ERE VS communism

Should you squeeze the toothpaste tube in the middle or from the end?
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7Wannabe5
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Re: ERE VS communism

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:10 am

@tonyedgecombe:

I don't entirely disagree, but there is this huge disconnect between 1920s economic models which were based on weak analogy to physics through use of calculus vs. 21st century processes which can be based on numerical methods or applied systems analysis.

Also, (Thanks to my homeboy Claude Shannon, Go Michigan!) the cost of information has become so minimal, customized goods with single dot in space supply/demand curves are proliferating rapidly. For instance, I am pretty darn certain that I could open up another tab on this browser and within 5 minutes purchase an aqua blue, French cut woman's t-shirt emblazoned with a picture of Claude Shannon super-imposed on a forest-green, mitten-shaped outline of Michigan. This reality is equally applicable to the labor market since, for example, almost every Uber driver with whom I get a ride also has an account with Lyft.

iopsi
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Re: ERE VS communism

Post by iopsi » Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:26 am

tonyedgecombe wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:16 am
Mises argument wasn't that you couldn't have the forethought to produce those pyjamas, rather that you couldn't value them correctly. I'm saying that perhaps we have the computational ability to do that now.
Would there even be "Sponge-Bob Fleece Christmas Theme Footy Pajamas" under communism, and consequently demand for it?
Supply of new goods can create demand for them (where there was none before), but if the means production are centralized i don't think you can have such creative use of those means (and therefore new goods).
Decentralized, private, ownership of the means of production is likely much superior at creating variety and novelty in the market.

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Re: ERE VS communism

Post by prognastat » Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:58 am

I would say ERE isn't directly related to communism or capitalism though capitalism does make it easier through the ability to generate and invest capital allowing one to generate a larger amount of capital than needed in a short period of time and in turn live off it for the rest of your life.

However ERE is a mindset and can of course be applied under communism too and would leave you better than you would have otherwise.

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BRUTE
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Re: ERE VS communism

Post by BRUTE » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:40 am

tonyedgecombe wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:16 am
Mises argument wasn't that you couldn't have the forethought to produce those pyjamas, rather that you couldn't value them correctly. I'm saying that perhaps we have the computational ability to do that now.
this is misunderstanding the argument. Mises was not saying "there is not enough computing power". Mises was saying "it is impossible to do this at all, even in theory". as brute said in his last comment.

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7Wannabe5
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Re: ERE VS communism

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:23 am

I think it could be argued that producers and entrepreneurs often rely as much on intuition as price signals.

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vexed87
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Re: ERE VS communism

Post by vexed87 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:36 am

Here is some sort-of-relevant reading by JMG:
https://www.ecosophia.net/systems-suck-less/

As others alluded said, Marxism as dreamed about by KM never got its chance, it was a Utopian vision, in any case it was subverted by authoritarians, communism from above was never going to work. I personally believe the failing of Marxism was primarily an issue of ambition of scale. Early human societies tended to be egalitarian, based on communal ownership and sharing, aka communist. Small cooperatives, anarcho-syndicalist-esque organisations, and artisan fraternities such as stonemasons guilds, have existed throughout the history of capitalism and they will in the future, no doubt once the staggering interconnectedness of the globalised economy unravels, they will find their niche once more. I'm not sure communism can function at the level of state considering the scale and complexity of modern civilisation. Hence, why we long abandoned it for other top down political systems that can *cope* with our staggering numbers and demands on the distribution of resources today.

Systems of social organisation are a reflection of the environmental conditions in which they operate. When the cost of transporting goods long distance outweighs the cost of producing the same or equivalent goods locally (whether it be carbon taxes, rationing, rising cost of transportation fuels or resource shortages that trigger it) political power will shift away from current GDP obsessed economic management practices to some other social system with the aims of stabilising and intensifying the conditions on which the reborn fledgling economy will thrive.

