3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Where are you and where are you going?
ertyu
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by ertyu »

guitarplayer wrote:
Tue Sep 13, 2022 1:44 am
And you still have the place you have been renovating a while back?
I still have it but it's been sitting abandoned for a year now and given the general state of dilapidation it was in, I won't be surprised to come back to broken windows and pigeons roosting inside (I am only joking a little - the windows are from the 1970s and one had a cracked glass when I left - double-paned though, so keep your fingers crossed). The renovations didn't go far - I was out of my depth and it got to me, I got demoralized and gave up. I left to take my current job.

Looking back, I was not ready to stop working. After purchasing the place, I had €180k in cash and I was stressed and insecure about that being too little. I would be too anxious about buying necessary tools and materials, for instance, and as a result I did nothing. Having some more cash to complete repairs would be good. I seem to be saving around 30k usd per calendar year. So far, I have decided on one more year at this job. Long-term plans are still up in the air. I feel like I only have enough money to retire in my country of origin but I'm not at all sure I actually want to live there. I am not ready for my means to limit me geographically - as opposed to others who have recently written about being done with an itinerant lifestyle, I am very much used to moving every year or two and before I left for this current job, I was feeling quite trapped where I was.

On the other hand, I don't want to sell the place. I loved the view over the city and the sense of space one got in that apartment. I have no idea how the decision to keep it will pan out geopolitically - as things stand, nothing guarantees that it won't be in the condition numerous apartment buildings are in now in ukraine. Things seem quite risky and precarious. I also have no idea how much money a proper structural repair would absorb. What really needs to happen is the whole place needs to be stripped down to concrete and redone from scratch. There are also a couple of faults that are structural - e.g. cracked 70s concrete. So far, I seem inclined to repair it, this seems to be an emotional decision rather than anything else.

In summary, I don't feel ready to quit having a steady source of income, I don't feel ready to quit on my international life and settle down in my tiny hometown where everyone knows my dirty socks since I was in first grade, and I am not ready to give up on the place I got and sell it. I have no idea how I'm going to square all of the above. Have been looking at various data analytics bootcamps but have made no decisions. Really, what I should do is get good at finance - currently busy being lazy, self-pitiful, and whiny about it and not making progress -- in other words, the usual. I know it's the rational direction to pursue but I don't have faith that I can make a good investor at all and so I am dragging my feet. I'll probably get over it eventually.

take2
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by take2 »

Can you not rent it out whilst you’re gone? Seems a bit of a waste to have it sit empty. I presume you don’t have very high carrying costs associated with it?

2Birds1Stone
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by 2Birds1Stone »

IIRC it was decrepit in it's current state.

ertyu
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by ertyu »

take2 wrote:
Tue Sep 13, 2022 3:09 pm
Can you not rent it out whilst you’re gone? Seems a bit of a waste to have it sit empty. I presume you don’t have very high carrying costs associated with it?
I don't, no. Property tax is negligible. But yes, as 2B1S said, right now it's not really fit for human habitation unless you're me and a bit touched in the head. It's definitely not fit to rent. I do have to actually do the work and fix it up, I just have to get over my eeyoree tendencies haha

zbigi
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by zbigi »

ertyu wrote:
Tue Sep 13, 2022 11:47 pm
I don't, no. Property tax is negligible. But yes, as 2B1S said, right now it's not really fit for human habitation unless you're me and a bit touched in the head. It's definitely not fit to rent. I do have to actually do the work and fix it up, I just have to get over my eeyoree tendencies haha
I think everything is potentially rentable. After all, people in US rent flats in slums with bed bugs and whatnot for example. In London, people rent garden sheds with no amenities. The amount of money coming in may not be great though.

ertyu
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by ertyu »

zbigi wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 2:26 am
I think everything is potentially rentable. After all, people in US rent flats in slums with bed bugs and whatnot for example. In London, people rent garden sheds with no amenities. The amount of money coming in may not be great though.
I'd disagree. At some level it's not worth it - what sort of tenant would rent a property like that? Right now, there's no appliances, no sink in the kitchen - really no kitchen to speak of, it's not even an empty space, it's the sort of disgusting squalor left over after a hoarder - look up extreme cleaning videos on youtube. I get the idea, but I'm not sure that place is even good for a crackhouse. The area doesn't command high rent, because it experiences brain drain - the young all work elsewhere. I get what you're saying, and it would have been a good idea in a different location. But as is, it's really no good.

ertyu
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by ertyu »

Reddit advising a Belgian on how to properly live with minimal heat this winter. Nothing that would surprise anyone on this forum, but I did want to preserve a link to the thread for future use.

bostonimproper
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by bostonimproper »

Mug of tea, hot water bottle under a blanket with you, and a nice quilt can get you pretty far.

ertyu
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by ertyu »

official numbers now in: $27,010 saved over the last year ($32,010 less 5k for travel to get to my job and settling in expenses, etc, which got reimbursed but came out of preexisting savings so I think it's fair that I subtract them). Liquid NW: €220.9k per my interactive brokers' account. €9k more inaccessible in country of origin (bank wants me to show up in person). $1300 left in my current checking account until I receive September's salary, which I expect to be $3750.

