Axel Heyst's Journal

Where are you and where are you going?
Jin+Guice
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Re: Axel Heyst's Journal

Post by Jin+Guice »

If ERE is decoupling yourself from the fragile system of economics through hyper-specialization we've constructed, I posit that at a high enough Wheaton level (9?) it would necessarily include other people. The reason? No matter how many skills you have it's not possible to do everything yourself. As @bigtao said "you need other people to do stuff for you." These need not be an intentional community, in fact, I think it would almost definitely not be.

Personally, I don't think it's desirable (even if we controlled the world) to do away with money as a medium of trade. So completely eliminating acquisition through financial capital is unnecessary (though experimenting with this may be necessary to progress through Wheaton 8). But, acquisition through financial trade is less resilient than acquiring things from others within your local community who one has a social bond with. Being able to rely on community members and financial capital (your own and your communities) increases redundancy, which increases resilience. I think this is what @c_L was saying, more or less.

It's very difficult to construct a community where people do things for each other without money, balancing their own individual needs with the community (this may just be because I'm a Westerner, but I don't think sacrificing yourself or your own goals completely for "the good of the community" is a healthy thing). Maybe it's impossible? It would require a certain underlying social structure. Historically these need to develop organically and without a utopian vision. You want Thanksgiving* dinner not Stalin's Russia. No one said Wheaton 9 was going to be easy.

*If you're thinking, "I don't want my family's Thanksgiving dinner," then maybe a Friendsgiving or whatever holiday dinner not America traditionally uses to celebrate slaughtering their lands native people.

We've speculated what higher Wheaton levels might look like before. Respecting the Wheaton structure, I'm not high enough up to understand 9 thinking at all, so I can't see it without a "map." IIRC, it's very difficult to see 2-levels up without a map. I still think it's interesting and useful to speculate though.

classical_Liberal
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Re: Axel Heyst's Journal

Post by classical_Liberal »

Jin+Guice wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:01 pm
I think this is what @c_L was saying, more or less.
Redundancy AND improved efficiency. If I have leftover food from a feast (waste) and am able to turn it into two "OK" meals for myself, great no waste. What if I give that food to someone like @seppia and he happily adds a bit of rice or pasta and turns it into four 5-star restaurant meals. We both get 2 great meals with very little resource additions. We can both cook, @seppia can cook better(humans have different levels of inherent skill and activity preferences as you point out), hence his system is best setup to use the waste from my own in this circumstance. Value added interdependence.

WL 4-5 Modifies individual nodes in their system to improve outcome in that node
(pre system thinking?)
WL 6-7 Modifies lever points in system with intention of improving at system level
(Closed system thinking?)
WL8+ Modifies lever points in multisystem interactions to improve multiple individual systems
(Open system thinking?)

jacob
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Re: Axel Heyst's Journal

Post by jacob »

@cL - I consider these yields and flows going between oneself and other people to be W6-W7. For example, Henry Ford paying his employees a higher wage so they can afford to buy the cars they make, that is, designing for social capital is part of the intentional systems design in W7.

Social capital is not a private (excludable rival) good that transacts in a way that one loses it in exchange for other [kind of capital] or a good that can only be used by the person having it. Social capital is more like an excludable non-rivalrous good that anyone who is part of the system will gain from, like being part of the club or a community. That would be part of W7: integrating social capital in the systems design.

Social capital in W6 would be a simpler form more akin to public good (non-rivalrous, non-excludable) such as borrowing free books from the library; volunteering to clean up park trails as a way to get exercise or meet people; or the minimalist who always needs to borrow your stuff, The flows are recognized but they're not integrated. These W6 social flows do not become social capital.

"Chop wood, carry water" is key to W8. The system design is beginning to integrate all aspects including common resources (rivalrous and non-exludeable) which include the other people. I think this necessitates a lot of W7's to build deliberately. This would be an intentional community that actually does live in harmony with nature and all the other capitals. The original hunter gatherer tribe would be an example. Because of that requires, we probably never hear of true W8s (true Scotsman fallacy?). Basically, the web of goals includes ALL the kinds of capitals, not just ones "you" (the individual) wanted for your personal web of goals in W7. In W8, the ultimate system is the default state---not something one is working towards like in W7.

