Vaikeasti to ERE - Family Journal

Where are you and where are you going?
ertyu
Posts: 2893
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 2:31 am

Re: Vaikeasti to ERE - Family Journal

Post by ertyu »

Vaikeasti wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 11:03 am
(As a side note: I'm mixed as people have been complimenting the Pokemons I've drawn. I do not think they are especially good so are they just being nice or is the bar for "good" drawing skills lower than I've thought?)
I have a creative hobby where people often share non-professional level efforts and this happens quite a lot. What I've seen it mean, in no particular order:

- You have shared a thing, and the polite and socially appropriate response it to say it's great. So that's what I say
- I have seen work of yours before, and this is way better than what i remember of your previous efforts. good work!
- Wow, this is way better than what a random person can create. Great!
- This is way better than I can ever hope to create. If it were me who created this, I'd be proud of my skills!
- I genuinely like it! It might not look professionally polished, but I still really like it for some other quality, as professional polish isn't a chief determinant of aesthetics for me. E.g. I think it looks cute, or it invokes an emotion and has an impact even if it's not what you would see from a paid professional creator.
- The entire project is awesome and this thing is awesome because it is a part of such an awesome project.

So some people are indeed just being nice, but many do indeed mean it when they praise a creative effort that doesn't have a commercial/professional grade polish. Say thank you and feel good!

Vaikeasti
Posts: 110
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:02 pm

Re: Vaikeasti to ERE - Family Journal

Post by Vaikeasti »

Thank you ertyu.

You're right. There are many positive reasons to compliment something so I might as well be happy about it. No need to overthink it. : )

On other news: Just got a bonus from last year! (2000eur, I put half into shares and half into bonds.) My first my ever bonus! Feels really weird and nice getting something when the company has fared well.
Several thoughts have crossed my mind: Why is not every salary tied to the company's success? How come I get more salary than a training nurse or a janitor that has worked 10 years?
I mean, I'm working in an air-conditioned office and drawing on a computer what others have designed. How is my job worth more than taking care of humans or buildings? WELL, the thing is it's not.
This bonus is really driving home the point that salary doesn't equal the worth of the person/job.

I'll check out our numbers soon, but I'm certain they are worse than at the beginning of the year. Highly unmotivating to think that I've switched around 8000eur over to shares in this first half of the year and most likely they are gone for some time. I need to get a plan for when these sales happen in the future so that I can just act. I missed the best dip on the market because I didn't know what to invest to. :?

Vaikeasti
Posts: 110
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:02 pm

Re: Vaikeasti to ERE - Family Journal

Post by Vaikeasti »

Finances and spending 5/2020:
Current wealth (for both of us adults):
Liquid assets:
Cash: 18 000€
Funds: 9 600€
Shares: 15 500€
=43 100€ (48 700 USD) (+41% since 8/2019)

Non-liquid assets:
Unlisted shares: 2 200€
Debenture: 3 000€
Misc.: 10 000€
Voluntary pension insurance: 9 000€ (payout earliest after 2055 and seems to shift further every year...)
=15 200€ (17 200 USD) (+0%)

Liabilities:
Mortage(home): -73 000€
Mortage(cabin): -34 000€
Student loan: -11 000€
= -118 000€ (133 300 USD) (1,3% better?)

Money towards ER:
43100€+15200€-118000€= -59 700€ (67 500 USD) (19% better)

Normal networth:
43100€+15200+9000€+231000€-118000€=180 300€ (204 000 USD)

Income per month (after tax):
Part-time job: 500€
Full time job: 2 500€ (base salary, usually more due to working nights or doing extra work)
Meeting remunerations: 115€ (calculated from estimated yearly total)
Dividends: 30€ (calculated from estimated yearly total)
=3145€ (3 600 USD) (-28%)

Income is definitely not what we hoped it'd be at this time. The virus and me not graduating are making a dent in the income. Then again this has given me help on reducing expenses.

This year so far we've spent 3000eur/month on average. (3400 USD for 2 adults and 2 kids or 2,1 statistical Finnish adults.) (-25%.) So, we've lost a thousand euros from income and expenses. (Well, the student loan wasn't really income since it is a loan, so I do consider this better in that regard.)

Current wealth (Kids):
Cash: 4 000€
Bonds: 10 000€
=14 000€ (15 800 USD) (+27%)

Still a few years ahead of schedule. Going as planned. I wish I could be as levelheaded and confident about the rest of the finances as I am with the kids money.

Stories from work
shadow wrote: Sales - I have some extravert qualities (I like being around people) but I lean pretty heavily introverted; I can put on a high energy mask but it is exhausting. I am also very bad at clicking with people when first meeting them. I also am very soft spoken naturally. These probably sound like gaping holes in my sales plan, which is correct, and I do want to play to my strengths. But I have a decent amount of experience practicing verbal communication, I can speak passionately about a subject especially if I am actually passionate about it, and naturally have a problem solving/solution offering brain. In short I am not a natural salesman but I think I could become an artificial one.
I can so relate to the being a partly natural salesperson. I had a summer job at a cemetery, where one of my jobs was to sell the graves. I was really good at it; every one felt like they got the best spot possible. ("Would you like this one with the calming view or maybe this one with easy winter access?") At times I'm still hoping to find a place where I could sell to people something they need and are already looking for.
Like a real estate agent but more honest. (No offence Jason. And maybe commercial buildings in the USA are a different game than private apartments in here?)

