Lifespan

Your favorite books and links
theanimal
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Re: Lifespan

Post by theanimal »

Time restricted feeding is a form of intermittent fasting. Dr Longo and others seem to refer to intermittent fasting as <24 hrs in papers. One example here: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMra1905136

KRUMPn
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Re: Lifespan

Post by KRUMPn »

Just a heads up to anyone interested, the kindle version of Lifespan by David Sinclair is on sale for $1.99. I picked it up and it will be moved up to the front of my reading list since the podcast has been fascinating.

theanimal
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Re: Lifespan

Post by theanimal »

One of the things they were talking about in the most recent episode was biological age tests. The current offerings range in the hundreds of dollars but they were saying there should be new commercial offerings soon for something like $2/test. I'm curious, has anyone here done a blood test with the purpose of finding out your biological age?

Jiimmy
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Re: Lifespan

Post by Jiimmy »

Nah, I am interested though. Would totally do it for $2, if/when they’re available.

KRUMPn
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Re: Lifespan

Post by KRUMPn »

Agreed, I'm uninterested at the premium price. Especially since these are really only useful if taken regularly to see if what you're doing is working. I also have concerns with the data stored with these types of tests. I had a mild interest in the 23andMe tests a while back, but I couldn't get past the fact that my genetic material is stored in a company that I'm not sure I trust and it's being associated with personal information at some level (even though they claim it's non-personally identifiable as stored). I could see these types of tests having the same issue. I don't know if I have a justifiable reason for the aversion to this, but for some reason it bugs me.

theanimal
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Re: Lifespan

Post by theanimal »

The data privacy bugs me as well and has kept me from taking any of the tests. The company they mention (Inside Tracker) claims to anonymize, encrypt and obfuscate the data so that it can't be traced to you. At the moment, I still don't feel comfortable trusting a company with that kind of information.

KRUMPn
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Re: Lifespan

Post by KRUMPn »

I think there are ways around this (using Privacy.com/gift cards since none of this can be bought with cash anymore and a pseudonym to buy the product), but this doesn't stop them from having genetic material. Although it would be misinformation so maybe it's even better than no information. I don't know if I see it as being worth it for these tests/results. Although if they truly gave you as much information as purported and for a relatively cheap price maybe I'm wrong.

Scott 2
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Re: Lifespan

Post by Scott 2 »

Great book. I recommend it to my Mom, in hopes she'll reconsider her smoking. I might suggest it to a close friend, in hopes he'll reconsider his meat heavy diet.

Some things that jumped out at me:

1. He seems to put intermittent fasting at the same level as calorie restriction, even 16:8. Comparatively, that's so easy. I can eat twice a day without trouble. I did note he sees spending some time hungry as essential to tripping the processes. So someone who calorie restricts, but stuffs themselves on vegetables, isn't really doing the thing. A multi-day fast still looks daunting to me.


2. While exercise is encouraged, there's a direct conflict between the things one does to maximize muscle mass and what one does to maximize lifespan. Sinclair encourages low protein, no meat, few animal products and long periods without food. He also looks the part. That's a tough quality of life trade off, IMO. Although, I am reconsidering the twice a day protein shakes, used to boost my vegetarian diet. And I got some edamame, to make more use of plant proteins.


3. He makes a mild argument for replacing beer or whisky with red wine. No alcohol still seems best, but I am exploring the substitution.


4. The emphasis on being uncomfortable, as a positive input into our longevity, resonates. Cold showers. Hot saunas. Sleeping cool. Exercising in the cold. Etc. I've always been wired to prefer the cold, so I liked this part. Still hesitant on the cold showers though. I remain interested in a device to make the bed cooler at night. Price is the only barrier for me there. I like the implied slower pace over a long life. It suits my temperament.


5. The supplementation gets beyond where I am comfortable. Omega 3's - sure. I take D3. I thought about adding K2, but it looks plentiful in a vegetarian diet. Resveratrol? Daily metformin? NAD boosters? I am less sure about those. My initial reaction is to focus on lifestyle factors and wait to see how all the powders play out. Especially for the end consumer, usage seemed very subjective, rather than data driven.

Here I cheated and look beyond the author's book. There is a broad life extension biohacker community online. In some respects, they remind me of the stock market speculators who identify as traders.

