences. Then again, any consequences will either break me or strengthen my spirit so what is there to loose? (partially kidding, there is everything to loose)

7Wannabe5
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I sure hope not everyone needs to learn the lessons offered by significant wealth to live a fulfilling life.
This is absolutely the critical point in terms of whether we are likely to survive as a species.

@Scott:

Might it not be the case that you are projecting some of your own anxiety/insecurity related to having experienced adult competencies for the most part only in the realm of professional and financial expertise? Don't you still live in the upper-middle-class realm where your parents reside? How does moving from one side of the golf course to the other constitute a challenging quest into adulthood? How does deciding whether to hire the cleaning lady 1 versus 2 days per week define a signficantly stoic accomplishment?

Scott 2
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by Scott 2 »

@7Wannabe5 - Yes, I am sharing directly from my own life experiences. Go back in time 15-20 years ago, change the subject, and there are forums where I've done the exact same thing as Daylen.

daylen
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

Alright, let's leave it for now at the disagreement I have rooted in how either of us can know much of anything exact about each other based on outside appearances.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Scott:

I apologize for going off like that. My mother bear energy was provoked. I respect your contributions to the forum, and will extend benefit of doubt to the possibility that your remarks were intended as awkward big brother tough love of some sort.

@daylen:

I apologize to you also. You are obviously perfectly capable of handling this on your own with greater degree of diplomacy than I possess.

UrbanHomesteader
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by UrbanHomesteader »

I admire that Daylen called his Mom his best friend. It's fantastic that they are openly talking about their life strategies together, including eventual elder care.

I've had some pretty profound thoughts about the aspect of family living together, from the opposite end. I have recently heard stories from a couple of different people, 2 sepárate responsible middle aged adults who own rural property mortgage free, who have elderly or disabled adult family members, and they not-so-subtly if not directly tell those family members that they are not welcome to move in with them, even if the alternative is homelessness. In some factions of the U.S. the duty to be independent in terms of housing and economic activity is also seen as the right to not take care of family, especially when the family of origin is seen as dysfunctional (a term which could be applied to most American families on some level).

I'll be following along Daylen's journal to hear how things progress.

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