At the moment I'm a bit scared regarding work. There's a small effort trying to switch me (at least temporally) to another department so I'd have work hours and they'd have more workforce there.
I'm glad because I want to work a bit more. But only a bit, since I fell I'm not capable of full time work at the moment. And I fear that there is not going to be any orientation this time either. I just feel I'm not up to learning new stuff, especially not work related stuff.

Hardly in the Kitchen
I like cooking and baking. Or more accurately I like planning and dreaming. And eating. I have a hard time being super focused or accurate so sometimes the results only vaguely resemble food.

I've been trying to get back to making more food from the start by myself. Still a lot to improve on that.

I made rice porridge (traditional Christmas food around here) today with the recipe I learned from a friend long time ago. She said this is the way they do it in all schools and such.

1 litre of rice porridge
2 dl rice
1 litre of fluids (8 dl of water and 2 dl cream)
1 dl of margarine
1 teaspoon salt
Cooking pot and lid
Stirring tool

Put the rice and the margarine and a little water to the pot and turn on the heat to medium until the grease has melted and been sucked into the rice.
Add the rest of the water. Bring to boil and let simmer for 45 minutes.
Add the cream and salt and let simmer for 10 min.
Let the porridge sit for 10 min before serving.

I do not know if there is any science (or sense) behind this method. Feel free to inform me. :D

I've managed to make beans a bit more lately. I make a patch and freeze it in portions to thaw and eat later. This way I've been able to eat beans and still serve chicken to the rest of the family. Usually the kids want to taste the beans and that makes me happy.

I've been eating too much sweets lately and I can see the negative effects. Eating sugar is not good for stable mental energy levels.

This current arrangement that only SO goes to the store, has reduced our convenience store bill, which is great. Looking back; last year at this time we spent 700eur(+-100eur) in the convenience store every month. Last fall it was down to 500(+-100eur). During covid it has been 300eur/month.
It has also reduced my stress somewhat. And it forces me to work on some of my issues (fear of running out of food, difficulty of asking for things) and it has freed a little of my energy to be creative with what we have in the cupboards.
This is still twice the ERE budget for food, but it is an improvement!


In short:
Success:
Better temper with the kids
Drawing and reading with the kids
Improvement with the bigger kids fear of biking

Room for improvement:
Friend recommended the Feeling Good by David Burns, looking it up, mean while listening to their podcasts on youtube
Anxiety management, getting things done

Risks taken:
Seeked help, accepted help
Talked to SO and other people about difficulties
Meeting with relatives (positive for mental health)
Asked around for a sport club for the smaller kid

Played it safe:
Slacking on purpose (work, childcare, housekeeping)

shadow
Posts: 54
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:18 pm

Re: Vaikeasti to ERE - Family Journal

Post by shadow »

I definitely agree with selling things that people are already looking for; it leaves a bad taste in my mouth to sell something I don’t really believe in. But maybe I will be able to just kill that instinct. After all if people are willing to give up their money for something I think is bad for the world then it’s probably better in my pocket.

Are you toasting the rice in that recipe? I’ve tried to toast the rice some before and it usually ends up doing what you described, just sucking up all the fat, and doesn’t cook. Maybe I should just embrace it haha

mooretrees
Posts: 762
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:21 pm

Re: Vaikeasti to ERE - Family Journal

Post by mooretrees »

Hi! Wanted to chime in a say I am enjoying your journal. I really like your summary of success, room for improvement, etc. I also wish I had been more financial secure/independent before I had my son. Progress of any sort is progress, so I hope you can feel good about any progress you make. Since I started my journal a little over a year ago I've felt lots of frustration over our ERE progress. But, a lot can change in a year and for those of us with families, the quick big changes are tougher. I've had success with focusing on a few changes at a time-food being a big one. Over time, those changes really do add up! Keep up the work and remember to keep exercising!!!

Aspirant
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Location: 65 deg north

Re: Vaikeasti to ERE - Family Journal

Post by Aspirant »

Wow on the grocery bill!

I have been doing the shopping trips and we are about 550 €/month. Maybe next 2 weeks are better since I can't eat anything solid.

Vaikeasti
Posts: 110
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:02 pm

Re: Vaikeasti to ERE - Family Journal

Post by Vaikeasti »

@shadow, thanks for the comment! Now that you ask, I'm starting to wonder if the rice is meant to be toasted and I'm just doing it wrong. :P

@mooretrees, thank you for your encouragement! And the prompt for exercising, I've been neglecting that..

@Aspirant, thank you! But don't feel bad, our grocery bill is not equal to our grocery store spending and it's only been two months. :)
I mean, we've been eating the stuff we bought while preparing for lock down and I've ordered food online so our grocery bill is more in the ballpark of 400-450eur/month. (That's 215 eur/statistical adult so still not very ERE.)

Difficulties in the balcony garden
I was sprouting tomatoes and salads earlier, the kids wiped out some of them but the two weeks at the cabin were fatal to the rest. (Who would've guessed that sprouts can't live without water. :roll: )

So I made a new batch that has survived so far. Salads are looking weak and pale but I'm not really a fan of them anyway so I'm not crying if they wilt under the excessive watering that kids are giving them.

I just transferred some of the sprouts to the balcony. (Too early, I've been told that you should wait to the first blossom before taking the sprouts outside.) I also walked to the nearest market place and hauled home two strawberry plants.

So now our balcony has strawberries, peas, chives, a zucchini, dill (not planted, there was probably some old seeds in the soil I reused), carrots (so far nothing), different kinds of salads (wilting), and six tomatoes (I hope some of them will survive).

The kids wanted flowers so we started some cress and beans.