Edit: Thinking of OPs question another way, if ERE helps reduce your dependence on consumerism and thus limits the way in which you can be exploited by those with (almost) exclusive access to the means of production, by replacing it with skills and other forms of capital, whether ERE works best in communism or capitalism is a moot point, no longer does it matter who owns the means of production, because they means of production is all but irrelevant if you need to work only a small time to acquire specialist goods from the market/state/local tribe!
Last edited by vexed87 on Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:28 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: ERE VS communism

Post by tonyedgecombe » Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:38 am

BRUTE wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:40 am
this is misunderstanding the argument. Mises was not saying "there is not enough computing power". Mises was saying "it is impossible to do this at all, even in theory". as brute said in his last comment.
I'm sure it did look impossible at the time, even in theory. Without knowledge of developments in computational ability I'm arguing that is no longer a reasonable assertion. You have to remember this wasn't a mathematical proof, it was a political statement as much as anything.

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daylen
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Re: ERE VS communism

Post by daylen » Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:46 am

I do not think it is impossible. Just extremely impractical. If the leader was a cluster of trillions of mobile, communicating nano-machines, then it could disperse itself inside people and know everything everyone knows and more. The information could be relayed to a computer server for further processing. Is it just a giant super-organism now?

Here we get into trouble with what qualifies as agency.

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BRUTE
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Re: ERE VS communism

Post by BRUTE » Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:43 am

tonyedgecombe wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:38 am
I'm sure it did look impossible at the time, even in theory. Without knowledge of developments in computational ability I'm arguing that is no longer a reasonable assertion. You have to remember this wasn't a mathematical proof, it was a political statement as much as anything.
for the third time, it is not about the computation. it is literally impossible to do, even with infinite computing power.

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Re: ERE VS communism

Post by tonyedgecombe » Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:15 am

BRUTE wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:43 am
for the third time, it is not about the computation. it is literally impossible to do, even with infinite computing power.
You keep saying that without saying why, it almost seems like a religious statement.

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BRUTE
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Re: ERE VS communism

Post by BRUTE » Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:54 pm

Wiki link provided first time mentioned, conversation too boring to continue. abort.

Jason
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Re: ERE VS communism

Post by Jason » Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:33 am

daylen wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 1:01 pm
@Jason I agree, but I wonder if it is easier to teach people about why these axioms are flawed or that centralized control is not sustainable since every node in the network is subject to entropy and information asymmetry.
I am not versed enough to address the topic through such a microscope..

But before doing such, it just seems to me that it would be beneficial to take a step backwards in order to view it through a "macroscope," specifically that Marxism is not a theory of economics. It is a theory of history that postulates history is solely determined by economic forces, specifically class/social struggle. And this history unfolds throughout time in a dialectal manner - thesis/antithesis/synthesis.

Therefore, whomever your audience is, they confront the underpinnings of the thought system before moving onto the specific ramifications of believing/not believing it. If they believe the underpinnings are an accurate view of history, they are compelled to unify the socio/policitical/economic outworkings of it. If they don't believe the underpinnings, they are compelled to explain why the outworking do not comport. This, to me, is the best way to distinguish the philosophy from the inevitable faulty human implementation of the philosophy.

I am not an expert on JLF's thought system or his ERE system. But from my basic understanding, it does not require one to adapt a specific view of human history in order for it either to be implemented in a successful manner or for it to make basic sense. To me, that is why the title of this thread pronounces a false dichotomy. I am not stating that ERE is a mere lifestyle decision, I do not think it is. But I think it can be discussed in a manner that does not force one to reveal their deepest "religious" commitments, which I believe a discussion of Marxism requires. At least an informed one.

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daylen
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Re: ERE VS communism

Post by daylen » Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:44 am

@Jason I respect that view. I am usually trying to condense whole fields of knowledge into a bare-bones framework of rules without regards to the historical dialect which generated the ideas in the first place. Your posts often provide me with just the right dose of historical awareness (Te) to get me to reconsider that approach in favor of adding on some contextual bulk which reduces false interpretation.

Thesis: Social structures or human ecology can be simulated by reducing humans/agents to points on a graph subject to certain constraints. This network can be mapped onto different spaces that account for the underlying variation in resource distribution.

Antithesis: This kind of simulation is subject to false constraints and faulty reasoning, therefore it is probably best to review the dialectic history in order to gain a working intuition on how such simulations should play out and to increase awareness of possible pit-falls.

Synthesis: Use this historical intuition to guide the construction of several simulations which can then further add to the dialect.

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