mathiverse's journal

Where are you and where are you going?
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mathiverse
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Re: mathiverse's journal

Post by mathiverse »

@theanimal - Thanks for the tips! Yep, I'm in an apartment. Now that you've explained it, that makes sense that it's probably from me and my SO breathing at night. The windows in other parts of the apartment don't get the condensation in the mornings, so breathing being the cause would explain that. I will see if my SO would be okay leaving the bedroom door open at night, but I suspect they won't be and I'm not sure I'd want to do that either. I don't mind wiping the windows each morning, so maybe I'll stick with that as a solution. Thanks for the other options you listed too!

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mountainFrugal
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Re: mathiverse's journal

Post by mountainFrugal »

My 2cents having not read through the rest of your journal in detail. If you assume that eventually you will not want to program for a living what will you come back to if you burn out on software development? Developing other parts of yourself and hobbies that are intrinsically rewarding might have a much higher (personal) ROI 5 years from now than grinding for an even larger pile of money. Reduce expenses, save more and a be done in short order while still exploring other ideas/hobbies with your old job. If you do not have your spending in check, you might also be slowly experiencing lifestyle inflation and not really know it. If you have a certain goal in mind for retirement and a set of projects that you want to accomplish after retiring, then grind away to get there faster. If you do not have anything in mind after retiring... this is my point. The money flow is easy for you and you could solve it in a few years if you reduced how much you are spending even with your old job.

Edit: You could also grind through it, make that extra money, and have a HUGE impact on many people's lives by donating directly to people in poverty: https://www.givedirectly.org/

Scott 2
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Re: mathiverse's journal

Post by Scott 2 »

IMO you don't want to study, because you don't want the full time lifestyle. The money (objectively, it is a life changing amount) makes you feel obligated. I'd resist too. There's a reason they need to pay outsized salaries. I cannot find a good argument for skipping the prep though. If you are following that path, it's a huge return.

The best I can do - the marginal tax rate on your next $100k will hit hard. It's closer to $50k in pocket. If your employer is paying 33% more for services, you may be held to a higher standard, with less opportunity for negotiating quality of life concessions.

Would your old employer consider an 80% FTE relationship, where you still get benefits, but only work 32 hours per week? Could that be a decent compromise between financial goals and building the life you want long term? Certainly the on ramp at a new employer will be more demanding.


For me personally - I would not try to combine an ERE lifestyle and full time tech work. If I'm obligating myself for 40-50 hours per week, I am throwing money at other problems. Someone else can provide my healthy food, keep my space clean, organize my exercise, etc. I'd want to free as much energy as possible, for things I care about. The constraint isn't time, it's will power.

2Birds1Stone
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Re: mathiverse's journal

Post by 2Birds1Stone »

You wrote a great post in April that should help here.

viewtopic.php?p=242069#p242069

With regards to studying, if you've committed to going back to slogging it full time, might as well make the most coin for your toils.

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mountainFrugal
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Re: mathiverse's journal

Post by mountainFrugal »

mathiverse wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:08 pm
If I invested 350 of those hours in the investment curriculum and then another 150 in lowering my low hanging fruit expenses, then maybe I could at least be FI at the end of the investment in two or three months. Although my experience with expense reduction is pretty underwhelming so far. Dunno how far I'd get in only 150 hours.
How about all 500 hours in lowering your expenses? Earn more or Spend Less. 3 months of investment returns are *likely* trivial compared to permanently eliminating monthly expenses. $1 per month reduced spending ~$401 less money needed to be working for you. (from your estimate above) If you are spending ~40k/year (~3333/mo)...trimming the fat by 300-1000/mo = 120300 to 401000 less that you have to have invested at a ~3% real return. That is a pretty big range of things that could be actionable by you today.

I am fairly certain that if you spent 500 dedicated hours permanently reducing expenses you will come out ahead faster than going for a large salary and not reducing expenses.

bostonimproper
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Re: mathiverse's journal

Post by bostonimproper »

Clearly none of the motivators that “should” kick you into gear are right now (increased earnings, etc). What if you made an outlandishly hedonistic self-bargain, like “if I get $400K+, I’ll hire a personal chef for a year” or something? Or imagine how awkward it’ll be running into your interviewer at the grocery store if you bomb it.

