mooretrees journal

Where are you and where are you going?
shaz
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Location: Colorado, US

Re: mooretrees journal

Post by shaz »

Moving into the bus sounds so exciting!

Can you test things out by renting out your house for a while before you decide whether to sell it? Maybe even as an Airbnb if you don't want to worry about having to evict someone? If you decide to sell, there's usually a best time of the year to list a house in your market, so you may want to rent it out for a few months anyway.

My experience was that renting out my house made me want to get rid of it ASAP.

Western Red Cedar
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Re: mooretrees journal

Post by Western Red Cedar »

Really exciting updates on the bus! Lots of great advice here already about how to approach the opportunities.

My only additional suggestion is to take some time to really focus on the math for each option. For example, most real estate investors wouldn't necessarily use the cashflow to pay down their mortgage if they have a decent interest rate. Adding it back to the mortgage payment makes the cashflow look worse than it actually is.

I think all the advice about community, temperament for managing property, and future vision for your family is probably most important though.

Here is some music as you ponder your decision:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl9bvuAV-Ao

mooretrees
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Re: mooretrees journal

Post by mooretrees »

Thanks all for your responses and thought provoking questions. Specifically, @mountainfrugal asked a number of open ended questions that are milling around my noodle. I don't see us having a hard time transitioning back to this town if the bus didn't work out. I think learning about rental laws and maintenance sounds awful. I don't even have to ask DH how he feels about it. There is a strong possibility we'd simply end up moving any proceeds from the sale of this house to another property, but it's not exactly what I want to do in the near future. I'd like to live in the bus and get used to the pared down nature of that style of living. Fewer things to manage, less to clean, way less cash flow going out, all stuff that's attractive. I digress. I nodded my my head with @shaz's comment about renting it making her want to sell it. I don't think I want another part time job.

@wrc, I hadn't considered keeping the rental income as just profit. I'm considering what you wrote about the maths for both situations. It seems like an extra $700/month could be awesome, especially if I throw the towel in with this career and move to lower paid skill building work. Or continue working for a few years and be able to save a lot of money and cash flow our next property. Anyway, lots to consider. Also, loved the music!!!

mooretrees
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Re: mooretrees journal

Post by mooretrees »

Mastermind Group:

I've been part of the inaugural MMG and it's been a fantastic experience so far. The first meeting was really nerve wracking as I was so nervous to meet people and felt very exposed. That quickly passes and now I feel like I've got a group of smart, compassionate people who generously (and lovingly) push, help and support me. Plus, they're just about the only people I can speak the ERE language fluently with and that's such a relief. It has helped me feel somewhat 'normal' occasionally.

So, this will be our third session and I'm crafting my projects now.

The first is a deep dive into hard core minimalism. We're moving into the bus sometime this year and we need to cull our stuff down to essentials. I am thinking I'll approach this via the Marie Kondo approach. I have somewhat done her method before, but I didn't maintain it. DH has a garage full of tools and stuff that he'll have to cull or figure out storing, but my focus is the house.
The first step for Konmari method is clothes, so before the next mmg meeting I'll sort through mine and my son's clothing. I think DH will have his own timeframe for his personal stuff, but shared stuff will be up for grabs.

I do want to try and sell things that could turn a profit, but honestly, we don't have much 'nice' stuff. So, likely we'll be donating or throwing away stuff. If I can find the right person, then I'll connect them with our stuff, but I feel some urgency to make progress so that might not happen too often.

The second project is my fucking health. I just got back from sunny, bathing suit wearing Florida and I was shocked at what I looked like in my bathing suit. I've sorta known that I wasn't as strong as I used to be, but I hadn't realized how much muscle I'd lost until multiple days of wearing a bathing suit. I don't have clear goals for what success will be with this project so I'm brainstorming now.
Health is a very vague term so I need to also be clear what I'm working on. I definitely want to be more fit, more muscular, more capable of big adventures, more emotionally stable, more appreciative of my loved ones and happier.

Diet:
Any change in body composition is a combination of exercise and diet, with diet being the major contributor. What's that saying about not being to exercise away a bad diet? Or something to that effect. I've experimented with keto, paleo and intermittent fasting. The only one that has been sustainable for me is IF. I've been doing it for over a year now and it's just normal. However, I rarely fast more than 18 hrs and I think I can move the needle on that window of eating and see some fat loss. So, I'll try both of the following and see what seems more reasonable to actually maintain; 1) push my window of starting to eat from 11/noon to two everyday and 2) incorporate a 24 hour fast once a week. I'll try the later eating start time initially and see how that works.