I like the planting and dealing with the soil but I'm really bad with routines so we'll see how this goes. I hope SO will help with the regular watering. I'm dreaming that we could recycle the kids bathwater to the plants and that would give me a structure to the watering schedule.

Only a little on social needs
I know I'm in the wrong place being at this forum since I'm clearly not INTJ. I have too much F.

I've been thinking about this question: If an INTJ would be in a relationship where the other party requests for them to give more praise and or positive feed back. And typically, from the INTJs point of view, everything the other person does is subpar and incomplete. How would they proceed?

On fashion
I read a thread about men's fashion here where the basic debate was between whether you should try to pass in fashion or not. If I understood correctly jacob argued that passing is required only for social goals and if you don't have those, then there's no need to dress (fashionably). The only needs for clothing are thus shelter from the elements and abiding by the law (not going naked).

Fashion has always been my weak area. I still need to pass as I'm not FI yet and I need to play the social games to keep my job. I hate knowing I don't know about fashion. Well, no. I hate that I should know about fashion at all.

Stereotypes are a way that people deal with people since getting to know everyone would be impossible. That's where clothing and other visual cues come in. If I dress in ill fitting, dirty and old clothes then I probably am a homeless/poor person and so I'm treated with caution.

"I wish I would've learned about ERE sooner"
(I've slept so badly that I'm really not capable of logical thought at the moment. I apologize for not ceasing to exists.)
I've been thinking about this a little. I think the illusion of the cave is a good thing to have while you're not yet FI. I theorize it's easier to deal with the BS of corporate world and get to high paying jobs if you can and want to devote your soul to that.

When you've made ERE a goal your focus changes and the daily grind becomes an necessary evil instead of unavoidable normal way of life.
It's easier to play along if you believe at least some of what is said.

Well, probably it's just me trying to justify my own shortcomings.
(EDIT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tqq66zwa7g A TED talk on mindsets. Further evidence that points that how you look at it changes on how it impacts you. For better or worse.)

In short:
Success:
Visits to the cabin and to the lake shore (kids loved swimming and the beach, they behaved so well even I got to swim!)
I feel like I'm getting closer to some root issues in therapy
Dug a few holes for apple trees in the cabin and reserved apple trees from a store (SO did the rest. Now we have three new apple trees fighting a heat wave all alone at the cabin, poor things!)

Room for improvement:
Still missing the connection with SO (still mixed up on this, we do have some very nicely aligned goals)
Too much videos for the kids to avoid problems
No improvement on anything (work, home, school)
Too much sweets
Sleep, what is that?
Still waiting for someone to save me and put my life together again (I know it's my job to do it but still..)
The buy nothing challenge hasn't really been happening, I've been buying (stupid) stuff and keep on planning on spending money..

Risks taken:
talked more deeply with a school friend
asked my relatives to try the MBTI internet tests

Played it safe:
No changes in anything
Last edited by Vaikeasti on Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:33 am, edited 2 times in total.

AxelHeyst
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Re: Vaikeasti to ERE - Family Journal

Post by AxelHeyst »

Vaikeasti wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:02 am
Only a little on social needs
I know I'm in the wrong place being at this forum since I'm clearly not INTJ. I have too much F.

I've been thinking about this question: If an INTJ would be in a relationship where the other party requests for them to give more praise and or positive feed back. And typically, from the INTJs point of view, everything the other person does is subpar and incomplete. How would they proceed?
I'm an INTJ, my DW is ENFP. She's made it clear that it's important for her to feel seen, heard, and valued. Probably everyone does.

From my perspective, her life is rolling mild catastrophe. Always late, never organized, forgets stuff, almost never researches things, etc.

But, there's more to being a human than being organized. Those are a set of ways of operating that are important to me, but I recognize that they aren't the only ways to express being a human, and other people value other dimensions of humanity more. An INTJ who thinks that *everything* the other person does is subpar and incomplete must be only evaluating a certain narrow band of human performance (punctuality, organization, etc), and ignoring other spectrums that the person might be doing quite well at.

DW isn't good at making decisions using logic or reason, but her intuition is strong and often right. When she contributes an intuitive decision to our lives, I make sure she knows I respect and appreciate her intuitive powers. She's terrible at making plans, but she is spontaneous and is able to happily go with the flow of whatever situation arises - and in fact, she seems to thrive when everything's gone of the rails and we're in a bit of a crisis. I try to always tell her, after, how appreciative I am that she can keep her shit together and even be cheerful even when everything is going to hell. She's a Highly Sensitive Person, and while sometimes that's a pain to navigate, I let her know that I really value how much she feels for other people, that I love her compassion, and etc. So, I try to notice things that she is good at, and recognize her for those.

But also, I try not to judge her performance on other things based on my personal standard, but on an understanding of where she's at. If she says she's going to leave on a trip Tuesday morning... I'm just happy if she leaves on Tuesday. The other day she had a problem, and googled the solution herself. She never does that. I told her how proud I was of her - I did NOT say something condescending like "wow, you finally figured out where the search bar is, huh?"