Next year's savings goal: $3500* pm over 11 months -- so live on $250 pm on food, transportation, phone/internet ($18), and gas/water/electric** (rent gets covered directly by employer). I'm set on clothes/shoes and have a pantryfull of rice and miscellaneous legumes. I think it will be doable.

* I don't earn in dollars, this figure might not materialize as it assumes the exchange rate will not deteriorate further, which I consider to be unlikely. I will, however, try my best.
** have not kept track, but generally low. Plus I pre-paid a bunch of money on my untility cards.

ertyu
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by ertyu »

So far, my plans to go extremely frugal have not materialized to the extent I hoped. I have improved compared to last month, but lizard brain is rebelling against what it perceives to be unnecessary misery and deprivation. The traditional ERE solution here is to build one's skills up to the point where one can replace store-bought food and take-out with superior homecooking, but i don't think this is the case here. I am not a gourmet cook but I do well enough. Rather, I think it's a matter of a combo of addiction to refined sugar and other such on the one hand and a desire for a low-effort life and convenience on the other.

It's been making me wonder: why does the fact that I am rationally convinced and aware that something is the best course of action not automatically generate intrinsic motivation to pursue said course of action? A bunch of this is a biological drive towards the low-effort and high-reward, but this drive isn't insurmountable. Why am i not intrinsically motivated to reign it in when I understand that reigning it in is the objectively best course of action? This is not a heroin addiction we're talking about here. So ??

Switching tracks, I have been considering doing a MA degree in something like quantitative finance or data science. Part of the motivation about this is reading about guitarplayer's new job and catching myself thinking "wow, sure sounds nice, I wish this were me." A bigger part is, I want to continue to be able to draw on the consumer economy for income but as it is, I feel too narrowly specialized - I've dug down into this one gastarbeiter gig in this one location and I am fairly in-demand there at a wage of approx $3-3.5k/month resulting in savings of 2.5-3k per month which pays for 4-6 months post-retirement in my country of origin (assuming a monthly spend of a little over 500 usd/mo). It is not a bad gig but it's inflexible. I wish I had geographical flexibility as well as job flexibility.

Pursuing such a degree would cost 10-20k USD long-distance depending on the program. I do also find myself drawn to studying it in person - no idea why, intuition is pulling me there in spite of recognizing that this is likely to cost in the vicinity of 50k USD (assuming I will be a full-time student doing a 2-year degree). There is, yet again, a divide between what is rationally efficient - doing a 1-year long-distance degree alongside working my current gig for one more year - and what intuitively feels like the right move, which is trying to become a full-time student in, for instance, Norway.

Zooming out, I am also not sure if this degree is the right move or whether it is just escapism. In the sense that, I could probably acquire those skills idependently - but so far, I have not sat down and pursued acquiring those skills in a consistent manner. A part of me also wonders if what I'm trying to do is avoid the time when I will have to rely on my own money management skills to feed myself. I don't trust my own money management skills and I am afraid of making investment decisions because I am worried I will choose wrong. Any financial decision is risky and this frightens me. So, why not postpone the moment when I need to use quantitative skills to make investment decisions by doing a degree - maybe if I do a degree I will be "safe."

In either case, I don't feel like doing my current job any longer even though it's a safe source of income well inside my comfort zone. The time to sign for one more year('23-'24) is close, which is what brings up these thoughts.

zbigi
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by zbigi »

ertyu wrote:
Fri Oct 14, 2022 1:45 am
So far, my plans to go extremely frugal have not materialized to the extent I hoped. I have improved compared to last month, but lizard brain is rebelling against what it perceives to be unnecessary misery and deprivation. The traditional ERE solution here is to build one's skills up to the point where one can replace store-bought food and take-out with superior homecooking, but i don't think this is the case here. I am not a gourmet cook but I do well enough. Rather, I think it's a matter of a combo of addiction to refined sugar and other such on the one hand and a desire for a low-effort life and convenience on the other.
I am kind of similar, and I suspect many people are. Remember, ERE was created by Jacob, who was doing competetive swimming as a child/early teenager and later become a professional physicist. Both activities require unusually high tolerance for pain and misery :) So, what worked for him, might not be the best for you or me.