Movement/Exercise:
I've started to really enjoy the kettlebell. So far, I've only learned swings, clean and press and goblet squats. I'm still experiencing neck pain with the cleans so I need to really focus on my shoulder position and do fewer reps until I'm more consistent with proper techniques. I'm going to try to add a new movement once a month. On my radar next is the Turkish getup. That seems quite complicated so I think a few weeks of low reps make sense. I've gotten a lot of use out of Mark Wildman's youtube channel but would appreciate another video trainers folks like who really stress proper technique. I've tried learning from books but videos are much better.

Yoga/repair;
I have used my body pretty heavily over the last decades without much dedicated maintenance. I need to spend time addressing weak/dysfunctional areas. For me those are hips, ankles and neck. I am using yoga for overall stretching and will be turning to Katy Bowman and my Pain Free book to address structural dysfunctions.

Potential Goals:
- Noticeable increase in muscle via measurements/photos/DH's feedback
- fitness related goals (run a half-marathon on my birthday, do 50 pushups, ect)
- regular habit of strength training/HIIT without focusing on a scale/BMI
- habit tracker focused on:
- IF timeline of eating
- number of workouts/stretching sessions

Lastly, I don't have clear strategies to improve my mental health. I hope that a regular exercise/yoga habit will provide some benefits in that area but I'm also considering a gratitude journal (shout out to WesternRedCedar for that idea), cold showers/wim hof breathing, and possibly therapy. I'm reluctant to start therapy without having attempted a regular exercise program. I absolutely believe therapy can be profoundly helpful, but I feel like I can make strides on my own if I actually try.

mooretrees
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Re: mooretrees journal

Post by mooretrees »

I've separated my MMG stuff from the rest of my rambling update that will follow.

Da bus:
DH is slowly making progress on the interior and I've decided that i need to be more involved in the project. This project has exposed some weaknesses of DH and I that I'd like to address. I'm not happy with the pace of the build and it has caused some serious damage to our relationship. So far it is at a stage that is not critical, but left unaddressed it absolutely could turn into a marriage ending situation. The ugly truths about me are that I'm very judgemental, critical and impatient. DH is VERY disorganized, bad at communicating, and has a really difficult time making efficient use of his time. So, one of my recent understandings is that we're not working to our strength as a couple in this project.

We work really well together and so I'm going to start seeing how I can help him. I think this will help us in multiple ways. Firstly, I will learn something about building and how difficult a project can be. That should help me be less critical of the slow progress. It's very difficult for DH to communicate the process to me, usually he tries but then gets bogged down in so much detail that I just can't follow. Secondly, I won't be a spectator and I'll be helpful (hopefully) which should speed the progress up. To date I haven't helped for various reasons. Childcare, lack of building skill, lack of good projects for me to help with are several reasons. I'm sorta unwilling to get a part time nanny, but maybe I'll look into it. I think what is more likely to happen is that we'll put our son in front of a movie and just not focus on how much he is watching.

Bees:
I've joined the Oregon Master Beekeeping program put on by Oregon Extension Service. https://extension.oregonstate.edu/mb
I am very pleased with the program so far. It is very organized and seems very thoughtful in crafting the best situation for people to succeed in beekeeping. It is a self-paced program with built-in mentorship. My location has a long standing group of experienced mentors that provide four full days of hands on learning. There are videos, reading and monthly informal zoom q/a's. I'm hoping to start a local group of beekeepers and see what I can do to promote/support our local community. I am SUPER excited about all of the learning ahead of me and really glad to have the structure of the beekeeping program to rely on for learning.

Job:

My last deep dive for the mastermind group focused on my exit strategy from my job. It's not a career I want anymore, but we need the income for the near future. I've been demoted from my leadership position without any notice. I take it as one or both of the following; there is still some retribution for my outspoken criticisms of current leadership and/or they only want full time folks in leadership positions. No way to know one way or another which one it is. I'm fine with the demotion. I now have less responsibility with the same pay. It also adds fuel to my desire to be untethered to that income stream. The key to the end of this career is to keep myself mentally healthy while still in this job. I'm not good at being quiet, but I think that needs to be my strategy going forward. Do my job, collect my paycheck, and build our savings so I can exit responsibly. Quietly prepare to leave and stay away from the toxic culture.

