Nothing Matters Vs. Everything Matters

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intellectualpersuit
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Nothing Matters Vs. Everything Matters

Post by intellectualpersuit » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:31 pm

I like starting new threads when I've had a few drinks and am procrastinating some homework, so this time the question is: does everything matter or does nothing matter? I have settled on choosing whichever suits my current predicament but I am open to change.

Nothing matters example - if I get drunk and play loud music and it keeps up my roommates fuck it because I am going to die and so are they and humanity will eventually die and the fate of earth is insignificant.

Everything matters example - I should not play loud music and keep up my roommates because if they get better sleep than they otherwise would, they may go on to do something that benefits humanity and that matters, earth may even have a larger role to play in the fate of the universe that makes my actions significant.

for some data points of my own (and possibly others) and sake of mildly interesting conversation I ask what are your thoughts and perspective?

I asked my best friend just now and he said "something might matter.". Is this the closest we can get?

daylen
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Re: Nothing Matters Vs. Everything Matters

Post by daylen » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:48 pm

Both are unstable states. Only select parts of the whole replicate.

intellectualpersuit
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Re: Nothing Matters Vs. Everything Matters

Post by intellectualpersuit » Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:03 pm

I understand acting as if either is true for all time is unstable. Are you saying that as time goes on the correct ratio of everything to nothing mattering is optimized by humans approaching the universally true state of existence?

jacob
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Re: Nothing Matters Vs. Everything Matters

Post by jacob » Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:00 am

Humans have temporal and spatial discount factors that determine how much something in the future or far away matters. For most humans the discount factors are rather large. This suggests that everything matters in the here&now and nothing matters in the distance/future. The discount rates provides a way to think about it like an economist :?

For example, spatially, many humans only care about themselves and their family and ignore issues that concern others until they affect themselves. Timewise, many humans prefer $100 now over $200 in two years; or more generally tend to be reactive rather than proactive.

This forum contains a select group of people with an unusually low temporal discount factor with many considering their future plans on an average of 30+ years out. The spatial distribution of discount factors seems more normal.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Nothing Matters Vs. Everything Matters

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:05 am

I believe that many different species independently evolved the ability to detect unusual level of noise ---> homeostasis.

jacob
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Re: Nothing Matters Vs. Everything Matters

Post by jacob » Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:16 am

Because type 2 errors will get you eaten, whereas type 1 only makes you look silly. "Better safe than sorry", says the DNA.

Campitor
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Re: Nothing Matters Vs. Everything Matters

Post by Campitor » Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:39 am

intellectualpersuit wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:31 pm
Nothing matters example - if I get drunk and play loud music and it keeps up my roommates fuck it because I am going to die and so are they and humanity will eventually die and the fate of earth is insignificant.
Enlightened Self Interest. You're roommates may decide to engage in equally annoying behavior that negatively impacts you. Seldom is life binary and even outcomes that are binary typically have a series of past actions which led to a binary outcome. You need to expand your philosophical self-improvement beyond YOLO.

Tyler9000
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Re: Nothing Matters Vs. Everything Matters

Post by Tyler9000 » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:40 am

Whether or not my actions matter doesn't matter. I live my life in a way that makes me happy, and I treat all people with respect because I believe it's the right thing to do.

chenda
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Re: Nothing Matters Vs. Everything Matters

Post by chenda » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:52 am

@tyler9000 - blessed are they who act right for the sake of righteousness, without hopes of earthly or heavenly rewards.

daylen
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Re: Nothing Matters Vs. Everything Matters

Post by daylen » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:37 am

intellectualpersuit wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:03 pm
Are you saying that as time goes on the correct ratio of everything to nothing mattering is optimized by humans approaching the universally true state of existence?
Not only the ratio but also what to selectively attend to. The development of the mind is definitely not linear, though.

An agents understanding of the "whole" is the known territory on my blog, and an agents ability to measure is constrained by invariants. There seems to be some kind of oscillating convergence with apparently random spikes.

This is really just a frame for circling around the problem in my estimation.

Jason
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Re: Nothing Matters Vs. Everything Matters

Post by Jason » Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:31 pm

intellectualpersuit wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:31 pm

I asked my best friend just now and he said "something might matter.". Is this the closest we can get?
Personally, I don't agree with your friend. I think things matter and I think everyone, somewhere, knows this. I think the way you framed the question - essentially in moral terms - tells me deep down, you know things matter and it's not right for you to get drunk and crank your stereo. Even if it's Neil Diamond's greatest hits.

But let's say your friend is right. Let's say something might matter. And let's say it's the closest we can get. Forget about the fluctuation of your cognitive beeps. That's removing any flesh in the game. That's ultimately saying nothing matters, it's just at certain, random times, you will think things matter. I guess its Ok if you are that comfortable with being the arbiter of reality. I personally am not.