PS: W8 is better termed Winfinite ... I haven't identified multiple discrete stages between W7 and W8.

AxelHeyst
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Re: Axel Heyst's Journal

Post by AxelHeyst »

TIL I learned a new word: Hypersanity. The concept seems relevant. Here's a short but intriguing article:
https://getpocket.com/explore/item/the- ... ket-newtab

--//--

My thinking about ERE continues to evolve aggressively.

FIRE is presented as the carrot, the bait, to the ERE lifestyle. And, the whole system is presented not as directions but as a map and navigational skills. Here is the swamp of consumerism. Over there is the candy city of entrepreneurship. Through this pass lies the verdant valley of the Renaissance Ideal. Go where thou wilt. etc.

The more I spend time with the material and this community, and the more I reflect upon my relationship with work, the less enticing the well-trod path of traditional FIRE-through-investments becomes. I dislike the idea of working in my current situation for the four to five years it would take me to get to FIRE at 3% at around 1 jafi. I also dislike the idea of investing. We don't even have to get in to the topic of the ethics of an anti-capitalist investing in the stock market; the idea of investing the time in gaining investing skill is a turn-off for some reason. I respect the idea that in order to do well in the stock market you must invest in your skill in the stock market, and that process is viscerally unappealing to me right now. I have several financial and investing books, and when I pick them up I just put them right back down. Instead of fighting that dynamic right now, I'm choosing to just accept it for the time being. I'd be a pretty crappy investor if I hated every second of it.

This might be in part due to my burnout, my lack of desire to spend one single non-critical second of my short life staring at a computer, the perceived door to stress it opens. But let's set aside the discussion for a moment and just accept that, for now, my emotional and psychological willingness to deal with diving in to the world of investing is extremely low. On top of that, I am concerned that if I 'oversave' or otherwise trad-FIRE, I'll lose motivation to work on the projects I want to. I don't know how overblown that concern is (and I don't know how I would know, without actually doing it).

I am highly motivated to work, and build skills. There are a million projects I want to work on, all at least somewhat loosely based around a common theme that is in alignment with my vision for my life, and many of which I see a reasonable chance at remuneration. Also many of my projects will (if successful) result in eliminating line items from my expenditures. And, I'm targeting <1 jafi CoL.

I suspect that, once I get up and running (let's say 1-3 years), income from my projects will be bringing in >1 jafi, and I'll actually be enjoying my life, and my stress levels will be dramatically lower. It is entirely reasonable to suspect that somewhere in there, motivation for learning investment skills will flourish, and I can get in to that.

Because this is what I do, here's a graph to illustrate what I'm talking about. To make it read, the blue line representing my savings account is /10. So my savings peaks at $90,000, not $9k.
Image

What this is assuming:
  • I save like a madman for a year.
  • I keep my expenses to 1 jafi forever (I actually assume I'll be able to spend less than 1 jafi, so this is conservative).
  • I quit my job in April 2021.
  • I don't earn a single cent for 2 full years.
  • Then, I take a year and a half to slowly be generating more income, until I'm making $1k/mo.
  • I don't invest anything, I don't make any investment income. (I also suspect that at some point after quitting, I'll gain an ability to invest time in investing).
  • I'm ignoring inflation in this, obviously.
  • It also assumes that the pay cut we all just got lasts through next year. I could be wrong either way about that - the percentage might increase, or the whole company could implode and I'm out a job.
All this graph is showing that if my assumptions hold true, my savings don't ever dip below 70k. That leaves me with a sizeable enough 'emergency' fund, and it gives me ample time to figure out how to balance my inputs and yields. The size of the stash doesn't matter if you make even slightly more than you spend.

It also has me convinced that if I lose my job sometime this year, I'm not going to scramble for a new one. I'll probably feel more hustle to get working on remunerable skills and be aiming for sooner than 2 years, but this graph gives me some confidence that I'll be able to just skim through a couple year recession.

Why assume no income for 2 years? Well, I figure it's going to take some time to de-scramble my brain and nervous system from 12 years of high stress sedentary work. And maybe I screw around for a while playing with different projects before I hit on some activities that I'm actually stoked to be doing and manage to make money on. And maybe this recessions lasts a while. And it's just conservative. So, I'm guessing it won't take that long. But I like knowing that it'd be fine if it does take that long.