FWIW, I was able to get my employer to increase their offer $75K by just saying I had another FANG interview coming up (which I ultimately canceled), didn’t even need another offer. So there’s a non-trivial chance you can just tell your old employer “hey I want $400K or I’m going to start interviewing around” and they’ll just give it to you. Labor in tech holds all the cards right now.

mathiverse
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Re: mathiverse's journal

Post by mathiverse »

As it turns out, the post that 2B1S reminded me about was basically what I needed to make a decision.

If I'm prioritizing mental health, physical health, and even risk taking, then I'd say taking my old company offer without spending 500 hours interviewing makes the most sense. Maximizing my income seems like the least risky approach here which is why I say that risk taking is involved. Also maybe the risk of following the new values I thought were such a good idea a few months ago instead of falling back into my old patterns.

The mental toll that interview preparation inflicts isn't worth the money I'd earn based on the information I have right now. I don't want to be optimizing for career, money, wealth, or even security when measured specifically by the size of my stash.

mathiverse
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Re: mathiverse's journal

Post by mathiverse »

bostonimproper wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:45 pm
FWIW, I was able to get my employer to increase their offer $75K by just saying I had another FANG interview coming up (which I ultimately canceled), didn’t even need another offer. So there’s a non-trivial chance you can just tell your old employer “hey I want $400K or I’m going to start interviewing around” and they’ll just give it to you. Labor in tech holds all the cards right now.
Wow, thanks for this anecdote! I'll definitely try this tactic. While I did say I won't be interviewing this time around, there's no reason I can't line up some interviews that will hopefully be cancelled in the meantime.
Last edited by mathiverse on Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mathiverse
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Re: mathiverse's journal

Post by mathiverse »

mountainFrugal wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:59 pm
I am fairly certain that if you spent 500 dedicated hours permanently reducing expenses you will come out ahead faster than going for a large salary and not reducing expenses.
I'm with you, mountainFrugal! I have several expense lowering projects lined up and my expenses have been steadily decreasing over the past three years. The reference to spending more time on the investing curriculum is more to learn how to use my capital to throw off some money in a way I'm confident about. Right now, my money is in the permanent portfolio which is really meant for wealth preservation rather than for being a stash to live off of.

I also agree that I should probably continue to expand my hobbies and identity outside of work. Although in the next few years, I'll have some kids and that will suffice for a while, probably. I hoping that my return to work this time won't fully subsume my hobbies. It shouldn't. My biggest problem last time I burned out was that I took on finishing my undergrad degree while working full time. That was too much of a commitment for me. I have a few other strategies and tactics to keep myself from being overwhelmed with work this time around. I'll have to see how that goes. I can always quit if it turns out that I truly can't manage it.
Last edited by mathiverse on Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mathiverse
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Re: mathiverse's journal

Post by mathiverse »

Scott 2 wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:45 pm
For me personally - I would not try to combine an ERE lifestyle and full time tech work. If I'm obligating myself for 40-50 hours per week, I am throwing money at other problems. Someone else can provide my healthy food, keep my space clean, organize my exercise, etc. I'd want to free as much energy as possible, for things I care about. The constraint isn't time, it's will power.
If I can't maintain my current level of ERE lifestyle at my job, then I don't think I'd keep the job.

I haven't gone full ERE, so I'd say my lifestyle wouldn't be too hard to maintain with full time work and there are some things I can't buy for reasonable prices. For example, I have not found a good way to get healthy food other than cooking it myself. I prefer to have control over the oils, meat quality, and additives that I can't really have if I order out. The realization about the superiority of my own cooking is something that developed over the last six months while I've been home and able to spend a decent amount of effort on cooking and learning about nutrition and healthy foods. I want to be able to maintain that or I'd quit or downsize my job or change my job because the health toll would be too high for me. I *think* I could maintain that at my old job on my old team assuming I don't let careerism get in the way of setting clear boundaries at work.

