Early Retirement Extreme Forums

I intend this thread to be the more practical twin to this thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10864. Here I will try to discuss and show how the theory in that thread (and elsewhere) can be applied. I figure this thread would be a good place for anyone to analyze the types of historical figures and potentially even fictional characters. I chose the skills and tools sub-forum, because I tend to think of typing models as tools only effective in the hands of a skilled user with a purpose in mind. Systems biology and social science are very messy so there will always be some room for interpretation. There is no final or definite frame for dealing with this level of reality, therefore I expect that everyone will have their own ways of using the information presented here. Hopefully, this thread can help alleviate some frustration associated with the learning process without producing a single standardization.

The following overview could be thought of as a forest where seeds can be planted to develop into a personalized model that only establishes the necessary environmental associations to thrive. Such a frame allows communication without completely closing off novel associations. What is stable or not will emerge from use and disuse. Some associations will prove easy to identify and communicate; others will not.

Personality ~ patterns of behavior ~ models of entire agents
INTP ~ Ti-Ne ~ logician, theorist, designer ~ linguist ~ reads/writes encyclopedias for fun ~ can have slow response time to sudden, unexpected changes in environment
ENTP ~ Ne-Ti ~ debater, explorer, inventor ~ lawyer ~ argues as a learning tactic ~ hard for them to narrow down what is important
ISFJ ~ Si-Fe ~ defender, guardian, ~ susceptible to hoarding ~ usually well liked ~ respect personal boundaries
ESFJ ~ Fe-Si ~ consul, supporter ~ laughs when you laugh, frowns when you frown ~ tend to keep track of the life story of those around them
ISTP ~ Ti-Se ~ virtuoso, operator, craftsman ~ obsessed with hand-tools ~ high potential to become elite athletes
ESTP ~ Se-Ti ~ entrepreneur, promoter ~ very resistant to anxiety ~ unlikely to attach sentimental value to objects ~ may have trouble respecting the sensitivity of others
INFJ ~ Ni-Fe ~ foreseer, sage ~ never satisfied with anything ~ perfectionist ~ high potential for making lasting social change
ENFJ ~ Fe-Ni ~ protagonist, mentor ~ most recognizable face at any party yet will likely forget the face of everyone there
INTJ ~ Ni-Te ~ architect, mastermind, strategist ~ scientist ~ very flat time-discount curve ~ life is chess to them
ENTJ ~ Te-Ni ~ conqueror, commander, mobilizer ~ gets grumpy when others disrupt their workflow ~ probably a proud workaholic
ISFP ~ Fi-Se ~ adventurer, artist, composer ~ live and let live ~ hard time seeing how life could be different
ESFP ~ Se-Fi ~ entertainer, motivator, presenter ~ very optimistic ~ susceptible to framing ~ low expectations ~ disappointment is fleeting
ISTJ ~ Si-Te ~ logistician, inspector ~ manages finances and personal property in detail ~ suspicious of framing
ESTJ ~ Te-Si ~ executive, implementer, supervisor ~ enjoys micromanaging subordinates ~ can make excellent teachers in a class setting
INFP ~ Fi-Ne ~ mediator, harmonizer, clarifier ~ has an expansive inner fantasy world that they cannot describe easily ~ can care too much
ENFP ~ Ne-Fi ~ campaigner, advocate ~ trust complete strangers ~ know how to trigger others when needed

Function ~ mutually exclusive ~ requires allocation
Se ~ improvisation, physical, environment, impulsive, initiating, checking items off a list
Si ~ memory, past, particular, body, comfort, building a list
Ne ~ wonder, metaphysical, brainstorming, what if
Ni ~ perception, future, universal, environmental observation, source of willpower
Te ~ efficacy, operational, statistical validation, efficiency, object interfacing, following/giving instructions
Ti ~ accuracy, generation, logical validation, mental observation, labeling/naming, object essence
Fe ~ harmony, people interfacing, emotional expressiveness
Fi ~ valuation, selection, subjective, importance, empathy, agent essence

Quadra ~ social synchronization ~ from socionics school of personality theory https://www.sociotype.com/socionics/quadras/
Alpha ~ Si,Ne,Ti,Fe ~ NTP,SFJ ~ judicious, merry, democratic ~ research, technology, accommodation, insurance ~ inclusive of outsiders
Beta ~ Se,Ni,Ti,Fe ~ STP,NFJ ~ decisive, merry, aristocratic ~ military, police,trades, team sports ~ enjoy competitions
Delta ~ Si,Ne,Te,Fi ~ NFP,STJ ~ judicious, serious, aristocratic ~ healthcare, education,management, church ~ enjoy traditions
Gamma ~ Se,Ni,Te,Fi ~ NTJ,SFP ~ decisive, serious, democratic ~ investing, self-employment, solo sports ~ prefer small groups