Also, there are various approaches to income. This graph is assuming a very stable monthly income, which is unrealistic. Let's just say that's a yearly average income assumption. There's also a world where after taking a year off, I get interested in investing and go back to some form of high-paid work for a period of time (a year?) to build up a stash of money to invest, and then go back to semiERE/whateverthefuck and manage my money, skills, and adventure time however I see fit.

Thoughts? Criticism? Am I nuts? Is there some major financial/economic dynamic I'm not considering?

classical_Liberal
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Re: Axel Heyst's Journal

Post by classical_Liberal »

You should do whatever best fits into the life you want to life. Saving 7 or so years of living expenses, then choosing to try and create enough cashflow to continue seems like a perfectly reasonable plan.

You will likely be your worst enemy in this process. My original plan was to save up 100K for "old age retirement", invest it and earn 3% average per year and have enough in 25-30 years. Simply earn what I need in the meantime. Now I'm FI at more than 1JAFI, and am still working. What happened? I was my own worst enemy. I second guess everything, I'm lazy and want the easy cashflow high income provides, I want to keep my options open, etc.. so I think the real key is to save money, while simultaneously trying to make a life you love. If the way you are making money makes you not enjoy life, or creates some cognitive dissonance with the life you want to lead, it's time to reconsider. Setting monetary goals alone rarely creates the "line in the sand" you think it will.

Edit: The more I think about this, the more I think I should point out that "playing mental tricks" on yourself can work to avoid some of these hang-ups. For example, when I went back to work this time I'm simply letting my net pay accumulate in my checking account and not including it in my net worth numbers. why? because, when I spend it down it doesn't really mean much to me. Your particular hang-ups might not be with money, but I encourage these mental tricks to get yourself to do things that you know, deep down, you should do, but keep finding some reason not to. :lol: if that last sentence makes any sense.

mooretrees
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Re: Axel Heyst's Journal

Post by mooretrees »

I think this is fantastic. It mirrors the approach recommended by the Escape Everything author Robert Wingham. He suggests savings much less before launching but he does support having a part time job.

I can't recall your expenses if they are at one JAFI or now that you're in Serenity they should be? I think I've read Jacob say that when he quit he had many years of spending less than $7000 so he had a really solid set of habits and skills. That's the one area that I think is essential: a trust in your expenses remaining low due to a lot of time that one has maintained low expenses. I certainly need that for when I either quit or go to part time. I've read enough journals to sorta cringe at peoples expectations that they will spend less when they retire in a sorta handwaving way. I think hard data is key. Now, maybe that is my weak area so that's why I'm stressing it to you?

Also, since you're a recovering workaholic, how will you handle not working? What are your strategies to schedule your time and how will you actively decompress? That's another area I read about people struggling, is time management when they're finally retired.

I'm really excited to read more!

AxelHeyst
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Re: Axel Heyst's Journal

Post by AxelHeyst »

classical_Liberal wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:08 am
So I think the real key is to save money, while simultaneously trying to make a life you love. If the way you are making money makes you not enjoy life, or creates some cognitive dissonance with the life you want to lead, it's time to reconsider. Setting monetary goals alone rarely creates the "line in the sand" you think it will.
I feel like I'm very solidly in the "the way I'm making money makes me not enjoy life" camp, due to the stress and due to the mono-specialization of my position. I do feel like what I dream about is what I'm going to be doing once I have enough money to not have to work (/make as much), I don't dream of having enough money to not have to work (/make as much). (I feel like I may have misunderstood your point.)

And I'm a BIG fan of playing mental tricks on myself. I think I have two selves: a smart weak self and a dumb strong self. The weak self has to outsmart the dumb self to get him to do what the smart self wants to get done. Small (and yet not) example, my strong dumb self wants to watch youtube until 3am. My weak smart self isn't strong enough to overpower the dumb self at 11pm, but he is *smart* enough to download freedom.to and make youtube.com not work across all my devices between the hours of 10pm and 5am. I'll have to think about how to approach this strategy wrt semi-ERE.

