Social Credit System

Intended for constructive conversations. Exhibits of polarizing tribalism will be deleted.
Tom Young
Posts: 52
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 2:38 pm
Location: MidWest, Florida

Social Credit System

Post by Tom Young » Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:24 pm

The subject is not well understood by most Americans. In view of that, instead of bringing forth my own opinion in detail, I'd like to post a single article that describes how it is working in China.

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/china-s ... -explained

There is also an extended article about this in Wikipedia.

While I won't be around to see it, my thinking is that this basic concept would be in the best interest of our country, going forward.

I would be very interested in an extended discussion about the subject. Anyone up for this?

8-)

7Wannabe5
Posts: 5321
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Social Credit System

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:35 pm

Good manners are important, but this reads like nightmarish dystopia to me.

IlliniDave
Posts: 2613
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:46 pm

Re: Social Credit System

Post by IlliniDave » Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:57 pm

Uh, no thanks, regarding the "policy".

Tyler9000
Posts: 1581
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:45 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Social Credit System

Post by Tyler9000 » Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:14 pm

Key quote from the article:

"China’s social credit system is a state-driven program designed to do one thing, to uphold and expand the Chinese Communist Party’s power."

Hard pass.

Mister Imperceptible
Posts: 1080
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:18 pm

Re: Social Credit System

Post by Mister Imperceptible » Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:16 pm

Does lack of social credits or a high number of social demerits mean my organs get harvested? They do it while you are still alive to ensure the organs are fresh and so you can enjoy the experience!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_t ... n_in_China

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/chin ... s-n1018646

Referring to one instance in which he extracted an organ from a living patient, he said: “What I recall is with my scalpel, I tried to cut into his skin, there was blood to be seen. That indicates that the heart was still beating … At the same time, he was trying to resist my insertion, but he was too weak.”

flying_pan
Posts: 52
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:06 am
Location: USA, Oregon

Re: Social Credit System

Post by flying_pan » Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:18 pm

Tom Young wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:24 pm
While I won't be around to see it, my thinking is that this basic concept would be in the best interest of our country, going forward.

I would be very interested in an extended discussion about the subject. Anyone up for this?
Unless it is a trolling and I missed some clues, I am very interested why do you think it will be in the best interest of the USA?
What exactly will improve based on that system?

And the obligatory note that credit score is basically a social credit system. If you are poor and your credit is bad, you can have hard time getting a good deal on a car (might be impossible), hard to rent a place, might be even hard to get a job. All because we, as a society, accept that if a person does not know how to handle money (at least how to not screw everything up) then we should not trust this person in general.

Of course, this does not work with rich people (or people who know somebody who can help them). They can easily bypass all these checks.

So, what is the difference? (except the obvious façade and the fact that political targeting is not very efficient in credit scoring)

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 11493
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 73
Contact:

Re: Social Credit System

Post by jacob » Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:31 pm

flying_pan wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:18 pm
And the obligatory note that credit score is basically a social credit system. If you are poor and your credit is bad, you can have hard time getting a good deal on a car (might be impossible), hard to rent a place, might be even hard to get a job. All because we, as a society, accept that if a person does not know how to handle money (at least how to not screw everything up) then we should not trust this person in general.
Yes, basically this (what's quoted). Everything is a credit system in the sense that credit flows one way while goods (stuff, services, etc.) flows the opposite way. The stuff-flow-for-credit-flow is what drives the system. Metrics differ between systems or isms. Given any system, stocks accumulate to those who differ in their production/consumption patterns. Some systems inherently favor either stocks or flows. Capitalism, for example, favors stock, thus making FIRE possible.

chenda
Posts: 1197
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:17 pm

Re: Social Credit System

Post by chenda » Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:06 pm

I think this has the potential to be a good idea. An efficient way to punish and discourage minor offences and anti-social behaviour. We already have credit checks and CRB checks. And driving licence points. It would need proper regulatory oversight of course to ensure it was not abused. Actually I think there was an episode of Black Mirror about something like this.

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 11493
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 73
Contact:

Re: Social Credit System

Post by jacob » Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:24 pm

Problem/challenge being that we become what we measure ... or attempt to guide/enforce...

Tyler9000
Posts: 1581
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:45 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Social Credit System

Post by Tyler9000 » Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:31 pm

chenda wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:06 pm
Actually I think there was an episode of Black Mirror about something like this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosedive_(Black_Mirror)

Tom Young
Posts: 52
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 2:38 pm
Location: MidWest, Florida

Re: Social Credit System

Post by Tom Young » Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:47 am

With literally thousands of studies to review, I wouldn't pretend to make a definitive statement about the subject.
... and I (maybe "we" ) will not be around to see it take place, still it deserves some thought.