Crusader
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Re: mathiverse's journal

Post by Crusader »

^ +1

Great and inspiring insights!

mathiverse
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Re: mathiverse's journal

Post by mathiverse »

ERE Mastermind Group Update

Plan for next two weeks
  • Update price book to include prices from grocery store around the corner from my house
  • Decide on parameters for challenge to eat through my pantry and then begin the challenge

ERE Progression

Goal for 2022: Spend $24,000 or less excluding utilities, health care costs, and gifts to my family.

Since my rent is $1250 a month, this means I want to spend $750 a month or less on everything else. It seems doable based on my tracked expenses from the last few months and from January 2022.

As I've mentioned lately, I have some projects planned that are intended to lower my expenses. These projects are intended to support the above goal for my 2022 expenses.

Project: Lower Food Expenses

My biggest budget buster is my food expenses. Over the last seven months, I've gone from eating out most days to eating out < 5 times a month. Now I can focus on optimizing my grocery expenses. In order to do that, I've started creating a price book for my new location.

Future Tasks for Lowering my Food Budget (in no particular order)
  • Add food prices for stores within walking distance of my house to my price book
  • Eat through my pantry to get rid of weird stuff
  • Look into ways of changing my normal food menu to optimize for cost while maintaining other factors (taste, health, etc)
  • Potentially end all grocery delivery (to avoid delivery fees) or optimize my use of grocery delivery (once a month instead of once a week)
  • Learn more recipes so I can eat based on what's for sale
  • Implement strategies to reduce food waste
  • Look for opportunities to buy in bulk for a lower price
  • Learn to make foods that have a good payback (eg make bread instead of buying it, make beef jerky instead of buying it, yogurt (?), etc)
I can find more ideas by rereading books on frugality.

I think I'll get an immediate improvement by first eating through my pantry and making the price book. Once I've done that, if my expenses for food are still higher than $300 per month, then I'll see what would have the next greatest effect. If they are less than $300 per month, then I'll see about lowering my other expenses if there are any that are out of hand.

Buy Nothing Period

I am in a thirty day Buy Nothing period that ends on February 13, 2022. If I stop buying random other things, then my recurring expenses are well below my $750 per month threshold.

I still buy food and pay bills. Other spending is not allowed. I have no limit on my food spending right now, but if I extend the no buy period beyond February 13, 2022, then I think I'd add a limit since by then I'll have a better grasp on what a good stretch goal for a food spending budget would be.

I did a bit of thinking about my usual unnecessary purchases. The resulting list is below.

What Poorly Allocated Spending Do I Have?
  • Food that gets thrown away
    • Due to not liking the food when I thought I would
    • Due to rot
    • Due to a change in my dietary habits that excludes the food
  • Components of projects that I didn't finish (Examples: soap making, microgreen kit, camping gear, self watering gardening container supplies)
  • Tools that are used rarely (Technically I get some use out of them, but there are many tools I own that I may never use again or that I may not use again for years)
  • Books that I don't read or that I read and don't want to keep
  • Household supplies that I later decide I no longer want to use because I don't like them or they are unsuitable for this or that reason
  • To replace something that stops working that I don't want to debug or try to find non-expense-causing alternatives for (Example: My food scale isn't working lately. I want to buy a new one and the only thing that stopped me was that I'm in the middle of a no buy period. Instead, I managed to fix it today.)
  • Sports equipment I didn't end up using
  • Transportation costs due to bad planning (last minute tickets, Uber rides when I could have walked given an earlier departure time)
I may be missing some things on this list. What things do you buy that you later realize was poorly allocated spending?

shaz
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Re: mathiverse's journal

Post by shaz »

mathiverse wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:46 pm
[*] Household supplies that I later decide I no longer want to use because I don't like them or they are unsuitable for this or that reason.

...

I may be missing some things on this list. What things do you buy that you later realize was poorly allocated spending?
I have the same problem with hair care products/toiletries/makeup.