AxelHeyst
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Re: Axel Heyst's Journal

Post by AxelHeyst »

mooretrees wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:57 am
I can't recall your expenses if they are at one JAFI or now that you're in Serenity they should be? I think I've read Jacob say that when he quit he had many years of spending less than $7000 so he had a really solid set of habits and skills. That's the one area that I think is essential: a trust in your expenses remaining low due to a lot of time that one has maintained low expenses.
I totally agree with this. I wrote down today, after reading your comment, "Requirements to quit job: 1) 6 consistent months of <=1 jafi expenses. 2) [some other off-topic things...]

I just crunched my numbers for March. Here are my YTD expenses. Remember that I got in to ERE in mid January.

Image

A few expenses from March that were higher than I'd like were due to DW taking a short road trip, utilities for the apartment we vacated last month, and beginning to build our 3 month stash of food. Also keep in mind this includes all of DWs living expenses. So while I don't have a history of 1 jafi expenses, the direction of my trend is good and I anticipate hitting my 6 months of 1 jafi spending in, well, 6 months or so.
mooretrees wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:57 am
Also, since you're a recovering workaholic, how will you handle not working? What are your strategies to schedule your time and how will you actively decompress? That's another area I read about people struggling, is time management when they're finally retired.
Well, my list of post-work projects is rather long. :D I'll get it all together and make a big post at some point, but the sketch of my current thinking is this:
1. Quit job
2. Take 1-2 weeks to handle immediate post-work logistics (health care? taxes? stuff? sending equipment back in?)
3. Take 1-3 months completely off of screens, computers, digital technology, email, internet, etc. I'm going to ditch my smart phone, and maybe just carry a pre-paid nokia for emergencies. Potential activities for this period include: a long motorcycle trip, a long hike, reading, yoga, meditation, slow travel, hitchiking, traditional art (meaning, not digital) a long bicycle trip, a long climbing trip - basically just dirtbagging around.
4. Come back to home base and start buildin' stuff, working through all the projects I have in mind.

Vaikeasti
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Re: Axel Heyst's Journal

Post by Vaikeasti »

I'd like to read you expand your answer on mooretrees guestion; how are you planning to avoid workaholism after retirement.
You described what you are planning to do and that you have a lot of goals for your future. What are the safety measures you make to quarantee that these projects won't consume you like a career once did?

Hypersanity reminds me of the color codes of awareness.

RoamingFrancis
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Re: Axel Heyst's Journal

Post by RoamingFrancis »

A bit late, but @Gin+Juice I don't think the point of community is to sacrifice yourself for the "good of the community." I recently listened to a Sharon Salzberg talk about compassion. One of the interesting points she mentioned is that in the West we tend to think of compassion as compassion for other people at our expense, while in Sanskrit and Tibetan the word for compassion includes self-compassion. I don't think prioritizing community and having healthy boundaries are mutually exclusive.

@AxelHeyst, I don't want to tell you what to do, but it sounds like your job makes you miserable. I think your plan to get out quickly is a good one.

classical_Liberal
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Re: Axel Heyst's Journal

Post by classical_Liberal »

AxelHeyst wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 5:38 pm
I feel like I may have misunderstood your point
I feel like maybe I dont have a good point. :lol:

What I really mean is that your decisions are going to be made in a multidimensional construct. It's not as simple as; lots of money means lots of time spent working at a job I dislike, and making little money doing something I do like for only the amount of time I want to do it. You have to consider everything, and that's where it gets very easy to begin to second guess yourself. If you are like me, and tend to analyze everything, the web of goals construct becomes a bit anxiety producing in and of itself.

The cash buffer provides a bit of relief in the sense it gives you time to figure out how to structure everything, with some trial and error.

Still though, things continue to flow through my mind. Like, there is always the concern that income flow "X" is fun at first, but then begins to suck. Now I'm doing something that sucks for 1/20th the pay I used to get doing something that sucks. So, maybe, it's better to try doing that thing before I turn off the current income flow. However, then I think, well I just don't like doing income flow "X" because i'm so tired from working the other thing I hate, so let's take a break from that and see what happens... Or lets try doing a little of each, etc...etc. This is what I mean by potentially being your own worst enemy. All of can lead to analysis paralysis.