In my case, I'm trying to find a golden path of achieving 80% of spoiling myself while spending only 20% on it. I.e. I find that, I achieve most of the pleasures of eating good food if I eat it just two or three times a week. The rest of the week may be filled with (prefrozen) homecooking or cheap frozen meals from Aldi. Also, for me, cheapest $1.5 McDonalds meal goal a long way when it comes to delivering pleasure, without draining the budget that. Economize your hedonism :D

On a broader level, the desire for comfort food and comfort in general may stem from depression or general low-levels of mental well-being. The ideal solution is not to starve oneself of the comforts that help keep your head above water mentally, but to try to gradually fix oneself's inner life.
Switching tracks, I have been considering doing a MA degree in something like quantitative finance or data science. Part of the motivation about this is reading about guitarplayer's new job and catching myself thinking "wow, sure sounds nice, I wish this were me."
If you're just looking for an easy and very well-paying remote job (i.e. making six figures US while living in your home country), then coding is a better bet. There market for coders is much hotter, so companies are much more open to international, 100% remote hires.

mathiverse
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by mathiverse »

Maybe setting up your life differently will result in you being more frugal naturally, so you don't have to worry about this as a long term problem? When I went back to working full time recently, the chronic stress and the fact I had a lot of money coming in compared to what I was spending on made it so it was easy to let my expenses rise and hard to get motivation to cook at home to the extent I wanted to. It was really obvious this time around because I was paying more attention than previously.

Now that I'm back to a lower income, it's much easier to convince myself to cook at home. Now that the stress from the full time work is gone, I have more energy to cook. And now that I have more free time, I have the time to cook. Also because of those three things, it's easier to resist temptation when I'm out of the house and hungry due to planning my schedule badly one day.

In the book "Your Money or Your Life," there is an exercise where the reader tallies up the expenses due to working that will go away once they stop working. That increase in food costs due to work-related convenience needs and work-stress-related mental soothing foods, etc can be seen as part of the "costs" of working.

Would you eat out less naturally when you start going back to school and no longer had income coming in or when you go back to your home without having a job and had more time and also more financial incentive to avoid spending down your assets?

AnalyticalEngine
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

ertyu wrote:
Fri Oct 14, 2022 1:45 am
So far, my plans to go extremely frugal have not materialized to the extent I hoped. I have improved compared to last month, but lizard brain is rebelling against what it perceives to be unnecessary misery and deprivation. The traditional ERE solution here is to build one's skills up to the point where one can replace store-bought food and take-out with superior homecooking, but i don't think this is the case here. I am not a gourmet cook but I do well enough. Rather, I think it's a matter of a combo of addiction to refined sugar and other such on the one hand and a desire for a low-effort life and convenience on the other.
I struggle with this too. I've honed in on these causes for me:

1. I keep framing ERE/good habits as a "sacrifice" instead of as something positive. So healthy eating becomes "I can't go buy ice cream" instead of "I get to eat foods that are good for me." I've been trying to train the habit of looking at things from the positive angle instead of the deprivation angle, but it it's always a struggle.

2. There are so many cheap addictions in contemporary society that it can be hard to kick them all at once. For example, I gave up caffeine, which switched my addiction to sugar instead. Then I gave up sugar and it caused me to become addicted to the internet, etc. Kicking all the bad habits is hard for reasons of pure addiction. Sometimes it takes time, unfortunately.

3. Lack of stimulation and stress with no outlet. Most salaryman jobs combined with urban environments have a tendency to be extremely understimulating. I find when I get stressed at work or bored from being home too much, it's easy to self-sooth with sugar or eating out because I need the stimulation.

Right now, I'm trying to change my environment more than I change me. I'm hoping this helps. Don't be too hard on yourself though. The default in society is to accumulate addictions, so kicking them requires almost superhuman dedication.

ertyu
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by ertyu »

zbigi wrote:
Fri Oct 14, 2022 2:41 am
If you're just looking for an easy and very well-paying remote job (i.e. making six figures US while living in your home country), then coding is a better bet. There market for coders is much hotter, so companies are much more open to international, 100% remote hires.
Even with no experience? From what I hear, life is good for the qualified, experienced developers but not so much for the newbies.

And optimize my hedonism, check, hahahaha :lol: .

You're probably right on the depression. it's less bad than it used to be (if you read the beginning of this journal I sound downright batshit), but it's a known issue that doesn't seem to be going anywhere anytime soon, at least for now. The only thing that fixed the depression is not working full time -- and that's during covid, with being fired from my job, living with my parents for a while and having constant conflict with them, etc.

