3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Where are you and where are you going?
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slowtraveler
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by slowtraveler »

That sounds tough. Stressful but familiar.

You were successful at working a professional job. You got certified, experienced, and followed through the application process. You got laid off in a difficult recession with a decent package. I wouldn't call that a failure but a difficulty in life. There have been historic lay offs recently. Literally.

For me personally, moving out was the best thing I could do. Even if some months, I was staying in all day so I could spend less in the first year, I was able to quit some habits that consumed way too much time only after moving out and it happened naturally.

I tried moving out quite a few times and ended up moving back home in under a month till I left with the intention to travel the world but ultimately stayed in between mostly Thailand and Vietnam the first 2.5 years.

It's obvious you're not happy when working or living in your home city. If the city is lcol, moving out to your own place and getting work could help. Maybe only that will answer your question of whether professional work can be a match for you. Otherwise, the possibility for quality of life to skyrocket with an extended trip abroad is too high to spend life miserable. I do regret not leaving earlier.

I mean, what's the worst that can realistically happen? You move back home, where you are now.

ertyu
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by ertyu »

bigato wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 9:10 am
Would renting a furnished place be a better option than staying at your parent's?
Logically, yes. It would allow me to focus my attention away from the type of interpersonal entanglements that wouldn't be an issue with anyone else, but because it's them and it's family, can drive me mad. But for some reason intuition tells me it's not the right course of action - I don't know why, but I am willing to trust it for the time being to see what shakes out.
bigato wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 9:10 am
Also, do you think that the standards you set for what kind of house you want to live in (beautiful, location, etc), could be in any way influenced by a latent desire to be accepted/validated by your parents?
No, not really. My surroundings do impact me a lot in an aesthetic sense, though. Visual clutter gets to me. Being in a minimalist, clean and simple space, on the other hand, brings a sense of peace. I am very much the type to have a loved armchair and a favorite coffee mug and to take pleasure if sitting on said chair reading and having coffee. When I am psychologically stressed, I often react by trying to declutter. In the past, when I've lived in places I have found pleasant, I've also noticed that I have embedded some ideal about how I'd like my life to be into how I have arranged my surroundings and it's felt good when my surroundings have reflected that back at me. I also browse r/male living space and r/amateur room porn :lol:/

But I would like to be validated by my parents as a separate person whose interiority is sovereign and worthy of equal regard. I am also aware this is very unlikely to happen. Still haven't found a way to let go.

ertyu
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by ertyu »

slowtraveler wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 9:45 am
I wouldn't call that a failure but a difficulty in life.
Thanks, man. Means a lot.
slowtraveler wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 9:45 am
For me personally, moving out was the best thing I could do. Even if some months, I was staying in all day so I could spend less in the first year, I was able to quit some habits that consumed way too much time only after moving out and it happened naturally.
This makes intuitive sense to me. I have also noticed that some of my bad habits are ways for me to redirect and self-medicate stressors. Conversely, I have noticed that I am held back from developing good habits by bullshit psychological leftover crap from my teen years. For example, it doesn't feel safe for me to start running while I am at my parents' place (even though there is a suitable park nearby). I'm aware it sounds wacked out, but there's a part in me that literally thinks it can't be seen trying to develop a running habit. And when I look into why that is, it's absolutely related to how i know for a fact that i will be Watched and parents will Comment. I don't know why this is such a big deal to me and why subconscious is so dead set and determined to prevent Being Commented On. Here is the sort of thing that is likely to happen:

me: somehow attracts attention to myself and my running.
father: "If you are trying to lose weight, you should do X thing. Why, when I was younger and me and my friend Y went and did whatever, I lost 5 kilos!"
me: I am not trying to lose weight. Right now, I'm focusing on building general fitness and endurance.
father: yes, but IF YOU WERE TRYING TO LOSE WEIGHT *hint hint nudge nudge* ...

It's like, every single thing turns into an opportunity to (1) not validate and recognize what I have achieved or am trying to achieve and (2) a thinly or not so thinly veiled pointing-out of my failings, and (3) an opportunity for him to start telling me how *he* wants me to run my life. It's not as obvious a dysfunction as when there is a drunk or a violent person in the household, but it is insidious and constant. Especially with regard to fitness, I remember my father seeing me try to do push-ups as a teen and come to comment on what a wimp I am. It was only years later that I had the thought, "wait a second, an actual father worth his salt would've said something like, "oh, you've decided to work on X thing? Cool! How many can you do? Great work, keep going." Or, another favorite: to rub it in that I must be exercising because I'm not too successful with girls. To this day, starting to exercise is linked in my head with admitting that I am a loser and a failure.