Autotroph
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Re: mathiverse's journal

Post by Autotroph »

I keep my food expenses low by using extra virgin olive oil (EVOO) in basically all of my meals. It's a great source of good fats, affordable, and tastes good. The price to calorie ratio is very good. Some sourdough bread and a bowl of EVOO with your preferred seasonings (e.g. rosemary, thyme, basil, etc) and you have a great meal that hits all your macronutrients (carbs, fats, and protein) while also providing some great micronutrients from the bread (e.g. Iron). I usually eat some fruit afterward (mainly an apple and/or banana) to get some sweets and more micronutrients.
I buy mine from Trader Joe's, although once I replace my stolen bike I plan to visit the Boudin bakery here. It's also quick and easy to make -- just toast the bread. I have lost a lot of weight using this strategy too, as it keeps me feeling satiated for much longer.
When designing my diet, I found it easiest to first determine where to get my macros -- carbs/protein from sourdough bread, fats from EVOO, and additional protein from dairy (mostly non-fat greek yogurt). This is the bulk of one's diet, and therefore the costliest part.

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Re: mathiverse's journal

Post by AxelHeyst »

re: poorly allocated spending: subscription services that I either don’t use, don’t use enough, or have completely forgotten about. Netflix, spotify, entertainment subscriptions; pro level services like dropbox that with some shuffling i can drop back to free tier; and the stuff i signed up for five years ago and wouldn’t notice if I wasn’t now scrutinizing all my charges.

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Re: mathiverse's journal

Post by jacob »

Some suggestions...
mathiverse wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:46 pm
  • Learn more recipes so I can eat based on what's for sale
Use https://www.supercook.com/ (fun fact: this is one of the few... or maybe the only URL that's referenced in the ERE book. It's crazy/wonderful how they're still around.)
mathiverse wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:46 pm
  • Due to rot
Vermicompost?
mathiverse wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:46 pm
  • Books that I don't read or that I read and don't want to keep
https://littlefreelibrary.org/ourmap/
mathiverse wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:46 pm
  • To replace something that stops working that I don't want to debug or try to find non-expense-causing alternatives for (Example: My food scale isn't working lately. I want to buy a new one and the only thing that stopped me was that I'm in the middle of a no buy period. Instead, I managed to fix it today.)
I was thinking that a dedicated MMG to this issue might be worthwhile. A lot of this is based on experiental knowledge (not written down). Then report back to viewtopic.php?t=9739 with results.
mathiverse wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:46 pm
  • Sports equipment I didn't end up using
https://www.playitagainsports.com/ has worked for me. Or maybe consider viewtopic.php?t=6255 ?

mathiverse
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Re: mathiverse's journal

Post by mathiverse »

Thanks for all the advice everyone!

I'd also add overpaying for the same thing I could get for cheaper or free as a common cause of my poorly allocated spending.

mathiverse
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Re: mathiverse's journal

Post by mathiverse »

January 2022 Update - ERE Progression
mathiverse wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:46 pm
Goal for 2022: Spend $24,000 or less excluding utilities, health care costs, and gifts to my family.
Total Personal Expenses (w/ caveats above)
$3,107.74

Let's look at how that breaks down.

Code: Select all

Rent			$1,250.00
Food - Groceries	$956.09
Travel			$328.33
Clothing		$144.95
Food - Eating out	$124.17
Household supplies	$108.28
Books			$95.00
Internet		$69.99
Cell phone		$30.93
---
Total			$3,107.74
Rent

No change expected for the rest of the year. The good news is that we renewed our lease recently and the landlord didn't increase our rent from the previous year.

Food - Groceries

See my previous post for how I'm planning to lower this in the future.

Travel

I bought plane tickets for an upcoming trip. The trip is the last week of February, so the remaining expenses for this trip are yet to come. I planned with my friend to get accommodations with a kitchen, so my plan is to cook most of my meals on the trip to keep costs down.

I haven't yet planned the remainder of trips for the year, so this category of expenses is one to keep an eye out for in the coming year.

Clothing

I bought some winter boots because my sneakers didn't keep my feet warm enough when walking in the wind in the winter.

I could have done better on this purchase.

