The Education of Axel Heyst

Where are you and where are you going?
AxelHeyst
Posts: 2158
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:55 pm
Contact:

Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by AxelHeyst »

I got the rona a few days ago and it pretty much knocked me out for 48 hours. On the mend now, still a little loopy.

I've been thinking about all this meaning of life, how to have a good life stuff. I also recently read the rise of superman, by Steven Kotler, which is about Flow. This quote from Maslow struck a chord with me:
Maslow wrote:"During a peak experience, the individual experiences an expansion of self, a sense of unity, and meaningfulness in life. The experience lingers in one's consiousness and gives a sense of purpose, integration, self-determination and empathy.
"The peak experience is felt as a self-validation, self-justifying moment... It is felt to be a highly valuable - even uniquely valuable. experience, so great an experience sometimes that even to attempt to justify it takes away from its dignity and worth. As a matter of fact, so many people find this so great and high an experience that it justifies not only itself, but even living itself. Peak experiences can make life worthwhile by their occasional occurrence. They give meaning to life itself. They prove it to be worthwhile. To say this in a negative way, I would guess that peak experiences help to prevent suicide."


I think here Maslow is talking about macroflow, the real big deep flow experiences which maybe few people have actually experienced. There's also the more common microflow which basically everyone is familiar with.

Also this line from Csikszentmihaly:
The happiest people on earth worked hard for their fulfillment. They didn't just have the most peak experiences, they had devoted their lives to having these experiences...
I think that for me, being a very future oriented person (able to delay gratification and grind out unpleasant tasks for future hypothetical rewards), the next phase of living a better life is a focus on flow/peak experience/intrinsic motivation which implies immediate gratification. There's an optimum balance that I'm still too far to one side on.

In some sense I feel like Edison. The story goes that he tried 1000 different materials for lightbulb filament, and people asked him if he wasn't bummed out about about failing so much, and he said nah I didn't fail, I discovered 1000 materials that don't work for lightbulb filaments. I feel like I've tried a lot of strategies for having a good/fun/meaningful life, and most of them didn't really work out the way I wanted them to. The reality of the things I try never match up with the visions I had in my head beforehand. (which suggests that the issue isn't the things I was doing, but the method of pursuing a better life. i.e. explicitly pursuing happiness is one surefire way of not attaining happiness).

Sometimes people encourage me to stop trying so hard, or to just do whatever I feel like without a plan. The trouble is, when I do that, I downspiral into melancholy pretty quick and just don't do anything. The only way I crawl out of those holes is by building plans and strategies and then making myself execute them whether I feel like it or not.

So I feel like I have to somehow figure out how to trick myself into doing things for their own sake.... like I need to build a strategy/plan that I can execute that will deliver me to a place of intrinsically motivated activity/flow. Maybe if I do this enough times I'll be able to get there more naturally and without the predetermination, but to kickstart it I have to use methods I already know will work.

It also seems relevant to my renaissance skills project. When you work on skills from a space of intrinsic motivation/flow, skill development is super rapid. Grinding it out is way slower. Obviously some grinding is necessary (? typically in beginning stages I assume?), but if steps can be taken to drop into flow more often, why not.

Activities that I've experienced flow/intrinsic motivation for:
.writing (writing is mostly not flow, but I find the not-flow periods of writing enjoyable enough to put in the time required for flow to show up sometimes. Beats hauling rocks.)
.3d work (there's some caveats to this, related to challenge/skill ratio and clear goals prereqs for flow )
.climbing (duh)
.mtb, but not as much as you'd think. I also experienced a lot of frustration and toil, with the flow highs being very rare. Might be because I never got in good enough shape or a good enough gearhead to eliminate some major sources of friction.
.making something out of wood/metal in the shop.
.working on and restoring machines. I haven't done this much, but I suspect that if I can get through the noob stage and get a decent space set up for it, I'd really enjoy e.g. doing maintenence and work on motorcycles and things like that.
.Reading/studying, particularly taking notes on something and making connections between other things. I suspect if I can become fluid at the skill of zettelkastening I'll richly enjoy the experience for it's own sake (I've gotten small hits, but I'm still groping in the dark a bit too much).
.Designing (for builds like Serenity, my tiny studio, plans for ft dirtbag, etc)