Metformin is hard to get. The sides can be uncomfortable. Resveratrol maybe doesn't do much in humans. Low does aspirin can have negative sides. NMN as an NAD booster - it's not totally clear how bio-available it is. Or what long term sides might be. Then people start moving into the rapalogs...they can make the body haywire fast. I just don't think being an early adopter is wise, when it comes to biology. It's also unclear where Sinclair's financial conflict of interest is. NAD boosters are expensive.


6. Tests and monitoring - Sinclair has a clear conflict of interest with InsideTracker. As well as with several of his other associated product companies. Subscription services are great for him, but really put me off. Also the data sharing issue.

I think there's low hanging fruit for self-directed work. I've been getting my annual blood test for years. One of my goals this year, is to think more critically about which blood tests are run. Maybe it's worth getting extras, or even doing a biological age calculator. Get the heart checked. Etc. Doing this all intentionally, instead of letting my GP blindly run whatever they like, might be smart.

I am definitely interested in better home tools than my Fitbit Charge 2, Polar heart rate strap and Omron blood pressure machine. A continuous glucose monitor is the most interesting, but also least accessible. I think it would lead to actionable feedback.

The smaller step of an improved tracker - like a Charge 5 or an Oura ring - I hesitate on. I know they would be fun. I doubt they better inform behavior changes. However, my enthusiasm for something new might be enough to justify it.


7. His section on the future is the most optimistic writing I've read in years. My general expectation is that I'll die somewhere between 60 and 80. I don't think I'm seeing much past 2060. Part of my interest in FIRE is based on beliefs that:

1. My body is heading downhill at 40 and will be unreliable by 60.
2. The world is headed downhill, with global climate change beyond the tipping point. Things get ugly by mid century. If a more serious pandemic doesn't get us first.

The next two decades are the best I'll have. I selfishly want to make the most of them. If I knew the planet was dying in 2040, I might even play hedonism to the very end. I definitely consider it.


Sinclair's perspective that technology will take us well beyond existing actuarial tables, directly conflicts with my plan to date. While I am stacking odds in my favor, I don't share the faith in humanity or science. This is despite feeling younger over the first year of my retirement.

I like his story better. It gives me pause, to evaluate implications for my planning. Living to 100 hasn't been on the radar. It loosely tests out financially, but practically, it increases my expected retirement duration by 50%. 120? Not even considered. What does that mean for finances, global climate change exposure, social obligation, relationships, joint health, oral health, etc?

If everything in his book is as promised, a rational approach swings much further towards living for the future. There's heavy argument for developing a more adaptable lifestyle, fighting for broader positive change, and maybe accumulating more extensive resources or skills.

On the other hand, living for an uncertain future is a good way to miss out on today's best moments. Not an easy balance.

KRUMPn
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Re: Lifespan

Post by KRUMPn »

Scott 2 wrote:
Sat Mar 26, 2022 2:54 pm
That's a pretty good summary of what I have gotten out of the podcast and book too (although I've only made it about half way through the book so far). What strikes me as interesting/funny is that a lot of the advice has background from ancient philosophy/religion (fasting is ritualistic in many religions and the stoics are a great source recommending voluntary discomfort). It's nice to have scientific evidence backing some of this now, but I have definitely done a lot of this without knowin of the science behind why it works. Maybe the evidence is more important to the more skeptic/apprehensive folk. I just never saw the downside of trying some of this and seeing how it makes me feel based on the experience of folks in the past.

The supplement realm is an interesting one. I have hopes around it for the sake of those who aren't going to go deep into fasting/cold showers/ diet changes/voluntary discomfort (and honestly it appears the supplements have the greatest impact on those that aren't doing those things, at least from my understanding of the literature/interviews I've found). I'm okay being a test subject in the realm of low risk substances (Resveratrol and NR seem to fit this), but agree that I'm not willing to seek out prescription medications, especiallly those with know side effects around quality of life changes (I think it was either rapamycin or metformin that was negatively impacting muscle growth/maintainence, but I could be misremembering). This also fits in to what you say about dietary changes. I'm not sure I'm willing to decimate protein intake and I'm not sure I buy how much of an improvement in lifespan that will buy. This is also compounded by the dubious nature of most dietary/nutrition research IMO (on both "sides" of meat/non-meat). I've fallen into the camp of if it's whole food, it's probably fine. Adjust based on how it makes me feel. The CGM would be a neat thing to validate some of these things individually, but I haven't taken the dip (the cost is more than I think I'm willing to pay at this point, although his ad on the podcast almost got me since they have a non prescription one that is being trialed).