@mathiverse: I think you're spot on and what you're saying checks out.

@AE: You're completely right. I should probably do one of those journaling exercises where you consciously reframe the thing (e.g. "i'm depriving myself --> I get to eat healthy" as you suggested). The more I look at myself, the more I think undiagnosed adhd might be the issue with me as well, and a known feature of adhd is that reframes like these don't "swim up" automatically unless one makes a conscious effort to call them up -- so reviewing my reframes and making a conscious point to remember them might indeed be a productive direction. You are also correct on the low-level addictions and the understimulation. I feel both exhausted and understimulated when working, both because of the job and because I reduce my own levels of stimulation to cope with the exhaustion. All excellent points.

ertyu
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by ertyu »

I was contacted with a job opportunity that offers a change of location. It's Vietnam, which is both good and bad. I love Vietnam and the salary will be approx 2k a month. A "nice" lifestyle can be had on 1k, so about a 50% savings rate. The bad: more hours and more work than currently for lower savings potential: 3k to 1k. I am very tempted despite the negatives because of the change in location. I'm not overjoyed to be where I am, but am I ready to drop my monthly savings from 3k to 1k? I can't decide if this will be a good move. Vietnam sounds great, but if I'm working all day? Unsure.

zbigi
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by zbigi »

ertyu wrote:
Sat Oct 15, 2022 2:54 am
Even with no experience? From what I hear, life is good for the qualified, experienced developers but not so much for the newbies.
It doesn't happen immediately, but at least the ceiling is high and is very ERE-friendly (intermittent WfH development contracts can even be treated as a post-ERE "fun jobs"). So, the end state is nicer than in DS, which is something that could motivate you along the way. Also, I suspect that, if you'd be willing to invest at least 1 year to get a Masters towards being a data scientist, you could also use that time to learn a lot about coding and be much better than your typical bootcamp grads.

guitarplayer
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by guitarplayer »

I see a mention of me up there so will chip in to the discussion!

With the course I am doing now, important to note is that other than anything else I enjoy it and in this sense it is an end in itself. Obviously this is not the only reason I am doing it, but this is just applied ERE - better not to do things for one reason only. So it happens to also be an intellectual stretching, a good alibi to move career tracks, opens relatively easily doors to get other ventures (at an extra cost of building links - maths and stats has to be the Jack of all trades of STEM I would think), and other. The job switch - yes the current studying helped to get in the mindset, because it was actually a major shift from doing a (sometimes light) blue collar work to white collar work. That being said, the highlight of my interview was when I was describing my stats heavy research on why people run marathons that I did for my psych degree long time ago :)

My feeling now that I am in is that if you are already doing a white collar professional job, it should be possible to navigate your way to something more to do with data. @Egg transferred from policy making to software development. Then what @zbigi said about programming is likely true, too. But the main point I though of getting across is that it make sense to pursue things for many reasons.

For cravings etc I practice stoicism. It goes a long way if practiced regularly. I was going to write in my journal but forgot, but I had this though recently that stoicism if practiced regularly compounds geometrically onto Confucianism.

Vietnam sounds safe enough, ey? I think you mentioned earlier that where you are now might be tricky due to the war in Ukraine. So if Vietnam is a safer bet, sure thing. About savings, sure always better to save more rather than less, also the longer one works the less one needs because there is less life left to live. If you’ll be working all day in Vietnam and enjoying it, then that would be perfect because on top of it you’d also be saving!

ertyu
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by ertyu »

Vietnam sounds awesome if it wasn't for the long hours. 2k a month in Vietnam would be an excellent coastfire opportunity save for that. With the long hours, it will probably be like any other full-time job, just in Vietnam: work, collapse on the couch tired, more work, collapse on the couch tired. In addition, the longer hours would probably mean less time to do a degree while working full time. Also, I'd be taking a serious pay cut. The advantage to accepting the job would be that I'll be in the land of awesome coffee shops and easy beach access, and most importantly, that I won't be at my current location.

I will prepare questions and interview with the company regardless, and then decide.