Tl;dr: it absolutely makes sense to me that by moving out one eliminates a significant source of what's holding one back. And yes, the city I am in right now is comparatively lcol. So I really wonder why it is that intuition insists that moving out is not the way.
slowtraveler wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 9:45 am
I mean, what's the worst that can realistically happen?
The worst thing that could possibly happen is the money starts diminishing and diminishing, and I need to repeat the entire professional full time job for 10 yrs thing again. That is literally my worst fear right now - that my savings will be gone or depleted and that I will have to go back to work - including maybe go back to work forever, if I am stuck working in home country.

I was thinking about this the other day: I think I have the stash down, I have the low expenses down, but what stops me is how, as opposed to Jacob, I don't have a part time job, which is not too taxing and which I don't mind doing, that can cover a significant part of my expenses. Having access to a job like that would go a long way towards ensuring my peace of mind.
Last edited by ertyu on Sat May 23, 2020 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

McTrex
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by McTrex »

Ertyu,

You say you have been fired from your last two jobs. How similar were those jobs in terms of company size, work culture, industry, etc?

I have been a consultant for many years now, so I have seen the inside of many companies, from very small to very big. In some companies, I became almost instant “friends” with my customers. In others, I felt very uncomfortable and wanted to leave as soon as possible. This match (or lack of it) between your character and the work environment can have a huge impact on your performance and well-being.

Is it possible working at a different kind of company might suit you better?

Jason

Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by Jason »

I didn't think it was possible, but I believe if ERE was to hand out an annual Kierkegaard award for The Most Entertainingly Tormented Poster, you would interrupt Suo's multi-year run.

ertyu
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by ertyu »

McTrex wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:58 am
This match (or lack of it) between your character and the work environment can have a huge impact on your performance and well-being.

Is it possible working at a different kind of company might suit you better?
Good advice. Once the depressive navel-gazing lets off, I will think about the features the companies shared. I doubt I will ever be joyful happy and excited to return to work, but if the suck goes from 103 to 98, that would still be a win.

Jason wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 12:10 pm
I didn't think it was possible, but I believe if ERE was to hand out an annual Kierkegaard award for The Most Entertainingly Tormented Poster, you would interrupt Suo's multi-year run.
pox on your BA stock :P people like you are the reason why young men on reddit complain that only girls get their depression taken seriously

joke aside tho - shaming people for where they are and what particular bends their road needs to go through is Not Cool. Further: here is the only thing that has never ever solved problems or made them any better: pushing problems away, pretending they don't exist, or keeping a stiff upper lip so I don't look like I have a small pee-pee.

Jason

Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by Jason »

ertyu wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 12:46 pm
joke aside tho - shaming people for where they are and what particular bends their road needs to go through is Not Cool.
You would think I would have learned that after being kicked out of every 12 step group I ever attended.

Quick story: Many years ago, I was at an extended family gathering, I was in my 20's, still living at home. A relation by marriage only, someone I knew rather informally, after observing my nuclear family dynamics, came up to me, put his arm around my shoulder and said "You need to get out of there." So I did, as hard as it was. Flash forward twenty-five years later, my father now deceased a number of years. I receive an email from my mother "Just to let you know, Blah Blah Blah died," Blah blah blah being the arm around my shoulder guy. I guarantee you one thing. You will not work this out. You will not get to the bottom of this thing you got going on with your parents. Bottom is how low you are willing to go and you already seem to be about seven leagues beneath the barrel at this point heading straight downwards. I may not be cool. But either was the arm around my shoulder guy. Twenty five years goes mighty quickly and one thing I noticed, my navel looks exactly the same as it did back then.

Frita
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by Frita »

ertyu wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 12:46 pm
joke aside tho - shaming people for where they are and what particular bends their road needs to go through is Not Cool. Further: here is the only thing that has never ever solved problems or made them any better: pushing problems away, pretending they don't exist, or keeping a stiff upper lip so I don't look like I have a small pee-pee.
Agreed, shaming will keep you stuck. At some point others train you to do it to yourself and look for others who function the same way.