I would recommend that an INTJ who is struggling to provide this sort of feedback should research solipsism, and then read some books about emotional intelligence, to the point where they can express in their own words why someone might say that they "just want to be seen, heard, and valued", and provide some example scenarios, tactics, and strategies.

ertyu
Posts: 2893
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 2:31 am

Re: Vaikeasti to ERE - Family Journal

Post by ertyu »

conclusion: it's not about being an INTJ, it's about not being a dick. If someone sees their partner as essentially subpar and incomplete, that's not about personality types, that's about contempt for / looking down on your partner and thinking yourself superior. A person of any personality type can look down on their partner and think themselves superior; e.g. in the above example, if AH's partner were a dick, she could very well say, "pfft, AH, so fucking stuck up everything must be fucking micromanaged just get some empathy already and learn to actually *live*, are you even human?" But she is not a dick, and she recognizes AH has strengths and weaknesses, and makes sure to appreciate the strengths. Has actively communicated a need for reciprocity in this respect. Because AH is not a dick either, he has done his best to understand where his partner is coming from and has used his strengths re planning etc to developing strategies and tactics to actually fulfill this need.

tl;dr: if someone is treating you as less-than for having a given set of weaknesses, they're a dick.

Vaikeasti
Posts: 110
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:02 pm

Re: Vaikeasti to ERE - Family Journal

Post by Vaikeasti »

Thank you AxelHeyst and ertyu for your input! I really appreciate it.
I guess this troubles me so much because I wish to understand the why behind everything.

I've been reading the Feeling good together book now and it has given me a lot of new insight also.

I've also been listening to the audio book of Feeling Good, but what I've learned so far is that I'm really bad at listening to audio books. The book would require total focus and if I need to focus then I'd rather read it at my own pace. All the topics so far seem to be introduced in the podcast, although less information densely. The podcast is so slow I can do simple tasks while listening to it so I think it is better for me.

Hardly worth mentioning buy-nothing-challenge
Results so far (past 6 weeks/past 6 months):
Days shopped 15 / 62
Buy nothing days 27 / 120
Success rate 64% / 66%

Categories (past 6 weeks/ past 6 months):
Groceries 9 / 29
Snacks 0 / 2
School lunch 0 / 3
Restaurant 1 / 7
Toys 2 / 6
Sweets 4 / 19 (It seems I'm spending around 50eur/month on ice cream alone...)
Clothes 0 / 4
Gift 4 / 6
Medical 1 / 3
Leisure 0 / 2
Stupidity 0 / 1
Stuff 3 / 4
Transport 5 / 6

What I gather from this is that I personally actively threw money away every third day on average. I'm not proud, but I'm not really disappointed either since I haven't concentrated on this very much. (Okay, I'm disappointed for not concentrating on this more.) I'd even guess that the number is this low thanks to covid stopping me from shopping more.
I'll check some time how much am I buying by asking SO to bring stuff. At least the twice a week groceries and all shopping for the cabin.

Balcony garden
Many things are still green and alive in the balcony. Which by the way, was planted on old soil and mostly from old seeds too. I bought the beans and the strawberries only. The strawberries did get too much water and caught a mold or something, the heatwave did help them, but I'm afraid that they'll die and leave us with a harvest of 4 strawberries. (That would be 10 euros per strawberry, ouch.)

Difficulties with work
I've been neglecting my work. The amount of time and life-energy it consumes is just too much at the moment. I was happy when I read about AxelHeyst's cushy new situation (8 hours/week and 20.000USD/year).
At the same time I was mortified by the notion that in order to get there one has to work 60 hours a week for 15 years, or something like that. And that's American work years, not Finnish work years that have way more days off, if I'm correct.
I can see that my priority should be creating the mindset that can live the ERE life boldly and proudly, and then minimizing expenses. Because the maximizing income side seems impossibly hard at the moment.
I'm still trying to cling to the hope that things will look different when the kids are locked up in school all day long. Maybe then I have more time and energy to spend on a job. (I haven't yet fully recovered from the grieving period related to the realization that I am not a disciplined enough person to home school my kids.)

In short:
Success:
Repaired our tablet! (Kids dropped it to the floor and the LCD's ribbon cable detached and the screen stopped working. SO's fixed it a few times before so I knew what to look for.)
Line dried our laundry outside and made the kids marvel the smell of sun dried laundry (it's common here that apartment houses have shared clotheslines on the yard)
Worked at the office a few days (really productive hours there, also met a nice colleague and had a nice chat)
Been practicing my drawing
Got closer to an old school friend, had some deep conversations and new ideas (really hoping that this will continue)
Visited a new awesome park with the kids (even SO participated for some time, really good experience overall)
Managed a short morning exercise daily for a whole week so far (I usually suck with consistency)
Had a play date in a park with friends (a friend that also values recycling and thrift stores)

Room for improvement:
I've forgotten what cleaning is
The weathers hot, but I haven't adjusted our meal plans properly, so food waste is rising again
Didn't support my sister enough when she wanted my kids to wear masks on a bus ride (settled for scarfs)
Haven't done much paid work lately
Mindless surfing of the net and waiting for reply's in social media is on the rise again
My head feels like it's filled with custard (sleep, diet, stress? Maybe a combo of them all?)
I notice I miss jennypenny's old forum picture (need to improve my tolerance to change)

Risks taken:
Stopped for hamburgers on the way home from cabin
Traveled an hour in a train with the kids and without masks

Played it safe:
Avoided promising any delivery dates regarding work
Skipped a visit to a relative because one of us had a fever few days prior

Vaikeasti
Posts: 110
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:02 pm

Re: Vaikeasti to ERE - Family Journal

Post by Vaikeasti »

No sweets challenge
My Schoolmate challenged me to a No sweets challenge. According to some source it takes 60 days for something to become a habit. So we're aiming for 60 days without sweets. Though I think the definition of sweets in our challenge is too loose, as junk food is allowed.
I am winning so far and it feels great. (I did clear my kids leftover dessert one day so I can't claim a totally clean record.)