Temperament ~ task synchronization
NT ~ analysts, intellectuals, rationalists, promethean ~ truth ~ epistemology
NF ~ diplomats, idealists, apollonian ~ values ~ ethics
SJ ~ sentinels, guardians, epimethean ~ rules ~ authority
SP ~ explorers, artisans, dionysian ~ slack ~ ability

Interaction Style ~ communication compatibility ~ all temperaments are represented for each
In-Charge ~ structure ~ stabilizing ~ regular updating
Chart-the-Course ~ finisher ~ strategic ~ irregular updating
Get-Things-Going ~ starter ~ innovative ~ sparse information
Behind-the-Scenes ~ background ~ patient ~ dense information

Structure ~ potential links to math and physiology
S ~ fields, distance, impact, measurement, sub-conscious, handled by impulses and primitive biology
N ~ graphs, connectivity, points of interest, small world network
T ~ cycles, repetition, directed in time, large world network
F ~ attractors/repulsors, stability, construction/deconstruction of graphs/cycles
e ~ plural, many, seek, external
i ~ singular, few, hone, internal

Axis ~ negative feedback process ~ self-stabilizing
Se-Ni ~ convergence, future integration, present possibilities, goal orientation
Si-Ne ~ divergence, past integration, future possibilities, routine orientation
Te-Fi ~ personalization, self-interest, independent operation, generalization
Ti-Fe ~ translation, collective-interest, interdependent operation, specialization

Loop ~ positive feedback process ~ inherently unstable
Si-Ti ~ condition, generative evolution, reference, r-selection strategy
Si-Fi ~ impression, selective evolution, symbiosis, K-selection strategy
Ni-Ti ~ confirmation, filling gaps, interpolation
Ni-Fi ~ supposition, growing a frame with gaps, elasticity
Se-Te ~ configure, maintenance of an organization that dissipates, equilibrium
Se-Fe ~ support, accommodating the sensitivities of others, escalation/de-escalation
Ne-Te ~ design, search for a possible organization, extrapolation
Ne-Fe ~ advise, search for a solution to common problems, frame

Operation ~ atomic behavioral observations
Action ~ Se,Ne ~ doing, flow, activities
Knowledge ~ Si,Ni ~ understanding, fitting, puzzles
Interface ~ Te,Fe ~ communicating, responsive, channels
Deliberation ~ Ti,Fi ~ searching, disruption in flow, unknowns

DISC
D ~ Dominance ~ accomplishing results, bottom-line, confidence, direct, decisive, strong ego, problem solving, risk taking, self-starter ~ Se,Ni
I ~ Influence ~ influencing/persuading, openness, relationships, enthusiasm, trusting, optimistic, impulsive, emotional ~ F
S ~ Steadiness ~ cooperation, sincerity, dependability, possessive, steady, predictable, understanding, friendly ~ Si,Ne
C ~ Conscientiousness ~ quality, accuracy, expertise, competency, analytical, compliant, careful, systematic ~ T

OCEAN
Openness ~ exploration, seek novelty ~ negative correlation with disgust, positive correlation with IQ
Conscientiousness ~ success oriented, follow-though with goals ~ positive correlation with career advancement
Extraversion ~ social energy, self-expression ~ negative correlation with secrecy/privacy
Agreeableness ~ compliance, rule following ~ negative correlation with legal issues
Neuroticism ~ emotional stability, anxiety, depression ~ positive correlation with mental health issues

Enneagram ~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enneagram_of_Personality
1 ~ perfectionist, reformer ~ desire integrity ~ anger from corruptness
2 ~ helper, advisor ~ desire love ~ shame from abandonment
3 ~ achiever, performer ~ desire being valued ~ shame from worthlessness
4 ~ romantic, individualist ~ desire uniqueness ~ shame from loosing identity
5 ~ investigator, observer ~ desire competence ~ fear incapability
6 ~ loyalist, skeptic ~ desire support ~ fear being lost
7 ~ enthusiast, visionary ~ desire satisfaction ~ fear deprivation
8 ~ challenger, protector ~ desire self-sufficiency ~ anger from lack of control
9 ~ peacemaker, mediator ~ desire harmony ~ anger from fragmentation

Sources/Influences
David Keirsey
Linda Berens
Eric from TwFP
Michael Pierce
Socionics
MBTI
DiSC
OCEAN
Jung
Enneagram
Several websites
.. and more I cannot remember easily. Many of the associations I generated off the top of my head.