--

Part of this work is learning to be more brutally honest with myself about my strengths and weaknesses, and the things I enjoy (or could enjoy) and the things that I'm only ever at best going to be a 'meh' on. I feel like I have some kind of conditioning that if something is enjoyable, I shouldn't do it, or it's a waste of time. That the only things worth doing kinda suck. If I want to spend more of my life actually enjoying it, I've got to get over this conditioning, because it causes me to stick with things that suck long after I should have abandoned ship.

For example, I'm not really enjoying the way I've been traveling. So far, the upsides of workawaying aren't outweighing the downsides, for me. In the past, I'd have just gritted my teeth and kept at it because I had extrinsic reasons for doing it. Now, with a bit more self honesty, I'm okay saying right, time to try something else.

zbigi
Posts: 997
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:04 pm

Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by zbigi »

AxelHeyst wrote:
Sat Jun 04, 2022 4:26 am
I feel like I've tried a lot of strategies for having a good/fun/meaningful life, and most of them didn't really work out the way I wanted them to. The reality of the things I try never match up with the visions I had in my head beforehand. (which suggests that the issue isn't the things I was doing, but the method of pursuing a better life. i.e. explicitly pursuing happiness is one surefire way of not attaining happiness).
I'd say that the problem is probably our pathetically weak ability to actually create useful models that go far into the future and/or into modes of living hitherto unknown to us. I'd say that models created this way are mostly useless, as reality is just too complex and non-linear (a small factor can make entire prediction go haywire) to be modeled with our brains. [1] Models are maybe mostly useful for motivation - i.e. they give us hope that, after doing X, we'll attain Y. In practice, we almost never attain Y, but at least we've done X and are now wiser from the experience, while the alternative may have been doing nothing and getting depressed because of it.

[1] I've worked with a Polish developer guy who fantasised about moving to Texas (for "freedom") or Bulgaria (because cheap plus lots of sun). His models never accounted for giant unknowns that might make living there not better for him than living in Poland.

AxelHeyst
Posts: 2158
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:55 pm
Contact:

Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by AxelHeyst »

Yeah that sounds about right. It's an argument in favor of 'try a bunch of stuff quickly without much attachment to the outcomes' (that approach seems appropriate for just about everything where the cost of playing a round or two is low enough).

Also, another potential clue in the 'why do so many FIREes go back to work?' mystery. Spend long enough in a cage fantasizing about what the outside is like, it's probably tough to not wind up spending most of your dream time on one particular vision of how it's going to go. When you get there, and reality != Expectation, it's hugely crushing and confusing. Ennui sets in. Work starts to look not so bad. You think in binary of work and not work, not work as one option among a thousand, only two of which you've so far explored.

Ps how many fired people *do* wind up going back to work? Anyone have an idea? I suspect it's difficult to know. It's not like there are statistics kept on this. Have just a few prominent stories made us think it's more prevalent than it really is?

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9426
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

What are the downsides of workawaying?

User avatar
mountainFrugal
Posts: 1139
Joined: Fri May 07, 2021 2:26 pm

Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by mountainFrugal »

I have advocated a few times for the future narrative that details the day to day parts, including the seemingly boring and mundane details, likely down sides and how current mental hangups might re-manifest themselves after this major change. The developer moving to Texas for "freedom" only to find that the heat for most of the year is more oppressive than any perceived freedoms he does not currently have as an example. There might also be a tradeoff to trying things quickly as you might not ever get good enough to reap a consistent flow while doing the activity. Perhaps this is why known and relatively simple activities are commonly suggested.