This was a really good wake up call for me, because now I see that I have gotten in to the habit of having added sugar on every.single.meal.
This challenge has resulted in reduced waste on bread and food, and an increase in wasted cake. :cry:
My kids still have jam with breakfast porridge and dessert after dinner (and many times after lunch too).
My plan is to concentrate on the challenge now and tackle the kids diet after that.

Something about finances
I contemplated on why it has been so hard to save and realized, that the best savings rate we've had, was when we just saved my paycheck back in the days of no kids.
So I started putting all my paychecks to our savings account and siphoning money from SO's account to cover all expenses.
This method seems to be working; we've managed to keep our expenses under 3000 eur/month (~3500 USD). This has brought some pressure to our finances, but that's necessary for changes to happen, I think.
My paychecks have been pretty small so the savings rate is nothing special, but never the less now there is once again a plan on saving.
There's also an emotional struggle involved as I don't feel that SO is fully on board this. SO's priority is self-reliance and that means spending money on improving things at the cabin.

On values and boundaries
Axel Heyst wrote: ---
Okay here's what I've been digging up this week. I've had issues with "boundaries" my whole adult life. I have codependent tendencies, of the "caretaker" variety, meaning, I apparently have an emotional need to be needed, because I lack the ability to self-validate. This manifests in two ways:

a) I'm helpful AF. Anyone and anything around me, I'll cheerfully take on any tasks or projects they or I can think of. Bonus if I can get in to a relationship with someone who is a basket case and clearly "needs" my competence, level-headedness, and ability to take on an enormous amount of work.

b) it's nearly impossible for me to ask for help or state my own needs/desires, mostly because I haven't the first clue wtf those are, and even if I did, asking for them would upset the balance of needing to be needed. That validation hit of being needed is what I need, which is why "what do you want?" never made much sense to me. "I want you to tell me what you want/need, so I can help you with it, so I can feel needed" is the true answer.

This is relevant to ERE/FI, hang in there.
---

A fundamental commonality to all mental health issues (according to psychtoday :roll: ) is a lack of / low self-esteem. Story checks out: if I had a strong internally-generated sense of "I am enough", I wouldn't need to be running around helping people with shit I had no actual interest in all the time just to feel like I was halfway worth the oxygen I was breathing. (Oh, huh. I have an extreme aversion to being in the way. In public spaces, I'm always hyper-aware of if I'm blocking a hallway / taking up space that I ought not to be, etc. Seems relevant.)

---

If you can't even approach the question "What do you actually want? What do you enjoy?" without honest confusion (it's not a trick fucking question dude!!) and if it's literally impossible for you to ask other people for help, of any sort, because your brain can't even formulate a thought in the "ask-for-help" pattern, then you got some shit to work out before you can start to live *your* actual life, instead of someone else's.

And, as I've discovered, it's going to be difficult for you to hold your boundaries around things like spending money on stuff, because a) you don't actually have a solid "I want semiERE/FI/freedom/whatever" vision, and b) if spending some money seems like it'll help someone out, you'll do that instead even if it's against your ERE frugality ethic, because the validation hit you get from helping/caretaking someone is stronger than the self-validation hit you get from doing your own thing, executing your own vision.
This whole post really hit me since I've been struggling with these questions too. I'm posting the universal parts here, mostly as a reminder.

I've noticed my tendency to want to help everyone and fix everything a while back and I think I've made some progress with that. Having my own kids and seeing, how letting them try things themselves is valuable, has been enlightening for me.
(Yes, I would say that the kids really are changing my life for the better.)

I totally understand the feeling of total confusion when someone asks "what do you want?".
I want Everyone to be happy, because I hope at the end Everyone will include me too / because I hope I'll be happy as a byproduct (and no-one will notice / deny it from me).
I just had a conversation, with my Schoolmate, about how even the suggestion "you should check that you get enough calories" drove me up an emotional roller coaster, because it showed caring and I couldn't determine any gain for the person suggesting it.

But the question still remains: How do you get more self-esteem?
At the moment my theory is that you dig out some encouraging thought and hang on to that
(Mine is: "Do I believe everyone has value as themselves? Yes I do. Then by logic it follows that I have value as myself.")
and then start asking "What would a person with good self-esteem do?" / "How would you want your loved one/child to handle this situation?"

(Sorry if it sounds confusing, I'm not crystal clear on the difference of value/worth, because they are the same word in Finnish. Value is what someone thinks something is worth and price is what the something is actually exchanged for? )

And when you act in a self-respecting way and when others allow it, you grow in confidence that you truly are worthy of (self)respect.
The co-dependencies are not easy to break and I'm sure there will a lot of people that have a hard time adjusting their model of the endless helper to a person with limits. As Axel said the current way of things has benefited some people.
You just have to cling on to the encouraging thought until the storm clears.

I still don't know what makes me happy, but I try to notice when I am happy and make a mental note of the situation, and if it is "healthy" or not. I also try to dig to the reasons when I'm unhappy, if the discontent comes from a healthy place or not.

In short: I try to act like I have self-esteem until I really do. Or, fake it till you make it, is my approach.
I'm not sure if this is the right or the best way though.

When I say I love something or hate something, I declare a small victory for self-esteem. (In youth I took pride in my non emotional expressions and language use. Now I view it mostly as an excuse for people to walk over me.)

When I tell my favorite color or my favorite fruit to someone, I declare a small victory for self-esteem.
(I actually remember the moment when I found out that I Can Choose a favorite color. I cried when I realized I don't have to go with the one I'm supposed to like because of my gender profile.)

