May-December Relationships, In-Vitro Fertilization, Freezing Eggs, and Other Considerations

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Sclass
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Re: May-December Relationships, In-Vitro Fertilization, Freezing Eggs, and Other Considerations

Post by Sclass » Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:45 pm

Hey good luck with this. I’ve read the entire thread and I’m blown away and cringing.

I’m really looking forward to hearing how this works out. So much if it just sounds strange.

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Re: May-December Relationships, In-Vitro Fertilization, Freezing Eggs, and Other Considerations

Post by Eureka » Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:28 am

slowtraveler wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:05 am
Then, move to Thailand or somewhere else where you are percieved as exotic/high smv and you'll have lots of girls to date.
This is irrelevant advice as MI is looking for a woman with genes that will result in a tall child.

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Re: May-December Relationships, In-Vitro Fertilization, Freezing Eggs, and Other Considerations

Post by jennypenny » Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:14 am

I feel like we get (sometimes woefully uninformed) people asking for advice on a range of topics, and generally the questions are treated respectfully. No one is expected to know everything about education, investing, money management, gardening, etc. I'm not sure why this topic is any different. MI isn't a new member and he contributes frequently to other threads, so it's not like he's trolling. We all have to learn things somewhere (let's face it -- if we'd all been born with a clue about money/lifestyle management we wouldn't have needed jacob's book and wouldn't be here).

I was really pleased to see some of the more experienced guys trying to nudge MI in the right direction and point out some of the bigger flaws in his approach/thinking. The thread had moved in a positive direction and people were trying to help him ... which is why seeing women interrupt that conversation just to shit on him or his ideas seemed rude and counterproductive. It also reinforces stereotypes in his cohort about women in general. That doesn't seem helpful, here or in a general sense regarding attitudes towards women.

sorry to derail the thread a bit ...

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Re: May-December Relationships, In-Vitro Fertilization, Freezing Eggs, and Other Considerations

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:57 am

I agree with jennypenny. MI comes off a bit goofy, but I don't get any vibe of scare-scare level misogyny off of him, unlike some of the red pill types.

Having had more than a bit of online dating experience myself, I can state for the record that weird stuff, especially instant intimacy behaviors, can happen, even between two otherwise fairly normal or at least harmless, individuals. And it is also true that what an individual is like in person can vary a good deal from "writing voice." For instance, one time I was really regretting agreeing to meet a man, because he was so mushy-over-the-top when writing. I even purposefully dressed down for the coffee meet and greet. Then it turned out that he was 5X better looking than his photo, quite buff, and in possession of deep voice sexy, masculine grew-up-in-neighborhood-where-West-Side-Story-was-filmed accent and manner. So, then I had to hustle into the restroom ASAP to fix my look. I have also had the exact reverse experience on more than one occasion. Did I once agree to fly down to Birmingham, AL (on his dime, of course :lol: ) to meet a man for the first time? Yes, that thing happened.

Anyways, while it is true that most women are going to gag a bit if/when handed a cup full of sickly sweet, luke-warm, weak whip devotion upon short acquaintance, there are a good many masculine qualities that auto-magically come off like hot strong dark roast and serve to balance a naturally overtly romantic manner. For instance, consider many of the male characters on "This Is Us."

Also, I can hardly find fault with some of MI's comments given that I used to include the line "According to an article I read in Discover magazine while waiting for an oil change last week, it is likely that I am attractive to most human males because my waist to hip ratio is less than .75." in my dating profile. There's probably a way a nerdy guy who likes sex could signal in a manner more likely to be amusing than off-putting. I will give it a ponder. Well, duh, obviously Woody Allen before he went icky-over-the-edge.

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Re: May-December Relationships, In-Vitro Fertilization, Freezing Eggs, and Other Considerations

Post by Jason » Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:35 am

I have empathy for anyone seeking human companionship. It is necessary unto life. And I too was once certain a black leather clad Russian Spy was going to femme fatale her way into my bedroom window and tell me I was the only one who could help her save the world and we'd take off in her red Ferrari to a life of never ending intrigue and front seat 100 MPH blow jobs. I just happened to be 16 at the time and thought Spy Magazine articles were non-fiction.