Taking from a stream of conciousness, some questions:

Where do we learn "morality"? At what age? From whom? Ongoing or limited to early years?

Is success risk/reward? or based on doing what is right?

Does "society" provide enough rules and regulations to provide for "equal opportunity"?

Is the legal system adequate for the individual?

How would you define the word Society?

Will the future be better served by refining our laws, or by establishing measurable basic standards (perhaps in a national database) ?

Assuming a Social Credit System, what part of your civil rights would be restricted? In other words, what would YOU do different from what you do now?

Augustus
Posts: 904
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:15 am

Re: Social Credit System

Post by Augustus » Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:51 am

My wife is from China, her take is that it's due to a failure in law enforcement. There is a lot of fraud in China, and due to the way the provinces and laws are setup, it's easy for scammers to move from province to province and to avoid repercussions. IIRC the judges have no power to enforce things beyond their province, and even in the province itself it's hard, e.g. some old lady gives a real estate developer scammer 300k of life savings, the guy takes the money and runs, the lady goes to the court, the judge rules in her favor, the judge now has beg the police to do things, and if anything does get done, the scammer skips town and the police say it's out of their jurisdiction. A second situation my wife mentioned was that the scammer often puts the assets in someone elses name, like a girlfriend or relative, the relative owns the mansion and or flys everyone to famous resorts to enjoy the money, and there's nothing the police can do. The solution, according to the Chinese government, is this social rating system, now the fraudster can't fly to the relatives fancy resort, and his face is posted all over the country for when he tries to scam someone again.

I'm sure the chinese government is also using it to harass political opponents, etc, they always do that.

It seems like a very hacky solution, I'm not a fan. A better solution would be along the lines of an FBI and SEC.

Riggerjack
Posts: 2710
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:09 am

Re: Social Credit System

Post by Riggerjack » Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:17 pm

While I won't be around to see it, my thinking is that this basic concept would be in the best interest of our country, going forward.
:D


Taller fences and more powerful shepherds are always popular among the flock.

Does this mean taller fences and more powerful shepherds are good for the sheep? They certainly cut down on wolf attacks. But the fate of sheep who are shepherded is to be sheared and/or slaughtered and/or schtuped.

Which threat is more real to you will determine whether you want more freedom, or more sheparding.

I've known wolves, and shepherds. I prefer wolves, and distance.
It would need proper regulatory oversight of course to ensure it was properly abused.
Fixed that for you. 8-)

Tyler9000
Posts: 1581
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:45 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Social Credit System

Post by Tyler9000 » Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:21 pm

Tom Young wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:47 am
Assuming a Social Credit System, what part of your civil rights would be restricted?
Whatever the government decides to measure or the mob decides to punish. You not having a say is sorta the point. Question the metric and rather than changing the system you just get downvoted to oblivion. Refuse to participate in punishing someone for something you actually agree with, and that's also a demerit on you. It's group mind control.

The Chinese government likes to focus on how the system discourages bad behavior like not paying your debts or picking up after your dog. But that's all a facade for the most important items on the banned list:
  • Criticizing the government
  • Criticizing the social credit system
  • Visiting unauthorized websites
  • Being friends with or messaging others with low scores or those who commit the above offenses
Make no mistake, it's all about political power.

Also, if you think that the bureaucrats controlling the system are subject to the same rules you are, you aren't paying attention to how these things work. The other unspoken reality is that wealthy, connected people are able to buy good scores so the rules only apply to the poor. The Chinese government also has paid informants feeding the system, so grease the right palms and you can also take down people you don't like. In the US, I could easily see that being extended to shadow political groups like CTR who would quickly pivot from paying people to astroturf social media to paying them to mass report political opponents to the social credit system.

BTW, I don't care for credit scores, either. I get the idea, but giving three companies the ability to ruin your financial life with virtually no recourse or accountability for mistakes on their end is pretty messed up. Years ago someone stole my identity to rent an apartment in my name and skipped out on the rent. Even with huge amounts of documentation on my end, one credit agency still refused to correct my record with zero explanation and no appeals process. Now picture that affecting not only your ability to get a good rate on a loan, but also determining whether or not you go to a reeducation camp. If you think identity theft is a pain in the ass now, just wait until your freedom is on the line.

IlliniDave
Posts: 2613
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:46 pm

Re: Social Credit System

Post by IlliniDave » Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:58 pm

The real problem is who makes up the system. Here in the US it's likely to be one political party or the other. It means instantly around half the population will be put in the position of being in the wrong and under coercion to convert to right-think.

