[ranty] Throwing the Family a Bone a Questionable Use of Time

[ZAFCorrection]

My recent conclusion, based only on my experience over a short period of time, is that going out of your way to keep the fam happy is a waste of time. Fiance and I decide to do the deed last spring. We both come from busy, far-flung, and somewhat traditional families, and we also want them to feel included in the marriage. Thus, we go through the process over the past 7 or 8 months of making sure we each have some familiarity (in the same room at least once) and rapport with each other's families, with the culmination of throwing out a few thousand USD to put together an approximately legit traditional wedding that they can all attend.

All the while we are running around like crazy trying to put together a legit wedding on the cheap. Folks, just elope, or whatever else it is that is the path of least resistance in a family-related situation. There is a good chance your efforts are not going to be enough anyway.

[Jason]

we also want them to feel included in the marriage.

You are so fucked.

[GandK]

LOL. I'm so sorry you're going through all that.

Two weddings down, my advice about weddings - no matter what you're looking for - is take time to define the true desired end state, and work toward that with as much cooperation as possible... bearing in mind that your desired end state is not going to equal everyone else's. Go into it knowing that, and everything will go a lot smoother. Example: my mother eloped and regretted it all her life, so she tried to turn my first wedding into the wedding she wished she'd had in hindsight; we fought the whole time. I hated my own wedding. Don't let that be you! The second time around, my boundaries were firmly in place before we ever began. Result: I loved my wedding. As long as you and your partner are on the same page, and are firm about people being there to support your goals and not to live out their own goals vicariously through you, everyone else's problems are their own property.

[Jason]

The whole thing sounds similar to Prince Harry and Meghan Markel. Just without the ceremony and money to hide the trashiness of it all.

[IlliniDave]

Do what your fiance wants for the wedding and tune out the rest. Approach the rest of life similarly.

[George the original one]

Time to counter with your own power games - tell everybody you two are eloping now and watch the fireworks!

[George the original one]

[This is probably where I should admit that wife & I eloped, mainly because my in-laws were on vacation in Russia, and we just held a big bash when they got back. That seemed to please everyone.]

[Riggerjack]

An aweful lot of people think weddings are opportunities to "help" the young couple be more like their own ideas of what they themselves want or wanted.

They call this bonding. The similarity to bondage is not coincidental.

I'm not recommending you do as we did, but suggest it for comparison.

I proposed on top of a local mountain, and we worked out the wedding on the way down. Our ceremony was a 4 hour drive from the nearest invitee, involved camping at a site with few amenities, a 3.5 mile hike to the site, ceremony at sunset, with a 3.5 mile hike back in the dark, to spend the night around a bonfire and camping on the ground.

We had a great time, and everyone who was there, really wanted to be there. Minimal hassles and complications, but also minimal participants. Anyone with any hesitation had ample excuse to beg off, guilt free.

Somehow those who seem to cause the most drama tend to be the first to find other obligations when no part of the ceremony is designed for their comfort or convenience.

YMMV. Good luck, and congratulations!

[jacob]

We were fairly set in our ways about the kind of wedding we had in mind and set down some hard rules. We lost a long-term friendship over them---someone who didn't get invited because we wanted to keep it small and proceeded to take it really hard.

In retrospect, I think we should have bent our rules or made exceptions. Weddings mean different things to different people. I see the bonding a little different and think it's more about bringing the social structure (the family and friends of the couple) together because one is technically marrying into that [structure] so at least the sides should have met.

Now, there are definitely different ways of doing that. A wedding with 300 people that invites everyone definitely sends the message that the social structure is vast but unless it's a multi-day wedding (and some are) people will only meet each other for a few minutes each. The converse holds for a small wedding.

Consider the wedding the full package deal of resolving a social shitshow between the people who are relevant to you both (what could be more fun than that?). As such the wedding not just about the wedding day but also about the planning. You can learn/influence a lot as that happens ... in particular set the tone for future shitshows down the road lest it be set for you.

[Jason]

Maybe put on the wedding invitations "Anyone heard chanting 'Build That Wall' will be forced to the back of the wedding cake line."