But the bottom line is that OPotpourri of every 21st century single male metanarrative found under the internet sun was seasoned with an unsettling strain of "I won't name it", that disturbing enough unto itself, was made all the more unbecoming by its arm linked embrace of "woe is me." You want to cut and paste some first semester undergrad Nietchze, I can live with that. We've all done that. But if you're going to make that move, I for one, am certainly not going to provide an affectionate nudge. There's some reprehensible shit in there and all I see is doubling down. Someone wants to take a seat at the table with that, fine. Just don't think everyone is going to just listen in and then affectionately muss your hair as though its all just a bunch of misplaced naivete. 16? OK. Benny of the doubt. 32 years old? Uh fucking nuh.

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Re: May-December Relationships, In-Vitro Fertilization, Freezing Eggs, and Other Considerations

Post by Gravy Train » Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:16 am

jennypenny wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:14 am
It also reinforces stereotypes in his cohort about women in general. That doesn't seem helpful, here or in a general sense regarding attitudes towards women.
I wish I could spend more time on this response. Sorry for the rush. But, my initial reaction is just: I fail to see how being a woman/women are the problem here. I realize this is completely derailing this thread, and yeah, I was rude. I'll own that.

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Re: May-December Relationships, In-Vitro Fertilization, Freezing Eggs, and Other Considerations

Post by fiby41 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:35 am

Jason wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:35 am
we'd take off in her red Ferrari to a life of never ending intrigue and front seat 100 MPH blow jobs
If it was her ferrari who was watching the wheel :shock:

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Re: May-December Relationships, In-Vitro Fertilization, Freezing Eggs, and Other Considerations

Post by ZAFCorrection » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:37 pm

@Gravy train

It seems to be the case that when one does something that intersects with social justice topics, their personal attributes are used to bin them with a certain group and they are then taken to be an avatar of that group, having both the group's stereotypical attributes and conferring group attributes through their behavior. MI apparently has a fedora, for instance. Also, you, being a woman, are speaking for all women. There are no particular cases. It's just archetypes interacting with each other. Make sure you end up the right archetype.

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Re: May-December Relationships, In-Vitro Fertilization, Freezing Eggs, and Other Considerations

Post by George the original one » Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:17 pm

Long term success with May-December relationships is generally not likely. The one positive example on the forum is Moonbeam viewtopic.php?f=9&t=8325.

Basically, for any more than a 10-yr gap in age, being the younger person in the relationship, you need to be asking yourself how well you will enjoy becoming a caretaker at the age you will be acting out a mid-life crisis. If a caretaker role does not seem so bad, are you willing to be potentially held back in your activities because your older partner isn't as physically active?

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Re: May-December Relationships, In-Vitro Fertilization, Freezing Eggs, and Other Considerations

Post by C40 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:35 pm

fiby41 wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:17 am
[Replying to "Be present with her"}

Not necessary. Familiarity breeds contempt. My girl thinks she has been with me for 3 years and 4 months but I have only 'been present with her' for 7 days during that time period. That's giving her a day for every 6 months.
Wow. Why have you only been 'present' with her that little bit?

(for the sake of conversational clarity - let me make sure we're talking about the same thing. By "present". I(/we?) mean, generally, a type of mindfulness - having four focus/mind/attention on whatever is happening with you and her in that moment. Could include:
- Having a good conversation - listening well and seeking to understand and learn. (and the subject of conversation could by anything at all - doesn't have to be some serious 'relationship talk')
- Having nice quiet moments together and just relaxing (without having and specific interaction, though still enjoying one-another's company)
- Sex and other physical touch - while enjoying the moment, being perceptive of their responses and your subesquent actions, etc.

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Re: May-December Relationships, In-Vitro Fertilization, Freezing Eggs, and Other Considerations

Post by fiby41 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:50 pm

C40 wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:35 pm
. Why have you only been 'present' with her that little bit?
I took being present to mean being physically available for a continuous stretch of ~24 hours to count for a day.
2 years of that period she was in another city for her masters and 4 months and one week of it, I was in another country.

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Re: May-December Relationships, In-Vitro Fertilization, Freezing Eggs, and Other Considerations

Post by C40 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:52 pm

I think @Jenny has a good point. There are certain 'hot button' subjects that illicit more aggressive/extreme responses, or that illicit responses coming from having assumed/extrapolated more than just what is written. There is a difference between thinking "wow, this guy got this specific thing wrong" and "wow, something is really off with this guy"

My own internal thoughts certainly included some in the latter category. If the subject had been something 'small' like bicycle repair or cooking Indian cuisine, my/our thoughts seem to be way less likely to fall in the later category ("something wrong with that guy").