This is why I think the best starting point isn't some money based line in the sand. Rather, it's build a life you love and that is consistent with personal ethics. Then figure out how to support it in a reasonably resilient manner via semi-ERE. If the life you love doesn't have means to maintain cashflow for 1JAFI or your personal "head tax", then maybe semi-ERE isn't really an option for you, maybe you need FI before you can embark. At least you know.

horsewoman
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Re: Axel Heyst's Journal

Post by horsewoman »

@c_l you make excellent points, and so does @moretrees in regards to recovering workaholics.
However, the thing is, you cannot suss out most of this things mentally before living through them. I guess that is what you mean with "line in the sand"?
To get an analysis you need data, and at the point where @AH now stands, most of it is speculation. He has given low expenses a try so he knows how that works for him and his wife.
As someone who is a little less prone to overanalyzing everything than th typical ERE forumite, I heartily approve of @AH's plan of trying this out for 2 years to collect data. With the caveat that in my case it happened exactly as @moretrees warned - I burned myself out when my various "fun projects" turned into money making endeavors, and my innate workaholic tendencies kicked in.

I see this very clearly with sewing face masks - I used to own a sewing business until I could no longer stand it - everyone is urging me to sell masks, there is so much money be made, yadda yadda. I'm tempted, but I know it would take over my life again, so I wont. I imagine this is a mild form of how an recovering alcoholic must feel.

classical_Liberal
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Re: Axel Heyst's Journal

Post by classical_Liberal »

@horsewoman
That's a great example. Your situation is such that you don't have to do something because your semi-ERE is funded and robust. Life is set up the way you enjoy it. Now, if you were in a situation where you couldn't make your "headtax", opportunities like this come along and you almost feel obligated to take them. Even if sewing facemasks for a year is better than some other job, that doesn't mean it's what you really should do with your time.

Making decisions like that is what becomes very, very hard in semi-ERE. I think because we semi-ERE'ers are not FI, by definition. This is exacerbated when we are workaholic savers by nature. If serendipity offers a money making opportunity, when the rest of the world is suffering economically, and you are able to turn it down because you know it would not fit well into your web of goals, then you're in a great spot. If it were me, in my current situation without nursing job, I would probably have done it, because... money. Then regretted it later as the whole thing became a chore.

There is a critical balance between enough and not too much. Too much means turning down things that do fit into web of goals because you can afford to (ie wealth effect?) This balance is also heavily weighted by the resiliency in means of producing the enough.

mooretrees
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Re: Axel Heyst's Journal

Post by mooretrees »

What do your expenses look like if you don't include DW's share? Is she on board with paying her own way in the near future? Seems weird to ask it, but she needs to agree to this as you've been supporting her until now. I support DH and our son and we've combined expenses since we were married. Since you've combined expenses and now you're looking to decouple, what's your game plan about that?

I believe wholeheartedly that you can get your expenses very low, you've got Serenity, DW will be supporting herself and you're highly motivated.

I'm going to expand on @classical_liberal's point. I'm coming around to the realization that the web of goals/actions is (for me) central to ERE. I'm not living this so I can't throw down concrete examples. But, what I think happens if you design a life fully in alignment with your values (caring for the earth, loving kindness to others, etc) then that life will naturally be very frugal. But the money part is sorta just a measuring tool or a last thought, it's not the purpose. I think I've read Jacob say that FI is a by-product of ERE and I can imagine that more easily now. Alright, I've thought of an example. I've been biking to the store with my son in a bike trailer for groceries. It's five miles round trip. I love biking, my son loves being in trailer, we have a fun time shopping for groceries together and then he naps on the way home. Why would I drive to the store now that I have such a fun afternoon planned with my son? Choosing the fun and incredibly cheap way of travel is easy. Now, I do still drive to the store as I'm not perfect and I work full time and am tired or don't plan well, ect. But, if I can be smarter and keep choosing the fun and cheap travel method than my expenses will reflect that change.

I think you understand this, and I might be preaching to the choir. So sorry if this isn't necessary!

I also believe that it's hard sometimes to really have the energy to work on creating that life while working full time. But, you aren't starting from scratch with passions or your values so you've done a lot of work already. So, even if you don't have this all worked out before you semi-ERE you are putting yourself in the position to figure it out. That's a fantastic place to be.

bigato
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Re: Axel Heyst's Journal

Post by bigato »

Ignoring the effect of inflation in your planning specially at this point in history may came back to bite your ass big time. Make sure you know how you will react and what you will do if we have major unprecedented inflation, like 50% in one year or 80% in two. If something like that happens you need a contingency plan, or you need to know at least enough about investments that you’ll be able to keep up with inflation instead of being wiped out. Learning about it the moment it happens is the worst strategy here.