Pushing away problems, pretending they don’t exist, and/or keeping a stiff upper lip all seem like avoidance. That will bite one in the ass eventually too.

ertyu
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by ertyu »

Jason wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 1:16 pm
Bottom is how low you are willing to go and you already seem to be about seven leagues beneath the barrel at this point heading straight downwards.
Hm this might actually be it. As in, hitting bottom with them might get me to finally be able to give up hope. Thanks for the straight talk man and for taking shit as good as you give. And yes, I do know that I need to get out. So far, getting out physically has not resulted in being able to get out emotionally. Let's hope this time it sticks.
Last edited by ertyu on Sat May 23, 2020 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ertyu
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by ertyu »

@Frita: insightful as always. And, as your comments often do, it prompted a realization: it's strange, the contrast between the things I am ashamed of and the things I am not. E.g. I am not ashamed of talking in a very personal manner here - also, in general, talking about shit like this; I guess I am more ok than many with being psychologically vulnerable in conversation. But I am ashamed about things like my parents seeing me exercise. The contrast somehow brought it home that there *is* nothing inherently shameful there - it's just that in one case, I have had crap teen experiences associated with the thing, and in the other case, I had not (it never occurred to teenage me to bare his soul to his parents. smart kid. intuitively knew it wouldn't be any good). Somehow it de-linked the shame from the thing. In a, "well, you got hurt, so there's a scab there, normal" sort of way. Might not help with parents but might help with how those experiences have generalized - e.g. a sense I have that to exercise where people close to me can see me makes me unacceptably vulnerable. E.g. I'd be ashamed to exercise in front of someone I'm in a relationship with, when that's really a very normal thing for people to do. Thanks.

Jason

Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by Jason »

Did you know that there is a picture of Elie Weisel in Buchenwald? Like in one those pictures of emaciated guys lying together in a bunk bed? You look carefully and there's ol' Elie poking his head out, before he was emancipated, before he went to the Sorbonne, before he won the Nobel Prize, before he became the Michael Jordan of 20th century Jews, before Bernie Madoff Holocausted his bank account. I asked my therapist, how does that happen? How does a guy go through that and have the capacity to accomplish so much later when I can't stop pissing down my own leg because of some childhood bullshit. He said he wasn't sure, but it might be due to something Elie didn't possess as much as something he did possess. I think about that a lot.

ertyu
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by ertyu »

Jason wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 1:56 pm
Did you know that there is a picture of Elie Weisel in Buchenwald? Like in one those pictures of emaciated guys lying together in a bunk bed? You look carefully and there's ol' Elie poking his head out, before he was emancipated, before he went to the Sorbonne, before he won the Nobel Prize, before he became the Michael Jordan of 20th century Jews, before Bernie Madoff Holocausted his bank account. I asked my therapist, how does that happen? How does a guy go through that and have the capacity to accomplish so much later when I can't stop pissing down my own leg because of some childhood bullshit. He said he wasn't sure, but it might be due to something Elie didn't possess as much as something he did possess. I think about that a lot.
Viktor Frankl was good for me on that one. (holocaust survivors imo are more badass than i can ever hope to be, in their shoes, i'd be pissing down my own leg, too. wouldn't kill myself 'cause you need a certain degree of energy and agency even for that shit). Anyway, Victor Frankl was discribing people picturing having conversations with relatives, people latching onto an idea of something meaningful they can do when they get out (tell about the experience, make others understand, etc.). You need a certain amount of core psychological health and wholeness to pull that off. E.g. to believe that telling your story and making people understand would prevent future atrocities, you need to have certain fundamental beliefs about how humans are -- and fundamental beliefs about how humans are don't grow on trees, they're absorbed in the nuclear family.

EW and VF also represent survivor bias - literally. We rarely hear from the concentration camp survivors who had PTSD for life.

CS
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by CS »

Keep in mind self-care might not 'feel right.' It might actually feel terrifying, shitty and exactly the opposite of what you have been conditioned to look for.

Making the leap is just as much about managing that fear as any other action.

On other words, it is not always best to rely on your feelings when retraining your brain and behavior. What feels normal now is what is familiar, which is also what is making you miserable.

ertyu
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by ertyu »

CS wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 2:26 pm
Keep in mind self-care might not 'feel right.' It might actually feel terrifying, shitty and exactly the opposite of what you have been conditioned to look for.

Making the leap is just as much about managing that fear as any other action.
More straight talk. Thank you, this is wise.

mooretrees
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by mooretrees »

I got nothing special to offer, but what CS wrote has been my experience so far with going through changes. Recently had a very uncomfortable miscommunication with best friend of 20 years. It took two days and a LOT of introspection to be able to talk gently and lovingly together. I was completely uncomfortable talking with her precisely because I wasn't sweeping something under the rug, I was trying to change my pattern of fairly poor communication. It worked, but only because she was up for it and has done a LOT of therapy and I've done some therapy. However, this experience is totally not going to happen with my parents or siblings. They have no interest and, actually, neither do I.