So, I wonder. Why is that? Are we thinking that on subjects that:
- Are big important life skills that everyone should have and thus it's a much bigger problem than not being able to make curry?
- We have personal trauma or annoyances related to and get triggered
- We have struggled with ourselves / grown through / just witnessed too much and are eager to respond/help?
- It is a popular thing to be offended about these days? (others: Trump/politics, pollution, bias/discrimination based on race, gender, sexual orientation)

And, I wonder, is it worth out time to try helping? How do you identify the difference between someone who has strong convictions and will be stuck in them vs. and someone who is ready to learn/improve/grow? I started typing up some more assertive responses and then deleted them - a couple times - thinking "ahhh, it's not worth it"/I don't want to get involved/it's not worth my time. To some extent, even if the person is not open to change - it is of course good to advise/challenge here in order to support good conversations in the forum and keep it from turning too [....]


In the 'real world', this last question is easier for me to sort out. If one of my friends/acquaintances is doing something I think is 'off', I have an idea of whether they are open to learning/changing/being challenged/advised. (one example of this recently was when my friend challenged me for referring to my newphew - who was born in Ethiopia and adopted by my American cousin - as "African American" (In a situation where that (maybe) had some relevance - his dancing skills/talent.

The short version is:
Him - you shouldn't call him African-American!
Me - He is literally African-American! He was born in Africa and he now lives in and is a U.S. citizen
Him - A.A. means, specifically, a black(likely of African descent) person who does not know what countries their relatives/ancestors are from because of them being slaves here. Since he knows he's Ethiopian, he's not an African-American.

(I don't entirely agree with him because of how often A.A. is used to simply mean black, but it was a good point and now it's something I'm aware of - and I had not been aware of the connotation before)

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Re: May-December Relationships, In-Vitro Fertilization, Freezing Eggs, and Other Considerations

Post by C40 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:54 pm

fiby41 wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:50 pm
I took being present to mean being physically available for a continuous stretch of ~24 hours to count for a day.
2 years of that period she was in another city for her masters and 4 months and one week of it, I was in another country.
Ahh, I see.

Many of these terms for both relationships and ~mindfulness (that word included) are vague and open to misunderstanding unless all people using them understand the specific definition being used by others in the conversation. Me/we were using a certain figurative meaning, and you a literal meaning.

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Re: May-December Relationships, In-Vitro Fertilization, Freezing Eggs, and Other Considerations

Post by Peanut » Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:18 pm

@c40: interesting about your nephew and I don’t think you are wrong. If he didn’t grow up in Ethiopia it’s not going to be a big part of his identity, so Ethiopian-American seems to be overstating. African-American is also construed as a more polite way to say ‘black.’ And some African-Americans do know where some of their ancestors are from, anyway. Similarly a baby who was adopted from China is going to get called Asian-American and it’s accurate enough. Both are umbrella terms for different personal and geographic histories.

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Re: May-December Relationships, In-Vitro Fertilization, Freezing Eggs, and Other Considerations

Post by fiby41 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:53 pm

As it pertains to OPs situation, here is my understanding of LDRs:
1 LDRs only work if all four participants are happy
2 LDRs is like having imaginary friends
3 I do not believe in LDRs

"I have had a relationship for six years. I f anything that moves. She knows I do it and she stays with me anyway."
~Tate, 4 times MMA champion.

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Re: May-December Relationships, In-Vitro Fertilization, Freezing Eggs, and Other Considerations

Post by Augustus » Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:28 pm

Mister Imperceptible wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:46 pm
I think it’s cute that people paint me as someone who is reading red pill/incel materials because it makes me out as a caricature that conveniently fits their narrative.
Principle of Charity dude, I'm trying to point you in the right direction, because I think you'll be more successful that way. Books can be just as damaging. I mentioned that I once held many of the same ideas that you currently hold, I (sadly) acquired them from books as it was before their modern incarnations on the internet. Take your current ideas, and then try applying them to how you think of and treat your close family or friends. If you went into them mistrustful, and trying to win battles and dominate them, would they be fulfilling relationships? Don't poison the well.

+1 to @JP and @7w5.