[Seppia]

I would suggest to consider the following:
The wedding ceremony is mostly a) for the benefit of your social circle and b) for the wife*
So as the boy I only asked (and aimed to achieve) right of veto.
Set your “musts” but then compromise. It’s likely your family cares more about your wedding than you do.
example

I had a semi-fight with my parents regarding the location.
They are from upper middle class and wanted something fancy, but I was pretty clear we both thought most weddings were an absurd waste of money.
So while DW and I were ideally going to spend a month’s salary each tops, we were ok in compromising to spend 4 months, but not the absurd “multiple years salary” so many people do.
we were willing to compromise more than we usually did, but we would have stayed true to our selves.

* I know this sounds incredibly sexist, but, at least in italy, that’s definitely the case.

[Ego]

We had an experience similar to Seppia.

Mrs. Ego's mother was an extremely status conscious woman and for Mrs. Ego's older sister's wedding she insisted on booking the most expensive church in the city and got the Bishop's choir to perform. That was followed by a lavish over the top reception in an room overlooking the sea where only a handful of exclusive caterers were permitted to serve. The prices were crazy but nobody cared because the her parents were paying and the mother of the bride got what she wanted.

Fast forward a few years and we were getting married. Anticipating conflict Mrs. Ego and I preemptively planned before asking opinions. She booked the chapel of the Catholic girls high school she attended at a cost of $75 for alumni. For the reception we planned to head across the bay and out onto the island where we both worked for the city government. We reserved the beachside park adjacent to the free anchorage where I moored my sailboat. We rented a tent, hired an inexpensive caterer to serve a buffet style meal and hired a DJ. One of my live-aboard friends volunteered to dress as a gondolier and pick us up at the dock then sail us away.

We knew the MIL wouldn't be thrilled with the plans but when she had a tantrum and refused to chip in for anything, we were surprised. For a while we wondered if she would attend at all. In the end she did, though she barely concealed her disdain throughout and never offered to pay for anything.

Everything went great and we lived happily ever after. MIL is dead now. Boo fucking hoo.

[C40]

It seems alien to me that parents would go this far - trying to control details of their adult children's lives and then throwing tantrums about it and damaging their relationships.

I've had it lucky in this regard.

In the first place, my parents seem to let my siblings and I make our own choices. They don't seem to care at all about unimportant details like these (though perhaps they veered too far to the other side - and they didn't really give us advice on important aspects of living well. Perhaps they didn't really even have the experience or understanding to do so)

And, also, I have made decisions on my own starting quite young. I do consider their input, if given, but make my own choices. Most of my choices work out well. My parents recognized this, and rather than pout and try to overcome it, they let it work that way. They probably also recognized the vibe I put off - that if they get upset about it, their upset-ness will be a problem only for them, not for me. Also, I think they probably recognize this as a benefit for themselves - that I can manage my life - and they can get on with their own lives rather than worry about me.

I suppose it may have a lot to do with how much parents identify themselves AS their role of being a parent. This causes them to struggle dramatically against relinquishing control over their children's lives and decisions, because it means losing their own identity. My dad has always found his identity primarily/entirely from career. My mom, I'm not sure. Maybe pretty balanced.

[Ego]

Yeah, that's pretty much how my parents were. Come to think of it, Mrs. Ego's parents were that way with her three brothers as well. Strange, that.

[7Wannabe5]

It can go either way. My DD28 is a more wound-tight type than me, so although I tried to remain as laissez-faire as possible about my role in her wedding, she was such a nervous wreck I felt compelled to step-up and step-in. It was a 3 day affair, because their family and friendship circle were coming in from all over the country, and they didn't want to make people have to get on airplanes just to attend a ceremony and eat one meal. They rented out an entire rural Michigan authentically rustic resort out-of-season, which was actually no more expensive than renting a suburban hall for a day. So, in addition to usual duties of funding 25% of the event, posing for pictures, greeting guests, interacting with my ex-husband and his family as well as new in-laws, fixing any/all random problems as they popped up, I ended up in charge of baking/providing the entire dessert table and out-of-towners' breakfast for almost 100 people. Luckily, I have 3 younger sisters, who although they were mostly drunk for most of the weekend (my youngest sister who prides herself on being the "cool aunt" took it upon herself to stock and man an open tiki bar for most of the weekend, I think fully a quarter of the overall expense of the wedding ended up being ever-flowing assortment of booze), have mad skillz enough that I could delegate many tasks to them as my team.

