Lending a girlfriend money

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suomalainen
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Re: Lending a girlfriend money

Post by suomalainen » Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:46 pm

Best. Thread. Ever.

+1 to Augustus.

But yes, this is a personal decision and as a voyeur, I am interested in what @giskard decides. Please don’t leave us hanging.

No judgment tho. There’s no right answer. Just curious as to how he decides to resolve this situation. My opinion, expressed above, is my own and is therefore wholly irrelevant. Petting two of my three cats (the third is sometimes is a cold b!tch, but when she isn’t, damn is she cute) this evening who were laying on my bed as I changed from my work clothes, I did wonder whether I wouldn’t pay $1500 to extend their lives for a good number of years. Prolly not if the writing was on the wall, but a much tougher question if earlier in life. Great trolley question, @giskard.

Augustus
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Re: Lending a girlfriend money

Post by Augustus » Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:57 pm

Clarice wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:33 pm
@Augustus:
You are not an INTJ, right? You are way too emotionally intelligent... :lol:
Haha, thanks :) INTJ is what I've always scored and identify with, any wisdom is of the burnt hand variety. Been dumped many times, had people cheat me in business, and a very bad business partner that ended in threats and lawyers. Sink or swim.

hojo-e
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Re: Lending a girlfriend money

Post by hojo-e » Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:54 pm

For those who are adamantly against, what amount would make it okay to give her the money? $100? $500?

How long would the relationship have to be to make it okay to give her the $1500? 1 year? Marriage? Never?

He seems to respect her despite her inability to save. What if she is the love of his life?

At what point does extremely rational thinking become irrational?

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 110033.htm
"Not acknowledged enough are potential undesired personal and societal consequences associated with high self-control and with the pursuit of higher self-control. Examples include inflexible behavioral patterns, over-emphasis on norm-adherence at the expense of personal discretion, and strict emphasis on cold and rational thinking while overlooking intuition and emotional inputs. These tendencies carry all sorts of potentially problematic implications on information processing, decision-making, as well as social and interpersonal behavior of individuals high in self-control" says Dr. Uziel.

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C40
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Re: Lending a girlfriend money

Post by C40 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:42 pm

What drama.

We must have updates Giskard. Even ones from tiny little signals, since that's sometimes how women communicate. Did the girlfriend act in some slightly different way? Did she pet the cat and look at you? Is she mad? HOW MAD? Is she giving you the silent treatment? Did she just kiss you less enthusiastically? OH, GOD!!

What % would you say are you currently in favor of 'volunteering' to loan the money? We will need updates on that too.


----------------------------

Before I offer more advice, a disclaimer: I'm not all that great at relationships.

Now,.. if you're pretty darn sure that you don't want to pay for the cat, or if you're just wavering (which, obviously, you're in one of those camps): first - as Augustus explained don't say that the cat isn't worth it or the care isn't worth it or try to convince her of anything. Telling her you're simply uncomfortable with it is true and simple and good.

You could take that up a notch on vulnerability/honesty and pre-emptively tell her how you're feeling.(details in next paragraph) This is good on two fronts:
1 - by bringing it up, you relieve her of the burden and investment of working up the courage to ask you - and the higher level of disappointment that would come from you saying no after she's invested in asking.
2 - By being vulnerable and also deserving of empathy, you can possibly put yourself more on her team in this whole thing.

Basically, what you do is bring up the cat, and the cost of care, and how it's a lot and she doesn't have the money, and you totally spill your guts about how you feel uncomfortable to volunteer the money and have been wondering if she will ask and if she's already mad you haven't volunteered it, and you feel sort of weird/guilty about feeling that way,.. and you're getting stressed out about this, and feeling uncomfortable, and you're stressing extra because of the potential impact on the relationship, and you're not sure what to do and you don't want to screw up the relationship with her, and you're asking people for advice, and so on. (now, don't make this a roller coaster for her, clarify early on that this stuff you're saying isn't a lead up to you offering the money).