UrbanHomesteader
Posts: 89
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 9:02 pm

Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by UrbanHomesteader »

I've been enjoying hearing about your work away experiences, because doing something similar has been a part of my daydreaming circuit as well. Would be interested to hear more

I'm also just n a stage this year of "taking a sabbatical" which is open ended. So far, I have been spending most of my energy on renovating a rental property to sell, and now I am working on my own house. I'm sorting through so many activities and asking myself if I actually enjoy what I am doing. So far, it is a mixed bag.

AxelHeyst
Posts: 2158
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:55 pm
Contact:

Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by AxelHeyst »

Most of the potential downsides of workaway are predictable and tolerable: lack of private space, host is disorganized, accomodations are rough, expectations aren't clear, there's mold growing in the bottom of the electric kettle (!!), etc. (These aren't always true, but they're not rare).

I think I might be in a unique position to create experiences I'm not having great fun with. Most workawayers are relatively low skilled at whatever the host is doing, or the tasks are just low skill required. This means the expectations on them are low, and whatever they're doing is novel to them.

I happen to be 'proficient ameteur' in a few things that the hosts I've applied to want done. For example this past week I've been doing the full off grid electrical system for their van conversion. The host knows I've already done this, so expects me to work quickly and without mistakes.

Trouble is, being a proficient amateur, I have opinions on the way in which things ought to be done, or even just particular ways I like to do things. The host doesn't share my views.

So I'm doing something I already know how to do, except I'm doing it in a way I dislike, and having to navigate the ego dynamics of the situation, and I've got a sort of burden of responsibility for a whole miniproject. Which makes me just want to leave.

Possibly my only error is in applying to workaways where my skills are a good fit. I should be finding workaways that don't overlap with my skills at all.

The trouble is finding eco rural permie ish projects that don't overlap with any of my skills. Possibly I need to just keep going... I might be near a breakthrough in my learning curve that once I figure it out it'll be smooth sailing.

On the other hand, workawaying for the purpose of skill development might just be a dumb idea, and I should switch to bikepacking or something.

Miss Lonelyhearts
Posts: 176
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:53 am

Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by Miss Lonelyhearts »

AxelHeyst wrote:
Sat Jun 04, 2022 4:26 am
The trouble is, when I do that, I downspiral into melancholy pretty quick and just don't do anything.
Your answer is on the other side of this door.
AxelHeyst wrote:
Sat Jun 04, 2022 4:26 am
The only way I crawl out of those holes is by building plans and strategies and then making myself execute them whether I feel like it or not.
*have crawled

zbigi
Posts: 997
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:04 pm

Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by zbigi »

Miss Lonelyhearts wrote:
Sat Jun 04, 2022 11:56 am
Your answer is on the other side of this door.
Are you saying that the answer is to succumb to melancholy and see where it leads to?

AxelHeyst
Posts: 2158
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:55 pm
Contact:

Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by AxelHeyst »

Touche, Miss Lonelyhearts.

recal
Posts: 80
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2021 12:29 pm

Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by recal »

Axel, not sure if this counts as doxxing as I couldn't find any mention of it, but I'm 99% sure I'm subscribed to your blog and podcast. Reading it a few months ago is what got me to take the plunge and join this community again, years after initially reading ERE. Our lives are nothing alike, but you spent a lot of rent in the city where I am choosing to stay and lead a very opposite life to yours. :)

User avatar
Ego
Posts: 6390
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:42 am

Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by Ego »

AxelHeyst wrote:
Sat Jun 04, 2022 4:26 am
Sometimes people encourage me to stop trying so hard, or to just do whatever I feel like without a plan. The trouble is, when I do that, I downspiral into melancholy pretty quick and just don't do anything. The only way I crawl out of those holes is by building plans and strategies and then making myself execute them whether I feel like it or not.
If the goal is skill/experience acquisition, maybe you can decide on a skill/experience you want and then find a way to get it.