Axel Heyst wrote:Dude, Axel, go rant on some shoegazey emo reddit sub, this is an ERE board, wtf. Yeah yeah: This is relevant because, per my small book of a post a few up, the Focus segment of Wheaton L5 is "Pareto optimization of expenses for maximum life enjoyment." This is relevant to figuring out htf to enjoy life. Because I can tell you, running around rescuing other people/small companies isn't all it's cracked up to be, especially when you layer burnout on top of it so you don't have the energy to even approach it with your normal level of energy and stoke.
I too believe that good self-esteem is a prerequisite for a good life and good ERE.

Of course we still can argue that "the get out of dept" / "lose weight so that you're not overweight" / "build some basic self-esteem" problems should be tackled else where since this is a "higher level" forum on all aspects.
Does that mean people should leave their areas of problems out of here and only talk about the things they excel at? Hide those less glorious parts of themselves? (Conceal, don't feel? ;) )
Or do we only allow fully rounded perfect "higher level" on all fronts specimen to enter?
Then I believe there will be less variety and less growth here.

I gladly admit in only dreaming of being "high level" on any aspect, but it's easy to find people here with high levels on some aspects and problems on others. Should they be excluded too?
Should everyone, that though ERE was Just Extreme FIRE, be cast aside? That would mean there's nearly no-one else than jacob here...

I believe this place is about growing, and the wish to grow and expand your knowledge. And that's part of what makes it so special and beautiful.
And that is why all aspects of life and all thoughts and especially all thought processes should be visible. (Keeping it respectful and civil naturally.)
There's a lot to learn even from mistakes. Censoring and deleting parts of it will make it harder to see the process and to learn from others.

(That shall also be my grieving regarding bigato taking his years of thoughts away from us.)
guitarplayer wrote: I wasn't aware that asking for the comments to be deleted is an option, it will probably make it somewhat difficult to comprehend various threads.

Hope that Bigato manages well in life. Like someone above mentioned, (mental) health (and well-being I should say) trumps all else, so if getting rid of all his input from here helps, that's fine.

I hope though that this is not going to become a trend! I have never even registered with any forum before this one, not to mention actively participating. The posters here make it truly unique so hope everyone's gonna stick around :)

In short:
Success:
  • Short morning exercise still happening albeit not daily at the moment (but regularly enough that the kids have started asking "have you done the exercise yet?")
  • 2 day water fast done (Really boosted my trust on my self discipline)
  • Thorough cleaning of 1 room happened
  • Clearing away toys with the kids in the evenings has made a comeback (has happened on several consecutive days)
  • Still connecting and enjoying the talks with Schoolmate
  • No sweets challenge going on (day 10 out of 60 now)
  • Got a Zucchini the size of a store bought one from the balcony garden!
  • Informed my boss on days which I plan on working (Yay, some routines emerging? Highly unlikely. But at least a chance to get sick leave.)
  • Made banana bread (it's really a cake, so I didn't get to eat it though)
Room for improvement:
  • Left a banana to spoil and now we have an infestation of banana flies to fight
  • 4 of my button shirts gave up in short succession, I will be needing more office worthy clothes if/when the work-from-home -order is lifted. Now I need to do some mending.
  • There's no such thing as patience at our household
  • Setting boundaries for the kids
  • Learning to deal with stress and disappointment
  • Learning to be on my own
  • Been neglecting the Buy Nothing bookkeeping (and bought a membership of an environmental club out on a whim)
Risks taken:
  • Visited another schoolmates inspirational self-renovation house
  • Visited a park that was a train ride away with the kids
  • Visited the Schoolmate (awesome apartment renovation there too BTW)
  • Kids went back to daycare (for two days and after that they were sick for a week and had to be tested for covid)
  • Asked for help with the kids, and sent the runny nosed fighters to my moms care
  • Let the kids approach strangers at the beach near cabin
  • In-laws visited the cabin (Ended up being quite enjoyable, against my expectations)
  • Tried again to get help for thesis (not a hit but not a total miss either)
  • Entertaining 7wannabe5's words of wisdom around the forum (especially the part regarding ISTJ+ENTP relationships)
  • Did pelvic floor exercises too much and got a cramp (I was sure I'd throw up and die. Can't remember when I last had painkillers before this.)
  • Discussed about ERE forums, and used the terms we and us
Played it safe:
  • Stayed home plenty
  • Didn't start regulating the kids sugar intake
  • Not pushing issues with SO
  • Watched a lot of TEDx talks and Better than yesterday -channel

Aspirant
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Re: Vaikeasti to ERE - Family Journal

Post by Aspirant »

Thanks for the post. I hope you are doing well.

Few short comments:
Good luck with the sweets challenge. I have been trying to moderate my beer drinking to limit unnecessary calories. Seems that few months of trying (not succeeding) has dropped consumption about 30 %. So don't worry about lapses and keep going :)

Went to the dentist with kid yesterday. She was pretty adamant for not having sweet snacks daily. No cavities, but it got me thinking about kid's cookie habit. I think I am trying to replace sweet desserts with something healthier. And maybe just not buy cookies?

I am not very good at psychological advice (with that you need to ask "the other Finn"). But I think you pretty much captured it in
And when you act in a self-respecting way and when others allow it, you grow in confidence that you truly are worthy of (self)respect.

Aspirant
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Re: Vaikeasti to ERE - Family Journal

Post by Aspirant »

...nice. Phone deleted half of what I wrote in the morning :/

To continue from the quote: Just do stuff that is a little hard for you. Eventually you handle it and consequently gain confidence. Look at your kids. they maybe born with great amounts of self confidence, but every day they encounter some hardship or another (a sock refuses to go in a foot, or it rains all of a sudden etc.). After a little tantrum they will carry on, and manage somehow. Some stuff is scary at first, but after a few attempts, it will be fun. They will learn to ride that bike and so on...