System 1 Typing
Quick and imprecise. Requires extensive practice to become accurate. A more personalized frame allows for quicker validation. Forces typist to work with incomplete information and helps set priorities for future frame development.

System 2 Typing
Slow and precise. Improved by utilizing a ledger where the quantity of observations can be recorded. The ledger could span across multiple levels of resolution and be cross-validated after enough data is collected using equivalencies between them.

So, my BF who I have typed as ESTJ , made a rude , irritable comment to me this morning. He said “Why are you rubbing your leg like that? Do you have Tourette’s?” Based on what I have read about interactions between ESTJ and ENTP, I did not choose to respond in my usual manner which would be either cheerful/ nerdy/ oblivious/curious “Why was I rubbing my leg?” or hurt/defensive (tertiary Fe?) “Why are you such an asshole?” Instead I attempted to combine my already strong A(assertive) with a rise towards J in dominant energy. So I adjusted my voice to lower register and replied very firmly “ Stop your nagging, woman. I do what I want.” And it totally worked! Except I immediately felt a bit guilty for being so unkind and I was also so amused with myself I couldn’t hold the dominant pose for more than a minute.

7Wannabe5 wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:08 am

“Why are you rubbing your leg like that? Do you have Tourette’s?”

I would have gone with something of the order of "Fuck you maggot dick breathe in your grandmother's dead asshole" which would serve both as an appropriate response to the first question and an affirmative response to the second.

Will continue fixing and updating first post. Accidentally mixed up delta and gamma quadras earlier. Tonight I will probably write a flood of posts here on whatever comes to mind.

@Jason That would be an excellent response in a beta quadra setting.

That's exactly what I was thinking.

It would be interesting to see a mapping from the functions to the DISC-model as well. DISC is already mapped to the four temperaments (choleric, etc.). Also, it's mapped to MBTI (INTJ is purple or red/blue, for example).

If I'm remembering correctly, I got a lot of use out of the DiSC report. Possibly the main use was to give it to my bosses. It had a section with great advice on working with / managing me.

Added bare-bone sections on DISC, OCEAN, and Enneagram that can be expanded upon.

Here is a good video introduction to Enneagram that shows how progression is primarily lateral (i.e. 9 <-> 1 <-> 2 <-> 3 and so forth). Moving from 1 to 7 is less likely than from 1 to 9 for instance, hence the idea of wings where each type is moving towards one of the two adjacent types. There are also three different categories (heart/soul ~ 234, head/mind ~ 567, body/gut ~ 891).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJJp-z_wkBk&t=523s

You can specify what your dominate type is in each category; this is called your tritype. My tritype is 593 which is nicknamed the thinker (primary investigator, secondary peacemaker, tertiary achiever).

Here is a system one typing list of fictional characters:

INTP
Gale Boetticher - Breaking Bad
Scarecrow - Batman Begins
Anthony Hopkins in many of his roles
Bran Stark - GoT
Neo - The Matrix
Big Head - Silicon Valley

ENTP
Saul Goodman - Breaking Bad
Joker - The Dark Knight
Tony Stark - Iron Man
Kevin Spacey in many of his roles
Erlich Bachman - Silicon Valley
Rick - Rick and Morty

ISFJ
Eddard Stark - GoT

ESFJ
Margaery Tyrell - GoT

ISTP
Mike Ehrmantraut - Breaking Bad
Ryan Gosling in 'Drive' and 'The Place Beyond the Pines'
Aria Stark - GoT
Clegane brothers - GoT
Gilfoyle - Silicon Valley

ESTP
Hank Schrader - Breaking Bad
Jason Bourne
Tom Cruise in many of his roles

INFJ
Gandalf - Lord of the Rings
Bruce Wayne - The Dark Knight
Sherlock - BBC
Will Hunting - Good Will Hunting
Daenerys Targaryen - GoT
Jon Snow - GoT

ENFJ
Melisandre - GoT
Dumbledore - Harry Potter
Morpheus - The Matrix

ISTJ
Skyler White - Breaking Bad
Sansa Stark - GoT
Stannis Baratheon - GoT
Laurie Bream - Silicon Valley
Gus Fring - Breaking Bad
Tywin Lannister - GoT
Chuck McGill - Better Call Saul