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Re: May-December Relationships, In-Vitro Fertilization, Freezing Eggs, and Other Considerations

Post by fiby41 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:44 pm

jacob wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:43 am
but I've yet to see a PUA advancing to an actual relationship
Todd Valentine, mechanical engineer, has been married and has a baby on the way.
The same people who said ERE doesn't work because jacob got a job in 2011 must've been the ones who said PUA doesn't work because author of the Mystery Method is now a father.
Neil Strauss, the NYT reporter who apprenticed under Mystery is married to someone who is about half a feet taller than him. He is bald and coauthored Game.
Nick Krauser, was 40 and stuck in a boring accountant job when his wife divorced him. He is bald, has a potbelly and married to a Ukrainian half his age using the the London Daygame Model he developed.

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Re: May-December Relationships, In-Vitro Fertilization, Freezing Eggs, and Other Considerations

Post by C40 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:51 pm

Neil Strauss wasn't really a PUA - he was role-playing to write a book. It doesn't invalidate your points though, and I was a bit surprised to see Jacob write that.

I think his point (as I interpret) is still valid: that PUA techniques (particularly when goin 'full-on PUA' style) - while being effective in picking up women for sex (often, it could be said, women who are insecure/vulnerable/bored/or just also want sex, of course) are not a good way to start LTRs as an adult.

And if I'm recalling correctly, Strauss wrote/speaks about that himself (?)

[Edit - I am quite out of the loop on PUA stuff, and my impression is from older-school tactics of things like peacocking, 'negging', just approaching 50 women on a night out/etc. A quick google of that 'London Daygame' seems to be to be a pretty normal/standard way of meeting people. Has most PUA material evolved away from those old gimmicks/prey/vulturing techniques and towards actually helping inexperienced people learn how to be social in healthy and positive ways?]

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Re: May-December Relationships, In-Vitro Fertilization, Freezing Eggs, and Other Considerations

Post by jacob » Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:17 pm

I think the reason for the shock or outrage among those who are yet to have "seen it all" comes from judging the someone misinformed rather than uninformed, the latter which commands more tolerance.

Prejudice and stereotyping definitely is a thing. There are certain words that one should avoid in mixed company lest one be associated with certain groups of ill repute. I like to use the netiquette because it's convenient but it also holds for real life. First and foremost, the key is to make yourself look good and to do that you also have to know where you are. Reputation also plays a role!

It's my absolute strong impression based on having seen it play out a few times:
1) Guys getting their advice from MGTOW, redpill, pua, incel, etc. or any other "young men's dating/growing-up advice on the internet" show a strong correlation with having relationship problems either being unable to sustain one or establish one in the first place. Correlation is not causation, so it's not clear whether these strategies attract people who are already failing for other reasons or whether adopting these methods are the source of the failure.

Either way, it's also been observed that...

2) These groups tend to repel most members of the target group. Whether that's because there's some kind of war going on with N-wave feminism, etc. on the other side is actually irrelevant, because insofar one seeks to attract, one should not repel. Makes sense? Frankly, my guess the reason that all these "techniques" are so off-putting is because how they objectify the person on the receiving end.

You can spot the objectification by the choice of wording... attracting a mate, women, female, tall, fertile, much younger, ... etc. ... Which sounds very much like a 16 year old choosing stats for a D&D character.

I wrote another post some time ago about how humans evolve from this initial (and typically unsuccessful) stage (Kegan2) where they set criteria for other people picking and choosing ... to a stage where they look at how to become attractive to other people in the hopes of getting chosen (Kegan3) ... and hopefully onto a stage where the relationship is more than a mutual selection of criteria (Kegan4+), but I can't find it.

Objectifying or using objectifying language just doesn't play great. It makes one sound like Genghis Kahn looking for victims. In particular, my issues with game type stuff is that while it deals with the second stage, it's largely manipulative and based on false/cheap signalling. This makes it very hard to get to stage 3 which is where actual long term relationships exist.

The actionable solution to the OP was to switch from the so-called "man of letters"-language to the modern language. Insofar the thinking is switched to a modern form too where the other is seen as a person who looks back as well, there's the foundation for entering a healthy long term relationship.

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Re: May-December Relationships, In-Vitro Fertilization, Freezing Eggs, and Other Considerations

Post by Mister Imperceptible » Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:51 pm

Well, if we are talking about Deep Adaption and the eventual reduction of the world’s population to just a few hundred million, you better believe I am looking to max out the stats of my descendants.

I am sure all of the polite people making themselves look good online will do well during the cataclysm.

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