In 5 years when you look back to this day, you see that you have grown as a person and the worries you have now will be less important. Your kids are bigger, so you have more time to yourself. Daily life will be easier. You probably graduated and work in a decent job. Money stuff starts to settle since you earn more. Now just picture this future in your head, write it down and start taking small steps that take you there. And take care of your health. If that wasn´t on the list, move it to number 1 or 2.

Damn, I should do that myself as well if its that easy :lol:

Aspirant
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Re: Vaikeasti to ERE - Family Journal

Post by Aspirant »

https://open.spotify.com/episode/0jKBhl ... qqNFqygU8Q

Maybe there is a podcast that answers better than I can?

Vaikeasti
Posts: 110
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:02 pm

Re: Vaikeasti to ERE - Family Journal

Post by Vaikeasti »

Thank you for the kind response Aspirant!

That podcast was golden and really what I needed at the moment.

Especially this thought:
When you talk to yourself in a criticizing way, you think it's because otherwise you'd become lazy. That the constant criticizing is pushing you to achieve your goals. But if your boss would talk to you in the way you talk to yourself, would you feel motivated and think the boss is doing a good job?
Studies show that the people that are not harshly judgmental of themselves actually achieve their goals better and get better results. They are not slowed down by their own minds that much.

I'm going to set a goal to have at least 6 consecutive hours to relax without plans or goals, every week. I'll try to schedule that and stick to it.
We'll see how that changes things. I'm sure I won't succeed perfectly but just trying is a big step forward.

ertyu
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Re: Vaikeasti to ERE - Family Journal

Post by ertyu »

Rich Roll had a guy on his podcast the other week - seems like the key to achieving goals in a non-criticizing way is to stop occasionally and tell yourself you're doing fine and you're pleased with your progress so far.

AxelHeyst
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Re: Vaikeasti to ERE - Family Journal

Post by AxelHeyst »

Vaikeasti wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:38 am
In short: I try to act like I have self-esteem until I really do. Or, fake it till you make it, is my approach.
I'm not sure if this is the right or the best way though.


When I say I love something or hate something, I declare a small victory for self-esteem. (In youth I took pride in my non emotional expressions and language use. Now I view it mostly as an excuse for people to walk over me.)

When I tell my favorite color or my favorite fruit to someone, I declare a small victory for self-esteem.
I really appreciated your whole post - and wanted to chime in on this part here.

This short post by Scott Young sums up a whole lot of broadly applicable advice to me:
https://www.scotthyoung.com/blog/2019/0 ... your-life/

The idea is that losing at something is a hit to one's confidence; winning is an increase in one's confidence. Almost no one comes out of nowhere with a huge win, although it may look like it; you're just seeing the latest win which is sitting on top of a long upwards spiral of wins, each one of which increased confidence and gave that person the psychological tools to make bigger moves, bigger "bets", and believe in themselves more.

Similarly, someone who is in a bad place, it's often due not to some Big Failure, but rather a downwards spiral of losses - each one of which "encouraged" the person to take smaller bets, to not even try next time, etc.

And his advice for how to turn a downwards spiral around, or enhance a positive one, is
Scott Young wrote:The key is to start by taking small steps which you can almost certainly achieve. Breaking out of the spiral starts by making concrete steps forward, slowly rebuilding your faith in your own efforts. Done deliberately and patiently over time, this can turn a negative spiral into a positive one.
I find this mental model really helpful, particularly if I'm feeling down about where I'm at. I can often get stuck in the headspace of "ah, I'm not doing great, I should set a really ambitious goal to try to get to where I *wanted* to be at this point", but often it's too ambitious of a goal, I don't actual have the confidence or the life-energy resources to make such a big leap at that point, and so I fail at it, and wind up even worse off. If instead I try to set some small goal that's almost certainly achievable, that'll give me a nice hit of confidence boosting and "see, I can do things", and I can build on that.

disk_poet
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Re: Vaikeasti to ERE - Family Journal

Post by disk_poet »

This is a really interesting topic. I am just reading through the ERE book the first time and the quote "If you focus on process achieving goals will be a side effect" (ok, not a direct quote - paraphrasing here) really stuck with me because it put into words what I have been trying to wrap my head around lately. I noticed that I also put myself down and criticize me when I am not reaching my goal fast enough or putting enough effort in. The other thing I noticed is that I also don't really give myself credit for reaching them but instead just move the goal post. The inner voice saying something like "Well, it obviously was too easy as demonstrated by the fact that you did it" (Hello, missing self-worth). I've since been less focused on actually reaching my goals but taking the goals more as a sign of direction. Since I will the move the goal post anyway I might as well just focus on moving towards it... :lol: - I am aware that this is a bit silly but it does take the pressure off for me which in turn funnily enough helps me reach the original goals quite often. I think it has something to do with valuing growth and progress more than achievement and part of growth (for me) is failure and struggle.

ertyu
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Re: Vaikeasti to ERE - Family Journal

Post by ertyu »

I discovered a lot of this was because of how I was treated as a child. My accomplishments were, and still are, taken for granted. My family doesn't like me for them even if they are objectively impressive. Instead, they focus on what is wrong with me and harp on that. And if you have been treated like that, you learn to treat yourself the same way.