AxelHeyst
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Re: mooretrees journal

Post by AxelHeyst »

Have you read Driven to Distraction? I found it very helpful to shift my perspective towards DGF. It’s appropriate for me to get *frustrated* with her, but I no longer take it personally like I used to. Have squashed all hope of “how can we fix you”, which wasn’t reasonable, and have moved to “how do we (we!) set up systems, methods, etc for dealing/coping with what we’re actually working with and will never go away”. (Which is where it sounds like you’re at, but if there’s any of the former that book will help I think).

She’s not building our house on a deadline, though, so that’s a magnitude of frustration I haven’t had to deal with. I also have patience like a volcano - all is chill until of a sudden it isn’t, and then it’s an explosion of lava and incendiary ash clouds. Do not recommend.

mooretrees
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Re: mooretrees journal

Post by mooretrees »

@AH, got the book on hold and while I'm made progress absorbing the realities of adhd, I sure could use more help. Plus, when I learn something useful, DH hears all about it :lol: Thanks for the recommendation.

shaz
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Re: mooretrees journal

Post by shaz »

The bus conversion situation sounds challenging. It's good you have recognized the potential damage to your marriage and are taking steps to head it off. Can you contribute your organization skills even if you have other responsibilities pulling you away from some of the hands-on work?

Can you involve your son in some of the work? My parents built our house when I was 4 and they used to keep me busy for hours at a time doing things like picking up nails or rocks off the ground and putting them in a bucket. Or I would hand screws to my dad, simple things like that.

What's fueling your sense of urgency to finish the bus conversion?

Re: the fitness stuff, building muscle as step 1 might make losing fat easier.

7Wannabe5
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Re: mooretrees journal

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I've worked on quite a few different construction/renovation projects with quite a few different men. It's never easy. It sound like you are in the role of primary mover for this project. If this is the case, I think the details of what's going on or not going on with the project are less important to ascertain than what your husband's personal motivations for completing (or maybe even "not completing") the project might be.

Also, I get having to work and take care of your child, but I don't get how there were parts of the project where you couldn't be helpful, unless your husband has zero ability to offer direction to the point of not even being able to verbalize "You, woman, hold this here." Don't get me wrong, there are some definite "cons" to allowing yourself to be put in the role of "little helper dressed in his way too big cast-off overalls riding shotgun in the truck on yet another run to Home Depot", but in my experience successful completion of dirty day on the project together may often result in some pretty hawt sex after joint shower.

mooretrees
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Re: mooretrees journal

Post by mooretrees »

@shaz and @7w5, since your responses (thanks!) I realized I've thinking in black and white terms about my kiddo and the bus. So, yes, I'll try out incorporating him in simple chores or create a hammer bench or something of that ilk to test out his ability to be near us but not a huge distraction. I've also realized one simple fix is to work early in the morning when DH is still oh-so-slowly waking up. That will be hit or miss per the day but worth trying.

@7w5 I think the first long stretch of bus work involved so much welding that I sorta got used to not being able to help. And forgot to try and ask to help as we now had a pattern of me not helping.

I do think the main obstacles to DH finishing is his disorganization and his limited ability to plan ahead. With the example of AH living with us and knocking out projects easily (most of the time! cough door cough ) DH and I both realized that DH's way of meandering through projects is just one way of doing things. And while it can be fine for small projects, this is not a small project. That's why I think I can be useful if I have a deeper understanding of the smaller parts of the whole project are. I think I'll be more useful in the planning of what to do next even if I can't offer much help with the particulars. I'm not sure I'm explaining DH well. I've observed over the years that he has one of two approaches to the future. Wait and see (no point in planning as he lacks agency and feels like all plans can shift quickly so why bother) and literally no thinking about the future at all. So when a project has multiple layers and some things hinge on other things then I think he gets sorta lost. I think he's still doing a good job on this project, it's just that his slow pace is driving me crazy.

@shaz the urgency is both time based (bus has been in our driveway almost two years) and once we're outta this house it will be much easier to leave my job and get all sorts of weird with our lifestyle.

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Ego
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Re: mooretrees journal

Post by Ego »

Sometimes we don't realize what we've gotten ourselves into until we are halfway in. Is this his way of expressing doubts about the plan?

mooretrees
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Re: mooretrees journal

Post by mooretrees »

Ego wrote:
Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:30 pm
Sometimes we don't realize what we've gotten ourselves into until we are halfway in. Is this his way of expressing doubts about the plan?
I don’t think so*. I’m also realizing that he’s a weird perfectionist that doesn’t always care to finish projects.

There’s more to this story than just him, and I don’t want to only point fingers at him. Mainly trying to get my head right and be part of the process instead of a frustrated spectator.