On the tech upgrades, I recently bought a Polar watch with some gift money. I justified it with the thought that it will make me think I need to workout/run/move every time I look down at the thing. So far it has worked, but YMMV. I do hope there comes a day where I can get some of the more advanced metrics without a subscription service and all my data being stored on someone else's servers, but that's feeling like a pipe dream at this point.

Last thing I'll say is that the predictions for the future are what have slowed me down with his book. He presents what almost feels like a fairytale view of the future. He could be correct but at this point I'm not sure I agree. I'd much rather focus on the present then pretend to know what is going to happen. Especially since all of this could be useless if I get hit by a car tomorrow. Could I have added a bigger buffer to the stash before leaving work? Sure, but the cost was becoming too high. I have the confidence that future me will have the capability of figuring things out.

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Ego
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Re: Lifespan

Post by Ego »

Scott 2 wrote:
Sat Mar 26, 2022 2:54 pm
NAD boosters are expensive.
Niacin Cures Systemic NAD+ Deficiency and Improves Muscle Performance in Adult-Onset Mitochondrial Myopathy
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 312030190X
Highlights
•Mitochondrial myopathy patients have NAD+ deficiency in muscle and blood

•Niacin is an efficient NAD+ booster in humans

•Niacin improves muscle strength and fatty liver in mitochondrial myopathy

•Niacin boosts muscle mitochondrial biogenesis and respiratory chain activity in humans
It has to be the form of niacin that causes vasodilation (Nicotinic Acid). Not non-flush niacin. My face, torso and the tops of my thighs become very red and I feel as if I have a sunburn. It lasts for about 30 minutes. According to experts the flush is harmless. Bonus side effect, it also raises the good cholesterol but has other side effects so read more before taking it.

I splurged and bought the Solgar 500mg Nicotinic Acid for $20 for a 250 day supply (if taken daily) on Amazon. I don't take it every day.

Scott 2
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Re: Lifespan

Post by Scott 2 »

@Ego - That is a much better price on an NAD+ booster. How do you evaluate if it helps you? From what I've gathered, you lead a very healthy lifestyle.


@KRUMPn - I have noticed serious yoga students tend to age slowly. Their practices are very similar to Sinclair's recommendations.


I hold mega dosing nutrients to a similar standard as a prescription medicine. With a deficient baseline metric, I'd be more open to side effects. Before I started taking vitamin D3, my blood test showed low levels. After 2500IU daily, levels normalized. Every year or two, I reconfirm.

Within this context, I'd probably be more comfortable taking metformin than some of the nutritional supplements. The substance is heavily studied and regulated. The blood markers and sides are well understood.

Hence my enthusiasm for greater monitoring tools. What can be measured, can be managed. Whether the answer is lifestyle changes or a pill, justification is there. One can also judge the price of regressing. Maybe I want to augment my morning tea with a daily doughnut. What's the impact?

I think my obligation is to sort what I can measure, before experimenting with what I cannot. I do understand there's risk standards change. Maybe in 50 years, we learn constantly level blood glucose is bad. I grew up in the era of trans fats as health food. It happens.

bostonimproper
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Re: Lifespan

Post by bostonimproper »

Quick plug for a book I think the folks on this thread might find relevant and interesting: Triumphs of Experience by George Vaillant. Talks about Harvard’s Grant and Glueck study (80 year longitudinal study on aging). Heavy emphasis on deep social connections, both for senior life satisfaction and longevity.

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Ego
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Re: Lifespan

Post by Ego »

Scott 2 wrote:
Sun Mar 27, 2022 10:55 am
@Ego - That is a much better price on an NAD+ booster. How do you evaluate if it helps you? From what I've gathered, you lead a very healthy lifestyle.
It is a good question. I am glad you asked because you made me really think about it. I starting taking it several months ago, maybe early December. Since then I've had a few months of not feeling particularly good. Aches and pains. I cut back on running and morning workouts as a result. Right now my fitness level is at a multi-year low. I am going to discontinue and see. Glad you asked.