One of the things I've read about (we depressed fucks become experts on this shit by necessity), is that becoming a parent yourself really can help. It's not uncommon for people to feel pride in their kids' accomplishments and to realize -- wait. No one ever noticed when you reached that same milestone. No one praised you, and you were a kid just like that, once. You were innocent and you loved your parents and wanted to impress them. Having children makes it easier to realize what sort of treatment a person deserves just for being human. I know @Vaikeasti has kids, so this could be an additional strategy: ask oneself, "how should i talk to my children when they achieve something? how about when they struggle, or when their accomplishments are less than perfect? how would i want other adults (e.g. teachers) to speak to my children? And then turn around and realize that you are a human, too, even if you are a bit older, and you deserve someone to tell you, "well, it was worthwhile in and of itself that you tried; it took a lot of bravery and even though you weren't first, you still did very well in X part and learned something just from being part in the event," rather than "sigh look at this, why am i not suprised, you should have done Y, can't you ever get it right." For most loving parents, asking themselves, "what if my child was struggling with this" or "would i want my child to be treated this way" helps a lot with recapturing a sense of self-esteem.

Vaikeasti
Posts: 110
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Re: Vaikeasti to ERE - Family Journal

Post by Vaikeasti »

Thank you ertyu, AxelHeyst and disk_poet!
I've gotten a lot to think about from these and really appreciate all of it.
It's a really important notion from ertyu, how important it is being present and saying to yourself that where you are is good and fine.
And thank you Axel Heyst for pointing out that trying to achieve everything at once is a recipe for disappointment.
It's important to remember to be kind towards yourself and only take small steps. I'm trying out breaking stuff into more manageable pieces as many of you suggested.
Also disk_poets awesome way of bridging this with the ERE book! Concentrate on the process. That really resonates with me. Also I think this gives me a small glimpse of the "step step step...just one more step" talk of long distance runners.
I wish you well ertyu. I'm sure a lot of the way I talk to myself and view things has been learned. I've noticed similarities with the way my siblings and parents talk and act, especially under pressure.

I feel like I have enough dissatisfaction (I still see some good things in current situations, so maybe I'm wrong?)
I have no clear idea what the future will bring and that really scares me.
Because I can't decide on a goal I am lacking of a plan to get from here to there.
I'm working on my liabilities, noticing them and decoupling if easily possible.
(Referencing this ERE blog post.)

ERE with small kids
As I'm not energetic like a Duracell bunny, and not into fashion or clothes in general, I've been surprised by the amount of clothing I need to provide to my kids.
If I get one good winter coat for myself I'm warm for the next ten or so years.
But if I get a fitting winter coat for a three year old the chances are high it's not going to fit them next winter.
Kids feet can grow three sizes per year so the need to get bigger footwear is constant. A size up every three months... I'm no longer puzzled by the stories of children walking in too big or too small shoes.
First you need to figure out what the child needs, then what is it called, then find out how that garments size is measured, then measure your child, then start looking for it, and keep measuring that child because otherwise the clothes will be too small when you finally do get them.
And typically I'm running so slow that when I figure out a need the need is instant, or like, they would have needed it yesterday.
Parent shame away folks. Or better yet, if you have any helpful hints how to tackle this, I'd be grateful.

In short:
Success:
  • Did some cleaning
  • Laundry under control at the moment, pretty nicely on autopilot
  • We've started taking our composting waste to the cabin to actually compost it our self
  • Arranged a thesis "workshop" with a friend
  • Kids' birthday picnic and other arrangements turned out well (but this continuous safety regulated small batch partying is a bit tiresome)
  • Gratitude diary for over two weeks with friends
  • Played some chess with the kids (they wanted to!)
  • Participated in a sustainability webinar (like, actually commented, would've not said anything if not online)
  • My kids love building with Lego's and listening to cassettes
  • Sauna with the kids (they really like it, and they are both delightfully different in their preferences)
  • Baking with the kids (pumpkin cake and citrus cake and bread rolls)
  • Daily messaging with friends (sill to do: daily talking to friends)
  • Managed to build a compassionate inner voice for a few days
  • Started the process of arranging free time for myself by (gasp!) asking for help from relatives
  • Arranged an adults only day for SO's birthday
  • Had a conversation about long term goals with SO
Room for improvement:
  • Spent two hours with my thesis and had difficulties eating and sleeping for weeks after that
  • Went shopping (without a plan) with the kids (but took a warm meal with us, which we ended up eating at home, but it was a good proof of concept)
  • Went clothes shopping with the kids (overspent and way too much impulse buys)
  • No sweets challenge totally ruined by the birthday partying (more like daily sweets after the first party)
  • Exercise has not really happened (but I have been running up the stairs almost daily)
  • Life feels pretty overwhelming at the moment so I've been trying to ignore it (not a useful strategy)
  • I'd like to read stuff (even the forums) more but I've been lacking the energy for it (just noticed we've lost Jason here too)
  • I'd like to be a better person, and a better ERE'er, but instead of trying my best, I'm trying to do as little as possible
Risks taken:
  • Spent time with relatives
  • Took part in a dinner meeting
  • An outing with the kids to see animals (ended up eating out because my packed lunch was not good for the cold weather)
  • Arranged parties and meetups with friends and relatives
  • Asked for a small raise at work even though the thesis is not finished and I don't have much work to do (Got a raise)
Played it safe:
  • Deliberately still not doing everything that's expected of me
  • Refused some in person meetings
  • Demanded my therapy to continue online
  • Binging on David Burns's material so much I'm starting to hate it
Last edited by Vaikeasti on Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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