For instance, you seem to be interested in sailing. Maybe you can walk the marinas and boat yards telling those you meet that you are an American backpacker looking to do general day labor boat repair for cash and/or a berth. Worst case, you waste a few days around a marina talking to people. If you get a gig you can use the cash to buy a hostel bed and think of it as bartering labor for skills and experiences.

My point is, decide on the type of serendipity you would like to experience and then put yourself in the place where that kind of serendipity is likely to happen.

AxelHeyst
Posts: 2158
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:55 pm
Contact:

Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by AxelHeyst »

Recal - it's not doxxing, I'm 'out' here. :D I'm really glad you're here, been following your journal with interest.

Ego - thanks for the wisdom to chew on, as usual.

OutOfTheBlue
Posts: 297
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2022 9:59 am

Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by OutOfTheBlue »

Your journal, blog entries and forum presence have been a huge inspiration so far. Thank you for doing this.

Since early 2020, you've been really killing it with your ERE journey. Maybe you were primed for it, but the speed and breadth of the changes as evidenced by this journal and various other contributions, has been impressive.

All the more as you've been doing so the hard way, while frequently changing locations, living arrangements and plans ("no home base, no roots, no stability" in your own words), then embarking straight in your current travels, with virtually no stability break in between.

Since then, there has been the upheaval of the separation, which, while removing some of the friction you had to manage in the past, has also altered the year-long travel dynamics, making it a more personal experience, and kickstarting a new phase of inner work.

I wonder how your current situation is aligned with your needs. For instance, do you have enough tranquility and time/space on your own for your inner work?

Travel, even "slow", adds some overhead (in logistics, time and energy, adaptation) that can be counterproductive at some level, even for a hardened wanderer like you.

Keeping a certain routine, focussing on mindfulness and being grounded/present in the moment can help balance out your future oriented side and make any activity feel more meaningful. Teachings from your current experience will become more apparent later. Not everyting is immediately visible.

There is time for change, and there is time for consolidation. Trying to put myself in your shoes, I think I'd be craving for a metaphorical safe harbor, like the one that you had during our recovery/healing period from full time work/burnout. I hear a need for more self-care. Don't push past without listening to yourself. What do you need right now? Starting from where you are, how can you create more favorable conditions?

---

On a side note, I will be back to Greece from end of June to end of September. If you do come during this period, be sure to drop me a line. I would be happy to meet and/or share any info.

I've taken up many readings you (and others) have shared, with more in the pipeline. For instance, thanks for Katy Bowman and Ultralearning (which I remember also discusses the difference between flow and deliberate practice, maybe a point to reread?). Re skills, I am currently reading "The first 20 hours" book, which seems to complement Scott Young's book nicely. May I share an ebook version by PM?

Albert Camus's "The Myth of Sisyphus" has been an important influence for me as well, helping me put words (ultimately, in the form of a poem) to a late teen years experience that got me firmly past suicide. Maybe peak experiences help prevent it, as Maslow suggests, but it is worth remembering that the absurd is not what leads to it.
Last edited by OutOfTheBlue on Mon Jun 06, 2022 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

AxelHeyst
Posts: 2158
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:55 pm
Contact:

Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by AxelHeyst »

OutOfTheBlue wrote:
Sat Jun 04, 2022 7:38 pm
I wonder how your current situation is aligned with your needs. For instance, do you have enough tranquility and time/space on your own for your inner work?

... What do you need right now? Starting from where you are, how can you create more favorable conditions?
Insightful observations and questions OOTB, thank you. (And yes, I'd love to check that ebook out, thank you. Also, fyi to anyone, if you go to the landing page on my website and scroll to the bottom, that's the easiest/fastest way to start an email conversation. Sometimes I don't check pm's here for a while if I'm just lurking around). If I'm anywhere near Greece before the end of September I will definitely hit you up.