If you don’t like studying about investing, I suggest you start with reading news about the global economy, or watching high level videos about investing, or history of economy, stuff easier to digest like that. Hell even movies about investing if it helps to spark your curiosity.

AxelHeyst
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Re: Axel Heyst's Journal

Post by AxelHeyst »

Thanks bigato, I will look in to various inflation scenarios. Also, I'd never thought about soft-ball approaching investing intelligence in the way you said. Brilliant, that might be the way in for me. I think part of the problem is it feels very inaccessible, because I don't have any background at all in any of the jargon or way of thinking, so what I dislike isn't economics, it's the feeling of repeatedly running in to a brick wall. I need to find a ladder or something.

--

As for the responses from c_L, RF, horsewoman, and mooretrees. You triggered a fit of journaling and introspection which really helped me get more precise about my past, present, and future.

The first thing is clarity about what my problem statement is.

The problem is not that I'm a workaholic, become consumed by my work, or hate my job. I think I've cured my workaholism, I have a healthy perspective on productive projects and chill time, and find the majority of my job tasks to be enjoyable in theory.

The problem is that I'm depleted, burnt out, running on life-energy fumes, defeated, and disillusioned, due to a *past* history of workaholism and suffocating relationships, and I can't (/haven't yet figured out how to) replenish myself while maintaining my current position. Two weeks in Indonesia ain't gonna cut it (tried it).

If I'm right about this, that means that the immediate solution is to a) escape the job and then b) figure out what to do with my life, in that order. The order is critical, because I've been trying to figure it out while working my job, and I've totally failed. I feel like I'm drowning, sputtering saltwater, and the only thing that really matters is to heave myself on to the boat/dock/shore, and throw up the water in my lungs, and take a damn minute to reflect on how nice it is to not be actually drowning. And then I can get up, and maybe see if there's a beach cabana somewhere nearby I can get a beer and fish tacos at. Er, I mean, sort my life out.

The past few years of my life feels like I've been trying to think my way out of my problem while actually drowning due to being so exhausted I can't tread water anymore. "Hmm, okay, here's another angle, perhaps if I end this relationship and then build a cargo trailer, that will fix issue 4.2.f, which cross-solves for--glug glug glub". Shut the fuck up and get out of the water, dumbass!

[The most worrisome aspect of this is that it's been hurting less as the years go by and I just normalize to it. I think I'm approaching a point of no return.]

Due to my burnout, my plan needs to require as little life-energy as possible, because I have so little left to give. Hence: save a ~10 year buffer as quickly as possible > quit the job within a year > recover life-energy > build out a sustainable lifestyle that I love.

At this point, I recognize that the life I build, post-recovery, could be any number of things. Perhaps I freelance my current specialty for 1-2 months a year. Perhaps people pay me to build weird solar/dirtbag stuff for them. Perhaps, having recovered my life-energy, I realize that my job was actually pretty good, and I go back to it for some amount of time and go full FI. While I have a vision for my future life, I don't think I'm gripping it too tightly.

I think that "making an income" will be an intrinsic component of "living a life I love", or at least an unavoidable outcome. This goes back to Jacob's graph in the book of life skills, with the dashed line where below the line, it costs money, and above the line people will pay you for it. I'm very sure that the life I love involves getting really good at a number of things, to the point where people will pay me for them. In other words, let's say I want to build solar stuff, vanlife stuff, learn motorcycle repair, write, and make digital art. Every single one of those things (except writing maybe), I want to be at least an 8 in terms of mastery. And let's say "people will pay you for it" happens at a 5.

I do struggle with the difference between hand-wavey "eh, I'll figure it out" plans, and Jacob's point that serendipity is an inherent part of the Renaissance lifestyle. My *plan* is that interesting yet unpredictable income-generating opportunities will arise from the churn of my post-specialist lifestyle.

Because I think that the generation of income will naturally arise from my ideal lifestyle, I don't think that I need to hit FI before quitting my job. I just need enough of a buffer, enough slack in my system, to handle the process of life-energy recovery and then the time and effort it will take to get enough of those skills to the point where people will start paying me for them. It's not like my ideal life is X, which doesn't produce any income, and I need to then also do Y, which does.