So, while you seem to grasp that your relationship with your parents is unlikely to ever change you are clearly holding out hope for it to change. That's lovely of you. But they sound like assholes and it sounds so fundamentally awful to be there. You've moved from the frying pan to the whatever the other part is. Terrible job with total depression to terrible home life and miserable parents. When can you get a break!!! Can you give yourself a break? Also, have you thought about doing psilocybin? I've read some limited studies of its usefulness treating PTSD (which you might have considering your parents) and treatment resistant depression. Interesting research on how the brain is wired and theories about how mushrooms can ease some negative patterns. I appreciate your kind words in my journal so hope things get better for you.

slowtraveler
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by slowtraveler »

You've built a lot of resentment towards your parents. It's clear that you need a change of setting or this will very likely worsen.

If it's lcol, you could just go look at rooms available. No commitment needed but looking at some rooms every week is the first step.

The countries I mentioned are morbidly easily to set up in. Renting a bike and apartment for a monthly rental can be done in a day. If you decide it's not right for you, you get a plane ticket back. If you are patient on the ticket, it's not expensive. You don't go and stay abroad if it's obvious the plan isn't working. Let's say the round trip ticket is 700 and first month of expenses is on the high end, 1300. You're out 2000 if you return after a month.

You decide what's best for you, but if you are feeling your folks stifling your life to the degree you're posting, it's harmful to stay.

I love my parents but one of them would push me towards whatever they thought was best. This got very unhealthy. I bought the plane ticket with 187 dollars worth of points when they were out of the country. I tried to not think during this time about the huge change. They cried knowing I probably wouldn't come back to live. I felt doubt only on the day I was leaving. Once I landed, it was quite the experience to learn how to be on my own. An apartment should be under 150 USD and a bike under 100USD. You should get a motorcycle license and international driver permit before leaving.

Just take the first step to move out and evaluate after a month. You'll be better off than where you are now. If you hate it, you can go back long before even 10% of your stash is gone. If you pull off getting a job abroad or online, you may never have to return.

Der Leiermann
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by Der Leiermann »

A few thoughts on the relationship with your parents. It sounds like you are a bit like cat and dog, where there is little mutual understanding of each other. A way of describing it is with the analogy of love languages in a relationship. Some people show their love in a relationship by saying "I love you", others show their love by doing something thoughtful, etc (https://oureverydaylife.com/love-languages-5533438.html).

You and your dad seem to have communicate very differently. He seems to be all about tough love, prepping you for the big bad world out there by toughening you up (and in doing that, not admitting that you've grown up already). That's how he shows he cares (assuming he does). But that's not how you need/want to be spoken to, you only interpret it as criticism.

All of the above can be complete and utter BS depending on the situation. But it doesn't sound healthy and it doesn't sound like you'll get the recognition and respect that you want.

ertyu
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by ertyu »

A hack: if I train myself to get up early, I get alone time. For the first time in my life, waking up at 4am seems attractive. Can you imagine? 5 hours to myself before everyone else wakes up

Frita
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by Frita »

In the western part of the US, back in the mining hayday of the 1800s, miners would stay at a boardinghouse in eight hour shifts to eat-sleep-eat. Very efficient, simple but smart solution to a problem. Your fix of getting up early for alone time was similarly elegant. May those five hours of solitude give you some traction.

Edit: To clarify, I am not saying you’ve found a long-term solution anymore than those miners decided a three-shift boardinghouse arrangement was Tolerable. But if five hours of peace can relieve some stress in order to see things as they are and choose a plan of action (versus a reaction), I applaud that.
Last edited by Frita on Tue May 26, 2020 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

7Wannabe5
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

The last time I once again made the mistake of staying with my mother, I found myself venting years of frustration at a decrepit 79 year old, because she has never learned how to pick up after herself. In the moment, 55 year old me became emotionally entwined with 13 year old me who was too embarrassed to invite her friends over after school, because even though we lived in a perfectly decorated, brand new classic brick colonial in a very nice neighborhood, our house was always a complete mess, because all my mother did was sleep all day and let my 3 year old sister run wild in a saggy diaper, dumping cheerios and streaming toilet paper from room to room.

IOW, my advice to you is get out/ stay out.

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