About getting into IT:
zbigi wrote:
Sat Oct 15, 2022 4:51 am
if you'd be willing to invest at least 1 year to get a Masters towards being a data scientist, you could also use that time to learn a lot about coding and be much better than your typical bootcamp grads.
Assuming that 1. one can take a full year off, and 2. one is of average intelligence and starts from scratch, what course or learning/training would you recommend? I am gravitating towards something structured because given I'm 40 and have no experience, I'd like the weight of some sort of certification. There's also not knowing anything about coding - I don't even know what to learn and how I find that out. What's your advice? The goal is to have long-term intermittent access to freelance projects that require minimum additional effort: professionally, I have a preference for things that are low-key and don't require being on a constant treadmill of acquiring more and more tightly specialized professional knowledge. This is, I think, my chief source of reluctance to go into IT: it is always emphasized that one should aim for continuous learning and mastering new skills because the field keeps developing -- and this sounds exhausting to me because IT skills are skills I would be acquiring as a means to an end rather than as an end in itself.

zbigi
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by zbigi »

ertyu wrote:
Sat Oct 15, 2022 8:19 pm

Assuming that 1. one can take a full year off, and 2. one is of average intelligence and starts from scratch, what course or learning/training would you recommend? I am gravitating towards something structured because given I'm 40 and have no experience, I'd like the weight of some sort of certification. There's also not knowing anything about coding - I don't even know what to learn and how I find that out. What's your advice? The goal is to have long-term intermittent access to freelance projects that require minimum additional effort: professionally, I have a preference for things that are low-key and don't require being on a constant treadmill of acquiring more and more tightly specialized professional knowledge. This is, I think, my chief source of reluctance to go into IT: it is always emphasized that one should aim for continuous learning and mastering new skills because the field keeps developing -- and this sounds exhausting to me because IT skills are skills I would be acquiring as a means to an end rather than as an end in itself.
A couple thoughts/clarifications:
1. In my experience, those intermittent contracts are usually at least 6 months long. Also, getting them is usually not zero effort, because you have to go through 2-3 rounds of interview for each one, and each one has some specific expectations for which you need to brush up your knowledge. So, every interview takes a couple or even a couple dozens of hours (the "couple dozens" case is if they want you to do a take-home exercise). If you don't pass the interview for whatever reason (i.e. you're asking for too much money, they found an internal hire instead, they don't like your personality or you just don't know the required technologies well enough), you have to repeat the process.
Also, realistically, it will probably require at least 3 years of working full time until you're started to be considered for such contracts.

2. On having to upskill all the time. It's certainly required if you want to be a *great* developer. In current, superhot market though, companies are very happy to hire people who they know are just average. You don't need tech geniuses to code internal web apps anyway. So, frantic self-learning is not really all that required. In my case, this year, I've had 6 months between contracts, and I've put in maybe 40 hours of self-study in total, spread across a couple of weeks. And that was to learn technology that is farily interesting in itself and that I was curious about for a long time. Also, I actually tend to learn a lot for specific interviews - whenever I have an incoming interview with a company that relies heavily on some technology, I just read up on it for a day or two before the interview and sometimes also play with it for a bit, if it can be done with low effort.

Also, what Woody Allen said about showbusiness is also true in tech - i.e. there are three qualities that count: high skill/talent, professionalism (reliability, work ethic) and personality/likability (being easy and pleasant to work with). To get jobs in the field, you just need two of these three. If you have all three, you're a true catch.

3. As for learning. IMO, if you're not going to have a CS degree, your second best bet is having a portfolio - i.e. at least one reasonably advanced project, to which you can point and say "I made that". So, I would just pick something that I'm interested in, and do a web application about that. If you're for example interested in finance/portfolio management, you could make an online portfolio manager/tracker that is tailored to your specific way of managing money. It could connect to all the services on the Internet which are serving live data, maybe do some predictions/modelling for various scenarios, show some charts etc.
Also, it will be important fairly soon to choose a specialty at which you'll be aiming. The biggest ones are: front-end development, backend development, app development (iOS/Android). I think FE is an easiest one to get into, because the technologies in there churn so quickly that you won't have to compete with people who have 10+ years of experience with X (because X was only created in 2017 for example). It's also least intellectually satisfying and (judging by posts on Hacker News) has highest burnout rate. In any case, for the project I've outlined above, you'd have to do both front-end and backend. It would give you rudimentary understanding of both, one without which you wouldn't be able to be any good at the jobs anyway.
As for specific resources, unfortunately I can't recomend anything. But anything that promises to help you get skills required to build the website outlined above should be useful.
Last edited by zbigi on Sun Oct 16, 2022 8:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

ertyu
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by ertyu »

Thanks for the advice, @zbigi.

I also got advice elsewhere to look into an international accounting qualification - ACCA and CIMA were the options mentioned to me. Hopefully those can land me remote EU jobs.

@guitarplayer, you are right in pointing out that degrees should not be done for one reason alone. All of the ones I am considering right now have this property: business analyst, data analysis (I will need more programming than I know now for data science so that's not an immediately available option), and now, accounting. None of these motivate me intrinsically but a couple of months ago I received the advice to find a job I can do remote and I think that advice is good. Right now, I am too tied to my location.

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