All that said, I don't know how this is going to pan out. I've only ever known a stable, decent salary (albeit in VHCOL area) where I never had to worry that much. Being in a loosely coupled income situation might trigger a relapse in my workaholism. I don't know.

I can go back and work a high-income job and hit FI if I'm wrong (unless the economy gets totally nuked). I can't go back and quit earlier and have those years of 'the life I love' in my 30's back if I stick it out.


Regarding DW:
If I remove DW's expenses from March, I'm at 0.9 jafi. Next month I'm forecasting being at 1.2 jafi with DW's expenses, 0.7 without her.

DW is extremely supportive of ERE in general, and me quitting in particular. She has actually offered, several times, to go back to work [nannying] so I can quit immediately. With the shutdowns she can't really do that at the moment, but we have discussed in the future she might take some time out of the year to do high-value nanny work, make enough to cover her ERE-level expenses for the year, and then do whatever she wants. I'm currently supporting her so she can focus on her art business. The economic implosion has put that in to question, and she can't nanny during the shutdown. So for the time being, I'm supporting her to the tune of $250/mo plus food. As the economy starts to recover, we'll be working together to sort out a lifestyle where she covers her own base expenses.

RoamingFrancis
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:43 am

Re: Axel Heyst's Journal

Post by RoamingFrancis »

Sounds like your heart has decided and your thinking mind is trying to sort out the details. Good luck on your path.

If I could suggest a post-quitting project, maybe try doing a Vipassana retreat. It is extremely emotionally demanding, but they are free and have helped me a TON in terms of emotional intelligence. Just a suggestion, they are very difficult and I wouldn't necessarily recommend them to everyone.

Peace and good luck. Keep us updated :)

classical_Liberal
Posts: 1356
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2016 6:05 am

Re: Axel Heyst's Journal

Post by classical_Liberal »

Feel free to tell me to leave you alone at any point. But your comments about about your situation make me feel as if we have literally run parallel paths, at least emotionally, in many ways. Plus the social lockdown has given me more time to keep up on journals around here.
AxelHeyst wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 6:49 pm
As for the responses from c_L, RF, horsewoman, and mooretrees. You triggered a fit of journalingThe problem is that I'm depleted, burnt out, running on life-energy fumes, defeated, and disillusioned, due to a *past* history of workaholism and suffocating relationships, and I can't (/haven't yet figured out how to) replenish myself while maintaining my current position. Two weeks in Indonesia ain't gonna cut it (tried it).
This is a very, very important part of your situation. Acknowledgement of burnout, and determining that it is indeed your primary work that has caused you so many issues. Although, keep in mind, you still need to experiment without it to determine causation. This is EXACTLY where I was. I performed the experiment and found that it was indeed full time work that was making me miserable. After five months off, and complete burnout recovery, going back for a shorter, defined period of time, has worked out pretty good. If it wasn't for this COVID madness, I'd probably say I was pretty satisfied with the situation. Although I could have done better, see below.

Keep an open mind though, because you may find your work was only partially a causative factor. This was true for me, my attitude surrounding it sucked as well. The adjustment I made with time off really helped. I also realized there were several other lifestyle factors that helped create the burnout nightmare.

When you take your time off, which I HIGHLY encourage given the above statement, make sure to have some other activities/growth planned as the burnout begins to fade. That is the time to transition into whatever sustainable lifestyle you want to try. My big mistake here was that I kind-of, sort-of ,worked on ERE as burnout waned. I did make some strides, but then back-pedaled a bit. This was because I didn't have any real plans, I slipped back into the status quo after I felt better. It seems you are in a similar situation, some general ideas, but no real plans. I would suggest that you better define to yourself what you are going to do as the burnout fades.

2B1S was in a similar circumstance. He had his travel and lifestyle plans, and he executed. IMO that put him in a much better position than I am in. I certainly don't mean SMART goals or any such BS. Just that you maybe have a list of 3 things you want to try for lifestyle changes and sustainability, and a rough outline of how to begin once your recovery from FT work has been established. I wish so much I had done something similar and intend to do so in the next round of time off.

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