Some tactics I could have applied, but didn't:
  • I could have bought used instead of retail. I kept planning to go to the thrift store or look at online used goods sales, but I didn't.
  • I could have planned ahead. I knew I wanted to get boots for this winter since last winter. I could have set up alerts on online sites for good deals on boots my size or asked on freecycle or something like that.
  • I wonder if doubling up on wool socks would have been sufficient here? Did I need boots?
  • If I was buying retail, maybe I could have found a better deal. Coupons, sales, simply getting cheaper boots?
Food - Eating out

I ate out four times early in the month. I ordered food delivery because I wanted cookies and other snacks. After ordering out those four times, I found substitutes and I learned how to make a few homemade desserts that satisfied my desires (whipped cream, caramel, sweet coconut snacks). The no buy constraint that I added after ordering out really helped with the motivation to find a suitable alternative, btw.

Household supplies

I bought: bleach, two baking sheets, a cloud storage subscription (cost for 2 years), and masks.

I think the improvements I could have made to buy the baking sheets are similar to the ones that I could have used for the boots. Maybe I could have found free or cheap baking sheets instead of ordering the first suitable ones I found on Amazon.

Comparison shopping for the masks and bleach may have yielded a few dollars of savings, but I think I did well enough there.

In the future, I can unsubscribe from the cloud storage if I become less dependent on my phone. Getting that subscription was driven by losing my phone and realizing the impact of the data loss had I not found it soon after that. I don't plan to do anything about this for now, but it's an idea for later.

Books

I plan to buy very few additional books this year by making better use of my library card. I don't expect this category to be very high for the rest of the year.

Internet

I may have to call my internet company and make sure my internet bill won't be increasing in the coming year. It'll be a year in February. I'll add that to my to do list.

Cell phone

I have no plans to change this right now since it's low enough for now. It may be a good idea to do the search for a cheaper plan sometime this year though.

Wins
  • This was almost a fail. I forgot to cancel a subscription that had auto-renew turned on. Luckily, I caught the charges the day they were made (ie the day the auto-renew was scheduled for). When I called them and told them I didn't want the subscriptions to be renewed, the company cancelled the charges without any fuss or pushback. Phew.
  • I fixed my food scale! I mentioned this in a previous post, but this felt really good.
  • I started a price book for my new locale.

basuragomi
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Re: mathiverse's journal

Post by basuragomi »

Waterproof galoshes, insulated overshoes, gaiters and hiking crampons can transform any shoe into a winter boot. It's a modular approach, so all the gear can transfer from shoe to shoe for a lifetime. You can find each of those items for $20 or less.

I'd love to see a breakdown of your grocery spending, because it's the equivalent of 9 months of food for me! I'm thinking of starting a dedicated "spend less on groceries" thread for this though.

mathiverse
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Re: mathiverse's journal

Post by mathiverse »

basuragomi wrote:
Sun Jan 30, 2022 12:05 pm
Waterproof galoshes, insulated overshoes, gaiters and hiking crampons can transform any shoe into a winter boot. It's a modular approach, so all the gear can transfer from shoe to shoe for a lifetime. You can find each of those items for $20 or less.
Wow, thanks for the info, basuragomi! After reading your message, I returned the boots to the store, so I suppose I can update my January spend to be lower. It looks like I should cover my needs with insulated overshoes, hiking crampons, and waterproof galoshes. After a brief search, I noticed you can get all of those things for more or less money. Do you happen to know if there are meaningful differences between the cheapest and the more expensive versions that I should look out for?
basuragomi wrote:
Sun Jan 30, 2022 12:05 pm
I'd love to see a breakdown of your grocery spending, because it's the equivalent of 9 months of food for me! I'm thinking of starting a dedicated "spend less on groceries" thread for this though.
It would probably be useful if I had a look at the breakdown of grocery costs myself. I have most of the receipts available online or lying around. I don't think I have any particular reason to spend that much beyond not watching my grocery spending at all. Also I don't think it'll be hard to cut that amount down to $300 - $400 by not overbuying, buying less/no processed/premade food, and by using a price book. I might save the detailed breakdown for next month to spare myself the embarrassment this month and to hopefully get more useful advice rather than the likely low hanging fruit that will be evident in this month's spending. I'll think about it. (EDIT: I added the breakdown below despite the embarrassment. :) )
Last edited by mathiverse on Tue Feb 01, 2022 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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