Do you want Donald Trump designing the credit system? Do you want Rebecca Warren designing it (she's probably got a plan for it, ha)? Joe Biden?

Team A might come up with a system that awards credits for individual wealth accumulation (maybe even ER), gun ownership/competence, patriotism/"America-first", church attendance, private charity, smaller gov't (i.e., lower taxes), etc., and punish alternative viewpoints.

Team B might come up with a system that awards credits (or demerits) for immutable items like race, gender, orientation, rewarding some and punishing others based on genetics. Credits for surrendering firearms, abdicating personal property to the gov't, opposing border enforcement, atheism/non-religiousness, promoting minorities, hating Russians, etc.

Obviously a little hyperbole there and items pulled from current pre-election politics, but the point should be easy enough to see. If individual liberty is going to remain a value in the US, there's no place for a state-sponsored social credit system, especially if the government is to remain secular. This really is the niche of religions in days past, where people in the US were free to sign up for the one they liked the best to shape their social group within the broad scope of what is legal.

TopHatFox
Posts: 2012
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:07 pm
Location: FL; 25

Re: Social Credit System

Post by TopHatFox » Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:42 pm

Maybe If it rewarded more ppl to be a normal or less bmi

User avatar
Ego
Posts: 4352
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Social Credit System

Post by Ego » Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:58 pm

It already exists. Piecemeal.

In some ways our fragmented system is not as thorough as China's, but as Tyler mentions above, it can be draconian when it goes wrong.

This area is changing very quickly. Some people do everything they can to keep themselves out of databases and periodically send removal requests to the big hoarders. That can backfire when they need something that relies on one. As they become more interconnected this will be more challenging.

Others try to anticipate what the system wants (and what it will want) and make it appear to be true.

chenda
Posts: 1197
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:17 pm

Re: Social Credit System

Post by chenda » Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:23 pm

@tyler9000 - Thanks that was it, I love black mirror.

@riggerjack - I prefer hunted wolves and strict vegetarian shepherds, though I'm sure if we met in real life we would get on just great and would bond over deep discussions about damp course membranes and concrete longevity ;)

Tom Young
Posts: 52
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 2:38 pm
Location: MidWest, Florida

Re: Social Credit System

Post by Tom Young » Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:29 pm

Abuses to any system can open the door for criticism of the entire system.

First...take a hard look at the social systems that are already in place. Without too much stress or cost, you can find out a great deal about me. Do I pay my bills? What is my home value/equity? My Criminal background, including parking tickets. Where I go onthe internet. Where I have lived. My education. People that I'm associated with. Where I have worked. Positions I have held, business, political or social/volunteer services.
A "Social" Credit system to this extent already exists.

Can a properly run social credit system work to the benefit of our society? Just as a Credit Account score of 800+, can offer benefits, why not a high rating score offer the same kind of benefits. Not to get too far into the weeds, but:
If my pristine driving score, with no tickets of any kind would lower my driver licence to $5, and my neighbor who has a boatful of tickets will pay $500.
If I give blood, or participate in voluntary organ donor or medical experiments, perhaps a special benefit from the medical industry. On the other hand, poor but controllable health habits might increase medical costs.
What about bonus points (possibly dollars or other benefit offsets) for volunteerism. Lower tax rates, free admission parks/museums, or public transportation.

You could make up dozens of rewards for correct and good behavior.

As I see it, not a restrictive, punishment based government set of regulations, but a framework of moral social standards that would be known to all and taught at an early age. The postive effect would be reached by having the score as an open viewable record.
You have lived an honest straightforward life. I am a con man... oweing everyone, and double dealing is my way of life. We both go after the same job. What happens? It's like "Would you buy a car from this man?" But that's what it's like today.

Before you buy... you look at the rating "stars". Not so very different.

Turn the young man into a solid, honest, citizen before he racks up a lost future. Make the rating score work ... always in a positive way.

Years away... maybe never... the best parts of 1984. Without writing a book, just a few thoughts, and a picture of a country going in the right direction, where honesty and morality is the at the center.

Mister Imperceptible
Posts: 1080
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:18 pm

Re: Social Credit System

Post by Mister Imperceptible » Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:47 pm

Governments don’t live together, people live together.

No contract or piece of paper or credit score or social credit rating can enforce morality. It must come from men. Good moral behavior is cultural or religious teaching. The top-down attempts at what can only be achieved from the bottom-up only result in more opportunities for corruption and dystopia.

“The best parts of 1984” cannot be had without the bad parts. You get cannot get something for nothing, so offer nothing extra.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eyPZFi2b380

Post Reply