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Ego
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Re: Lifespan

Post by Ego »

Going extreme.

https://blueprint.bryanjohnson.co/

RESULTS FROM 2 yrs of Blueprint:

+ 5.1 yrs epigenetic age reversal (world record)
+ slowed my pace of aging by 24%
+ perfect muscle & fat (MRI)
+ 50+ perfect biomarkers
+ 100+ markers < chronological age
+ fitness tests = 18yr old
+ body runs 3F° cooler

7Wannabe5
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Re: Lifespan

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

$2225 per month for 2000 kcals per day?!?!

Henry
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Re: Lifespan

Post by Henry »

"I just want you to know, that no matter what you do, you are going to die, just like everybody else." Rose Castorini

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Lemur
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Re: Lifespan

Post by Lemur »

@ego - Holy crap and I thought I was optimized. Thanks for sharing that!

I have no intention of following that supplement guidance but the core diet principles, as far as I understand, check out: Avoidance of SOS (added salt, sugars, fat), avoidance of animal protein and dairy. Instead, consume WFPB.

I recently came across someone named Alan Goldhamer (one of the many people who speak about fasting) but he was pro-fasting since the 80s where it was damn near considered criminal negligence to suggest fasting to anyone.

Anyhow, an interesting point he made was that overcoming SOS takes time - and its easy to forget this and not give ourselves a chance. For instance, it was noted that it can take about a month of no added sugars to retrain your taste buds to the point where a banana can give you the same dopamine kick today as a cookie can and 90 DAYS for overcoming fat addiction from things like seed oils or fatty meat. This is important because the vast majority are addicted to highly palatable foods and attempts to quit often don't last long. And a big part of that is I think people are not giving themselves a chance by quitting early. There is emerging talk that water fasting can speed up the taste bud retraining process.

https://www.amazon.com/Pleasure-Trap-Ma ... 1570671974

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Slevin
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Re: Lifespan

Post by Slevin »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:19 am
$2225 per month for 2000 kcals per day?!?!
I think it's mostly in the supplements. That food could be had for <$500 per month.
Diet and Supplements

Diet recipes & Supplements lists are located in the Blueprint Starter Guide.

BY THE NUMBERS
1,977 calories daily
~24% Caloric Restriction
Vegan + Collagen Peptides
70+lbs of veggies monthly
100+ pills daily

MEASUREMENTS
Blood, stool, saliva, urine
MRI, Ultrasound, other

ROUTINE
Green Giant + 54 pills
One hour workout
Super Veggie
Skin/oral/hair/eye care
Travel to work
Nutty Pudding
Third dish + 34 pills

MISCONCEPTIONS
Veganism and Caloric Restriction make you frail

SUPPLEMENT PROTOCOL
Goal is perfect nutrition
Scientific evidence + measurement
Near immediately awareness
104 supplements daily
Vitamins and minerals
Senolytics
Weird coincidence but it was a guy fairly similar to this (who is a professor in Chicago) that convinced me to go vegan and that it was pretty easy to be vegan and very fit / athletic at the same time.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Lifespan

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Slevin:

True, and you could probably do something like put a lb of oat bran in a pair of panty hose, bury it deep in the woods for a month, and then steep it for tea instead of taking all those supplements.

Maybe I will try to lose all my excess pudge by some such method and then sell my secret formula. The general public loves a redemption story! And, I could even throw in the fact that two of my relatives were prosecuted for witchcraft near Salem to make it seem more legit.

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Slevin
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Re: Lifespan

Post by Slevin »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:46 pm
@Slevin:

True, and you could probably do something like put a lb of oat bran in a pair of panty hose, bury it deep in the woods for a month, and then steep it for tea instead of taking all those supplements.

Maybe I will try to lose all my excess pudge by some such method and then sell my secret formula. The general public loves a redemption story! And, I could even throw in the fact that two of my relatives were prosecuted for witchcraft near Salem to make it seem more legit.
:lol: And if you measure way too many metrics, you can probably also combine them in a way that you have a "world record" improvement (I would assume this is especially easy due to the fact that only like 5 people in the world check these things so rigorously).

Without the ridiculousness of the website though, i think the general message is fine. He doesn't need to write ridiculous posts online about it (and I assume he's trying to sell something too), but from what I can tell he eats healthy (though he goes too far in my personal opinion with the supplementation), his workout routine looks solid (and at 1hr/ day he's training way less than most athletes), and it looks like he found a way to connect with his kids (might it be a little unhealthy to turn them all into fitness monsters that are focused on appearance? Yeah totally, but then again thats somewhat of a mirror of the society we exist in).

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