My SIL was also running around like a crazy person doing most of the decoration etc. with his mixed gender team of groom's people. My DD's mixed gender team of bride's people got off relatively easy, spending much of their time sequestered with the bride, getting their hair braided creatively with ribbons, etc. My DS31 and one of my DD's best friends are both very tall men with very long hair, so they were also beribboned and compelled to wear matching turtlenecks. Meanwhile, the young women who were groom's people were dressed in vests, and compelled to help my SIl haul around heavy ornamental arches and tables, and I heard one of them commenting on how the bride's team had a better gig.

The funniest moment of the weekend was due to the fact that, for better or worse, there is a line of bi-polar disease in both our family and the groom's. So, his Aunt who is symptomatic hyper-sexual, not knowing that she was talking about my sister's husband ( an introverted academic INTJ who happens to resemble Antonio Banderas) , commented aloud while drunk in her presence "Mmmm...just look at the curly hair on that one." I had also been warned that the groom's mother was a bit of a terror, but it turned out that IMO, she was just on mild end of Asperger's spectrum. For instance, she abruptly corrected my behavior on one occasion, but I know that is just how women on the Aspie spectrum try to be helpful, so I took it in that spirit.

Anyways, overall it was a super fun weekend, a truly lovely ceremony, and I received very sincere, thoughtful, Thank You notes from both my DD and SIL.

[IlliniDave]

In retrospect, I think we should have bent our rules or made exceptions. Weddings mean different things to different people.

This hints at something insightful that's maybe easiest to illustrate with a funeral. There's an aspect of these traditional life stage ceremonies that isn't fundamentally for the subjects. What good does a funeral do the deceased? It's really for those left behind to mark the change and process grief. Weddings are similar (I'd argue it's in part why traditionally the couples' parents/families pay for/host the ceremonies). As you noted, it's the formalization of connections between separate networks of people. I looked at my wedding as something I had to endure for the sake of my family, and my future (really, ex-future now I guess) family. I'm a little old fashioned when it comes to how I view importance of family, but like it or not weddings typically change the lives of more than just the bride and groom, and sometimes those people want a vote too. That can be tough to manage but it probably can't hurt to tread as lightly as your principles allow.

[Ego]

This hints at something insightful that's maybe easiest to illustrate with a funeral. There's an aspect of these traditional life stage ceremonies that isn't fundamentally for the subjects.

Very true. We've discussed ad nauseam how important it is to burn the ships when getting married and I believe the ceremony is a big part of making that statement to everyone.

As the culture rapidly changes traditions clash with the realities of the modern world.

Marriage was once something that happened to a couple. Especially women. The institution evolved in a world where marriages were arranged. The couple may not have chosen one another. For society to function couples had to be encouraged to find ways to stay together with a partner they may not have otherwise selected for themselves. Those closest to the couple literally had to buy into the coupling, ensuring they enforced it.

Today in the developed world - and in much of the developing world - those clinging to the traditional ways are swimming in the same fishbowl with those who reject many or all of its customs. Most aspects of the two are mutually exclusive.

When marriages were arranged, society had to provide external inducements to keep the couple together. The marriage ceremony wasn't for them. It was for everyone else.

Today a couple decides to be together. Society must provide internal inducements to keep them together. Today the ceremony is less a statement being made TO the couple and more a statement made BY the couple.

Today divorce is an option. Looking at my SIL and former BIL I got the impression that the marriage ceremony was less impactful on them because it was something that happened to them and consequently they did not figuratively buy into it the way we did because we planned it and literally bought into it.

But perhaps I am seeing what I want to see. I guess the proof is in the pudding.

[7Wannabe5]

@Ego:

I agree. Maybe the wedding should be consciously designed to match the mission statement of the marriage?

[1taskaday]

When my DH and I decided to get married we planned a typical big traditional wedding.A few weeks later when I realised I would be doing all the organising on my own...we eloped.
Kind of set the tone for the rest of our lives together since.
Never had a regret about it... although he says he has...poor dear.

[ZAFCorrection]

Thank you all for your advice. We had the wedding this summer with a good amount of compromise on all sides. I think it worked out pretty well both in how my wife and I felt about it and how it kept the peace within our family.