The expectable social stresses of workawaying just might be not a good fit for me right now. Over the past fews days as I've been laid up my vision has shifted from bikepacking the uk to taking the next two weeks here in France to get kitted up, then catch a bus to Bosnia or thereabouts. From there it's a Shengen-free and wild-camping-tolerated path all the way through Turkey, Georgia, and potentially Central Asia.

I grew up within sight of the PCT (hiking trail from mexico to canada), and I always thought doing something like that would be terribly boring and monotonous. That I'd get too antsy to do something/accomplish something and be aggravated while on trail. I'm not sure why, but something along those lines feels very attractive now. A long bikepack might be the favorable conditions you mentioned.

AxelHeyst
Posts: 2158
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:55 pm
Contact:

Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by AxelHeyst »

I'm also remembering thanks to outoftheblue's timeline that when I bodged together the concept for this trip, I didn't know what I'd be coming back to the States to do when I finished traveling. Because of my partner there was a lot of uncertainty (as usual) as to whether we'd go back to Michigan, or somewhere else, what we'd be doing there, etc. Post separation, my mind is absolutely clear: when I get back, I'm going to Ft Dirtbag and I'm going to work on it. There is little novelty or excitement working on other people's projects because I've already got a very clear idea of what I want to do when I get back, and it's just sitting there waiting for me.

In fact, a danger with continuing to workaway as I travel is that I get just sick of working on projects in general and am burnt out by the time I get back to my own. Yeah, all right, forget this. Time to switch it up.

recal
Posts: 80
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2021 12:29 pm

Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by recal »

I've skimmed through just the first few and the last few pages of this so apologies if I missed this -- what do you find satisfying about travel? Apart from the disorganization of workawaying, is your overland travel satisfying you? And do you know what your ideal travel situation is (taking money out of the picture)?

AxelHeyst
Posts: 2158
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:55 pm
Contact:

Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by AxelHeyst »

recal wrote:
Sun Jun 05, 2022 10:51 am
I've skimmed through just the first few and the last few pages of this so apologies if I missed this -- what do you find satisfying about travel? Apart from the disorganization of workawaying, is your overland travel satisfying you? And do you know what your ideal travel situation is (taking money out of the picture)?
I think the first question is referring more to my perma-wandering ways, not specifically my current travels? Answer is - I don't find it satisfying. I just have found it less intolerable than being in one place. So far.

My current overland travel is not satisfying me (although I'm glad I'm doing it... y'know?), but that's sort of a meaningless answer because I'm not sure I've ever really experienced satisfaction at the scale we're talking about here. But some of the comments in this thread have maybe given me some clues as to why and what to do about it...

Ideal travel situation: it involves a corellian yt-1300 light freighter...

Actually it honestly might be dual sport motorcycle overlanding. I've only done a little bit (2-3,000miles), but I really enjoyed it. That said, I haven't exhausted all the different ways one can travel, so maybe there's something else out there for me.

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 15980
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 77
Contact:

Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by jacob »

AxelHeyst wrote:
Sat Jun 04, 2022 11:41 am
So I'm doing something I already know how to do, except I'm doing it in a way I dislike, and having to navigate the ego dynamics of the situation, and I've got a sort of burden of responsibility for a whole miniproject. Which makes me just want to leave.
Isn't this the very definition of "professionalism"? Responsibility without authority.

Another pickle to include with responsibility and authority is capability. These three factors must be carefully balanced.

zbigi
Posts: 997
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:04 pm

Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by zbigi »

jacob wrote:
Mon Jun 06, 2022 6:51 am
Isn't this the very definition of "professionalism"? Responsibility without authority.
Not to my experience. In my whole career, I was practically never given much authority, but I was also never really held responsible for anything. I feel like the expectations of responsibility stopped at the level of my bosses, whose job was to utilize me and my peers wisely, and who were definitely held accountable by their higher-ups. In result, my SE jobs felt like being in a kindergarden. Me and my colleagues even jokingly called our managers kindergarden teachers.

Post Reply