ESTJ
Ra's al Ghul - Batman Begins
Captin America

INFP
Frodo Baggins - Lord of the Rings

ENFP
Samwise Gamgee - Lord of the Rings
Ron Weasley - Harry Potter

INTJ
Walter White - Breaking Bad
House - House MD
Draco Malfoy - Harry Potter
Saruman - Lord of the Rings
Dinesh - Silicon Valley
Peter Gregory - Silicon Valley
Petyr Baelish - GoT

ENTJ
Doctor Strange
Thanos
Ramsay Bolton - GoT
Gavin Belson - Silicon Valley

ISFP
Jesse Pinkman - Breaking Bad
Harry Potter

ESFP
Bronn - GoT
Jake Sully - Avatar

Typing fictional characters can sometimes lead to interesting paradoxes and this is helpful in establishing a truly universal model. Fiction can present test cases that lie at the edge or beyond what a human is capable of. Such extremes help form theoretical poles that ground a frame in place. Even fiction is limited by physics/logic, so any imaginable reality is a possible reality. If you can simulate it, then how can you justify its non-existence without deconstructing the ideas of 'simulation' and/or 'existence'?

That's true. For instance, Jane Austen described Anne Elliot, the protagonist of "Persuasion", as being "too good." (ISFJ?) However, according to this site, Fitzwilliam Darcy is easy to peg as INTJ.

https://www.theodysseyonline.com/austen-characters-mbti

Unfortunately, the only example of female ENTP in Austen's works is suggested to be the anti-heroine Mary Crawford who holds the avocation and moral code of the prudish, earnest clergyman Edmund Bertram in disrespect. I always believed Emma might be towards ENTP due to her tendency towards light-hearted, rather careless, experimentation with the social life of those around her, but the site tags her as ENFJ.

Mark Twain, being an ENTP himself, creates some very realistic portrayals of the type. For instance, Tom Sawyer's behavior in pawning off white-washing job and skipping school to head off on adventure is classic. This is why ENTPs are the most likely of the Rationals to not do well academically. This sort of thing sometimes causes ENTPs to be wrongfully described as "lazy", but this only holds when an ENTP is faced with an obviously possible (b-o-r-i-n-g) task (such as any direct path towards FI measured by SWR steps.) When challenged with tasks that seem impossible (Bet you can't....)or are full of unknowns (Where does this cave lead...)we can be super-energetic. I would also note that, IMO, Saul Goodman comes off pretty good compared to whatever terrible type (ISTJ?) his older brother is in "Better Call Saul."

One thread I was reading on the topic of ESTJ/ENTP relationships said that for a female ENTP to allow herself to be in the follow to a male ESTJ is the equivalent of "going through menopause." Since I am currently actually going through menopause while in relationship with a male ESTJ and residing on his turf, it is pretty clear why I am in a serious schlump. OTOH, I feel like maybe there is some work I am meant to do while in this holding cell. Like I can't just leave, I gotta find a key first. Dunno.

7Wannabe5 wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 01, 2019 6:21 am

Unfortunately, the only example of female ENTP in Austen's works is suggested to be the anti-heroine Mary Crawford who holds the avocation and moral code of the prudish, earnest clergyman Edmund Bertram in disrespect. I always believed Emma might be towards ENTP due to her tendency towards light-hearted, rather careless, experimentation with the social life of those around her, but the site tags her as ENFJ.

While it has some entertainment value to sort the Austen characters into the MTBI personalities I don't know how it holds up with today's framework. People were very restricted then and often could not act according to their true personalities.

I have always felt some kinship with Mary Crawford. I thought it was because we both play the harp and have a pretty cutting wit, but given this new information, there might be some more similarities :) I love how she constantly pokes at (holier-than-thou, stick-in-the-mud) Edmund and exposes his weaknesses. That she herself appears not so much to advantage in this is mostly due to the weird social norms of that time. Some of it might be interpreted as unkindness, but to me, she is only pretty blunt and too logical for what is socially acceptable for women, even more so at this time. She is naturally endlessly fascinated by Edmund's character, so unlike her own. But ultimately they would have been very unhappy together, so it was good that Edmund ended up with the ever-patient and understanding Fanny ;)

Anyway, I very much enjoy this thread and learn a lot. I feel better if I can put things and people into boxes and put labels on the boxes, it helps me to not get overwhelmed in this crazy world. Surely there will be situations where this is limiting, but all in all, it works well for me. So further study helps me to create more accurate boxes :)

@daylen, what is your MBTI if I may ask? I suppose that certain types are more drawn to this kind of categorizing people than others. The fact that 7wb5 and I are all over this kind of threads suggest that ENTPs do enjoy it :)

@7w5 I do not know about that other stuff, but Chuck McGill fits ISTJ (Saul's brother). Fe PoLR seems apparent given his reclusive nature and detail orientation (dominate Si). I will look more into it.