*Now that I think about it, the long slog of the roof raise did wear him down and it was hard for him to get started sometimes on that never ending project.
Last edited by mooretrees on Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

AxelHeyst
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Re: mooretrees journal

Post by AxelHeyst »

I think getting involved in the process more is a productive idea. It’s not without dangers, of course, but getting a better understanding of how quickly dependencies and decisions turn into a hyper complex snarl of nested subprojects where every move threatens to effect every other subproject can’t but help.

I might be off base here, but I think that with some complex projects the benefit from organization isn’t linear. It’s either organize the snot out of it, and spend a significant amount of energy maintaining the organization system but also avoid mistakes and generally have it run smoothly…. Or turn off the Navi computer and Use the Force. Somewhere in the middle just combines the slowness of spending time attempting to organize it with the utter chaos of not being organized enough. Command the waves to part or surf them.

Reminds me of a conversation I had with my brother. He’s a phD computer scientist running a team tasked with [something nerdy af] at a unicorn cybersecurity firm. I mentioned scrum style task estimation to him. He scoffed, and said the idea that tasks can be even remotely accurately estimated ahead of time is a fiction. Especially when you’re inventing everything. (Like doors! ;)

mooretrees
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Re: mooretrees journal

Post by mooretrees »

@AxelHeyst I do agree with you on your main points here. Me helping him to be organized is sorta a waste as it does require ongoing commitment to putting those tools away. It was a fun idea. I think a small effort to be lightly organized in the school bus might make sense. Anyway, it's messy in there and that irritates me and shouldn't take too much time to make it a wee bit better.

As far as your brother's story, well, I'm going to pretend I didn't read that! At the end of the day, DH is trying and it's really more about me finding a way to sooth myself.

I've got the easy task of cleaning up the tongue and grove wood that is going to be our bedroom ceiling. And adding a chamfer to it. I don't totally understand why I'm doing the chamfer but I'm figuring it will make sense when install the ceiling. First time using a planer so that's cool. I'm hoping I can do the staining as well. Then we might be able to start working on the installing the ceiling insulation and actual ceiling! Would be really helpful as it's quite chilly here lately.

Big news, we finally got the correct title and DH did all the paperwork for the DMV and it is a registered RV. We've got plates and all. That is a big relief as when we realized that we had an older title we didn't know how long the process would take to get it figured out. About a month as it turns out.

Gilberto de Piento
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Re: mooretrees journal

Post by Gilberto de Piento »

mooretrees wrote:
Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:46 am
I've got the easy task of cleaning up the tongue and grove wood that is going to be our bedroom ceiling. And adding a chamfer to it. I don't totally understand why I'm doing the chamfer but I'm figuring it will make sense when install the ceiling.
If the ceiling is curved (typical of a school bus) the chamfer might be needed so the boards can fit together in a curved shape. Otherwise they may only be able to be put together flat. Not a carpenter or woodworker though so I'm not sure.

AxelHeyst
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Re: mooretrees journal

Post by AxelHeyst »

mooretrees wrote:
Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:46 am
@AxelHeyst I do agree with you on your main points here. Me helping him to be organized is sorta a waste as it does require ongoing commitment to putting those tools away. It was a fun idea. I think a small effort to be lightly organized in the school bus might make sense. Anyway, it's messy in there and that irritates me and shouldn't take too much time to make it a wee bit better.
I apologize for inserting a graph into the sanctity of your journal, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't being unclear. I think it's like this:
Image

I think there's a significant benefit to e.g. keeping the bus and the workspaces organized, without overdoing it and putting tools away he's still using. Clearing away cut-offs and debris piles, and trying to make sure at least the piles are of like- or related-kind tools, could make a really big difference too. It all reduces the amount of mental RAM it takes to think through the design, reduces the overall overload of the project. Also working on having conversations that aren't about you getting a time estimate from him, but helping him talk/think through dependencies and impacts of what the current active project is, also great.

The "dip" in that graph comes from when you try to, maybe, set up a big poster on the wall in the living room and draw out what's going to happen when, and it's useful for like a day or two, but then you don't update it, and then it's just this big reminder about how daunting the whole thing is. Organization without follow-through at this level can just daylight how overwhelming it all is. That's to be avoided.