So my suggestion is to think of the issue as the ultimate game of chance between the two extremes that have been out there since time immemorial - your earthly actions are ultimate judged within a context of eternal reward/punishment (everything matters) or your earthly actions have no consequence (nothing matters). I think Pascal makes a good argument on how you should roll the dice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager

daylen
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Re: Nothing Matters Vs. Everything Matters

Post by daylen » Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:26 pm

There is also the issue of local realism. Typically, it is assumed that the space-time discount curve is connected and continuous. Though, a single measuring device could conflict with another. Having only one measuring device impedes an agents ability to translate between measures of an alternative coding. To counteract this, an agent can retain multiple measuring devices with a non-locality assumption.

On the other side of my agency frame is territorial plurality. Transitioning between different territories may be accompanied with a switch in coding. Imagine multiple planes of reality with dynamic discounting. The edge of such planes would be unstable like a phase diagram. Edges are assumed as temporary boundary conditions given by intuition (hence paradoxical upon close inspection).

I am probably just full of shit but this is fun.

bryan
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Re: Nothing Matters Vs. Everything Matters

Post by bryan » Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:30 pm

Reminds me of the ending scene from Kingdom of Heaven: https://youtu.be/-k2r4MMM_e0?t=163 which really stuck with me. An excellent movie (director's cut).

suomalainen
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Re: Nothing Matters Vs. Everything Matters

Post by suomalainen » Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:57 pm

Depends on what the definition of “matters” is. @jace’s version of “matter” (eternal reward vs eternal punishment) is vastly different than yours (we all die anyway vs maybe we have an impact along the way).

In any event, don’t be a dick. (But that betrays my estimation of “what matters” and is reflective of nothing else. In other words, I agree with @jacob, but am less dorky about it).

Jason
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Re: Nothing Matters Vs. Everything Matters

Post by Jason » Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:08 am

The reason I went there with "matters" was because OP went there with "matters", talking about how cranking his stereo may or may not impact the fate of the universe. He was addressing the issue beyond just whether to be be a dick or not. Being that there was mention of studying and roommates and best friends and the self-admittance that the speculative nature of the discussion was ultimately an exercise in procrastination, I also assumed there was a bong in the picture, an assumption further supported by his apparent ability to understand whatever the fuck Daylen was talking about. Despite the thread title, I just figured it was ultimately a "what cartoon character do you masturbate to" kind of thing until someone fell asleep or academic responsibility won over.

fiby41
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Re: Nothing Matters Vs. Everything Matters

Post by fiby41 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:48 am

Why do you default to binary extremes such?
Law of the excluded middle much?

daylen
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Re: Nothing Matters Vs. Everything Matters

Post by daylen » Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:13 am

@fiby41 Ti differences versus Ni similarities; equality versus dichotomy; monism versus dualism. Both ways of thinking are indispensable, but sometimes it is easier to build momentum by starting at one extreme.

Not a whole lot of people on this forum seem to grasp that Ti often starts with overly dogmatic conclusions that are detached from the person saying them. It is a tactic. Just as Ni users will often say things like "all of this boils down to .." or "this is just another way of saying ..".

Jason
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Re: Nothing Matters Vs. Everything Matters

Post by Jason » Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:18 am

I believe in an absolute truth and that all other ideas are an oppositional expression to that absolute truth. We're talking from a worldview perspective, mind you. Not "what is the greatest movie soundtrack of all time." Even though anyone who names an album other than Saturday Night Fever should be burnt at the stake.

It's like when I go into a Dunkin Donuts and see all these different types of donuts. Some have sprinkles, some have fillings, some have a glaze. But they are all still donuts. They have more in common with each other than differences as they are all originally baked together in the same oven. They just pimp them up differently once they take them out. That's how I look at all other worldview that differ from mine. Different expressions of the same idea. I'm totalitarian that way. That's not to say I wouldn't sit down and eat a donut with someone who has a different worldview than myself. I would just make it clear he/she's just one of many fucking donuts and that they are in the presence of a goddam righteous coffee roll.

daylen
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Re: Nothing Matters Vs. Everything Matters

Post by daylen » Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:51 am

Here is a tip for all the Fi users out there: When dealing with Ti users, you cannot convince us to adopt another frame unless it either invalidates ours (by finding a contradiction) or expands onto ours (inclusive and more complex). Otherwise, you are probably wasting your time. Einstein once responded to a book called "Hundred Authors Against Einstein" by saying "If I were wrong, then one would have been enough!".

intellectualpersuit
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Re: Nothing Matters Vs. Everything Matters

Post by intellectualpersuit » Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:19 pm

I do not assume a fundamental truth, but try to figure out what it is. This will never happen, but I live and act under this truth even though I don't know what it is. I'm an intp by the way. Also Jason's intuition of the scene is decent.

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