@horsewoman I am an INTP-A. Typically, introverted and thinking types are more into categorization of personality because they do not interact (E) as often with people (F). Hence, a model of humans is useful in a reality where that system has an impactful effect on the environment.

I'm still not sure if the "E" really discribes me well, after all it came out only at 54%. The extroversion comes in short, violent bursts that leave me exhausted, but somehow I need to get it out of my system now and then. I was really amazed how closely the test pictured my conflicted views on extroversion/introversion.

horsewoman wrote:People were very restricted then and often could not act according to their true personalities.

True. Of course, it also might be the case that the naturally holier-than-thou, stick-in-the-mud types might feel oppressed during more free-wheeling eras. I was watching the movie "Goonies" with some alternative high school students today and one of them said "I think this was rated G in the 1980s, because people were less sensitive then."

ETA:

Yeah, I am pretty close to XNTP too. I wonder if many extreme E - ENTPS would be attracted to this forum? Classic ENTP is supposed to be more of an easy-come, easy-go type financially. Since I am quite a bit more fluidly social now than when I was younger, I can kind of see why this would be true further up the continuum. Why worry about money, when all you have to do is combine ideas with people to get some more? IOW, for a very E-ENTP, money would be much more flow than stock in lifestyle systems diagram. Unfortunately, the more bookworm type eNTP is less likely to generate flow of funds interacting with fictional characters

Wait what!? I thought Gandalf was an intp. Maybe he is a infj from the movies, but in the books he seems kind of like an intp, though I can see it and I have not done in depth analysis.

I have not read the books, but Gandalf on the show fits infj. Notice how he is almost always either leading, planning, or just observing in the background (Ni). He always knows what is going on (Ni), what to do about it (Se), who to talk to (Fe), and how to find more information if needed (Ti). His Ti is not apparent enough to be an intp and he uses very little Ne, Si, Fi, or Te. The books could be different.

His transformation into Gandalf the white is basically Ni-hibernation mode. He even forgets his name.

@daylen:

You ( your "voice") remind me very much of my DS31 INTP, so I think you ought to read the series, because it was one of my son's childhood favorites, even though he was usually reading history, classics and linguistics. He says things to me like "You are obviously quite intelligent, but your brain does not work efficiently." or "Thank you for giving me a fun childhood."

Since I raised an INTP from birth, it has been my observation that the INTP (and, therefore, somewhat or intermittently also the low e -ENTP) is naturally frugal simply because most of what an INTP wants (piles of books, one large meal per day of something like an entire pizza, internet access, maybe a dog, best friend or SO) is not very expensive on the modern market. My DD28 who is something like eNXj (reminds me most of Edith Keeler "voice" on the forum) is not as naturally frugal, in the sense of having no urge to go shopping or acquire "stuff", but is very crafty, self-sufficient and competent. For instance, if my children were each given $100 as Xmas present from grandparents, my daughter's money would be gone within 3 days (as soon as she had opportunity to interact with her friends), but I would find my son's money still in an envelope on top of a very neatly aligned, dust-covered pile of books 6 months later. And, I recently had to advise my son on how to purchase an appropriate jacket to wear to his sister's wedding, whereas my daughter spent a year making beautiful intricate origami bouquets of flowers for herself and all of her bride's people instead of spending money on fresh flowers. It's weird when your kids are both "older soul" types than you are yourself.

I have tried to read fiction several times, and I can never finish. I always get side tracked. Perhaps I just haven't been trying the right books, so maybe I can get into LoTR. I like shows since I can watch them while I do miscellaneous tasks such as writing, making diagrams, reading non-fiction, hobby electronics, and so forth. Mostly I just watch the same stuff over and over, but each time my impression grows deeper and so it seems different. I have a 1TB hard drive filled with hundreds of movies and shows. It makes for an excellent data-set for tuning personality models (books are denser in words but non-verbal information tells a story of its own).