The right end of the graph would be like if you had a kung fu scrum master come in and effortlessly organize everything that made it feel instinctual and natural, but somehow magically made everything happen faster.

mooretrees
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Re: mooretrees journal

Post by mooretrees »

AxelHeyst wrote:
Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:19 pm
I apologize for inserting a graph into the sanctity of your journal, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't being unclear. I think it's like this:
Image

I think there's a significant benefit to e.g. keeping the bus and the workspaces organized, without overdoing it and putting tools away he's still using. Clearing away cut-offs and debris piles, and trying to make sure at least the piles are of like- or related-kind tools, could make a really big difference too. It all reduces the amount of mental RAM it takes to think through the design, reduces the overall overload of the project. Also working on having conversations that aren't about you getting a time estimate from him, but helping him talk/think through dependencies and impacts of what the current active project is, also great.

The "dip" in that graph comes from when you try to, maybe, set up a big poster on the wall in the living room and draw out what's going to happen when, and it's useful for like a day or two, but then you don't update it, and then it's just this big reminder about how daunting the whole thing is. Organization without follow-through at this level can just daylight how overwhelming it all is. That's to be avoided.
The first and only graph to ever invade my journal, :lol: !! Yes and yes. I have tried the poster on the wall approach and it only causes friction, not the good type! I spent 20 or so minutes recently moving small piles of extra wood to one spot, moving packs of screws to the same place and so on. Lightly keeping the actual workspace more clear and possibly cutting down an irritating search for screws and also reducing trip hazards. Then he sorted the wood I'd collected and pulled out pieces he thought were useful and I burned the rest. That's what I'll focus on as we go forward as it was that sweet spot around 6/7 on your graph. Worth repeating as necessary.

Married2aSwabian
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Re: mooretrees journal

Post by Married2aSwabian »

mooretrees wrote:
Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:21 pm
The ugly truths about me are that I'm very judgemental, critical and impatient. DH is VERY disorganized, bad at communicating, and has a really difficult time making efficient use of his time.
Sounds like you have a lot of exciting plans with the bus!

The son and young family of friends of our ours did a similar project last year with a short schoolie. Unfortunately, their travel plans ended quite early - after just two months- as their 4 YO daughter needed more structure than the nomadic life could afford.

I’m also very judgemental and can be impatient and DW is pretty far to the I side on the I/E spectrum. It sounds like the dynamic for you and DH can be the same: the more the planner / doer / judge pushes, the more the quiet introvert clams up. For me, mindfulness has really helped to learn about compassion and also not judging myself so harshly. It’s amazing how the dynamic with DW changes when she really feels listened to and understood. In our case, this takes compassionate listening (I shut my damn pie hole) with much additional “golden silence” to wait for what comes next from her side.

It sounds like you have a good thing going, I hope your whole tribe enjoys the final push to be “on the bus”. ;)

horsewoman
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Re: mooretrees journal

Post by horsewoman »

My husband is equally disorganized in his projects (ADHD at its finest!). Working together has been rough, since I detest standing around doing nothing. Which I do a lot because no steps are planned ahead.
But I've learned that he gets a lot more done just by me being there and keeping him on track, offering gentle suggestions (without heat or pressure) and being useful in a general way. Do I still feel that I waste my time? To some extent, yes. There are always other things I'd rather do. On the other hand, DH almost single-handedly brought our ruin of a farm into order, and I want to help. Since my "grounding presence" seems to help, I can do that. He gets easily overwhelmed (no wonder, I would too without a plan!) but I'm usually able to be the voice of reason, thereby keeping him on track. I suppose it gets lonely if one works at such a huge project alone all day - DH appreciates the company, and me showing that I think his work is important. I only need to turn off my "inner "optimizer and we get along swimmingly while working.

When our daughter was small it was easier in a way, because we both orbited around him while he worked on the farm, but it was clear that my main job was to keep the child safe and happy. Now my job is less clear-cut, but we are better at communication these days. I like to joke that after the 7 years of renovation, our relationship is forged in fire. A project like that either makes you or breaks you, I suppose.

mooretrees
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Re: mooretrees journal

Post by mooretrees »

Married2aSwabian wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:44 am

I’m also very judgemental and can be impatient and DW is pretty far to the I side on the I/E spectrum. It sounds like the dynamic for you and DH can be the same: the more the planner / doer / judge pushes, the more the quiet introvert clams up. For me, mindfulness has really helped to learn about compassion and also not judging myself so harshly. It’s amazing how the dynamic with DW changes when she really feels listened to and understood. In our case, this takes compassionate listening (I shut my damn pie hole) with much additional “golden silence” to wait for what comes next from her side.
Wow, thanks for the very useful suggestion. Our dynamic is the same and I have noted that when I'm not pushing my emotions on DH, or he isn't feeling judged, then he can really relax into sharing with me. I will focus more on waiting and trying to approach him without pushing. Thanks for sharing your success, I hope I can report back my own!

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