I'm maybe not explaining this well, but the possibility here is to move yourself over into the circle of - ahhh, what do I call it - people to feel sorry for/empathize with? (instead of you being over in the other circle of "cold miser moneybags who won't spare some of his pile of money to save one of the most important living beings in the world to me"... you need to get your ass out of that circle!). This isn't about you saying that you're the one who is in a harder position, it's about you joining the "hard position" group. It's also about you taking the lead in making sure you two have the important conversations.

By opening up to her, you could help her understand that you don't want to pay for the dog AND that you're not a cold-hearted miser AND that you care a lot about your relationship with her, you could maybe strengthen the relationship with her, you could possibly trigger her to move forward with locating the money in some other way (her borrowing the money from elsewhere, her working extra, getting pet healthcare insurance, or so on). You can also clarify that you're ready and willing to help in various other ways - taking care of the cat, taking it to the vet if she can't, shoving pills down it's throat if that's hard for her, helping out with some of the other parts of her life (logistical, chores, etc) to make this time easier for her, etc.

An edit to try to clarify: I don't mean to spill your guts in a sissy/wimpy way, or that it should result in her feeling sorry for you or anything like that. I basically just mean - she's your girlfriend, and when you get into times like these, where there is potentially confusing expectations and where each of you are/may be thinking about what the other expects you to do and that they may get mad about it - you should be a man, sit down with her, and talk about it.
Last edited by C40 on Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:05 am, edited 2 times in total.

thegreatvoid
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Re: Lending a girlfriend money

Post by thegreatvoid » Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:33 am

that´s why you should always date a woman with a higher income than you and never disclose any signs of wealth. It´s difficult, because as men we have been raised as human doings and not as human beings. The world judges us for what we have or can do for other people,

unfortunaltley we even see ourselves through this mirror

wheatstate
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Re: Lending a girlfriend money

Post by wheatstate » Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:54 am

The answer is put this thread behind a paywall.
$1 to read. $10 to post.
This cat is getting the best medical treatment money can buy on Monday!
Thanks for TGIF reading.

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Viktor K
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Re: Lending a girlfriend money

Post by Viktor K » Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:00 am

Paycheck to paycheck significant other will make it harder to ERE. So definitely good advice to considere pros vs. cons of this relationship. However, since the question isn’t whether you should date her but whether you should offer help financially, I imagine you’ve already given some thought towards that.

Otherwise, this situation is probably a wake up call or at least shines a spotlight on the long term viability of your relationship versus the probability that you reach your personal/financial goals sooner/later/ever.

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Jin+Guice
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Re: Lending a girlfriend money

Post by Jin+Guice » Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:19 am

Here's what you do:

1) Pay for the surgery.
2) Dump your girlfriend.

ICE FUCKING COLD. That's the only way to live though my man ;) . You've got to get rid of a girlfriend it's clear from the OP you don't really like. Her behavior is unacceptable. Why are you always lending her money? Never lend anyone money.

Why pay for the surgery? I have a real soft spot for cats.

The answer doesn't change if you swap genders or animals.

Fellow dudes: For a bunch of married frugality nerds, y'all seem to find women extremely expensive.

thegreatvoid
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Re: Lending a girlfriend money

Post by thegreatvoid » Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:33 am

Jin+Guice wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:19 am
Here's what you do:

Fellow dudes: For a bunch of married frugality nerds, y'all seem to find women extremely expensive.
first you get the money, then you get the power, then you get the woman...

it´s in that order for a reason :lol: :lol:

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7Wannabe5
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Re: Lending a girlfriend money

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:08 am

I am going to argue against offering to pay without being asked and making yourself vulnerable by revealing feelings. The GF is in a situation where she has to choose between caring for herself financially or caring for her pet medically. If the OP offers the loan, he will be weighing in on the side of caring for the pet. IOW, the offer will simply exacerbate her guilt if she chooses to care for herself financially instead. Also, if the OP chooses to reveal his own vulnerabilities at this juncture, then the poor girl might feel like she now has the additional burden of comforting her BF on top of caring for her cat. Sometimes people who are too soft-hearted subconsciously choose to form relationships with people who are more hard-hearted in their behavior, because the balance will be in better alignment with self-aware self- care.

Stahlmann
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Re: Lending a girlfriend money

Post by Stahlmann » Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:22 am

To be more serious, I wouldn't pay (or loan) and said her she shouldn't pay either.

I understand that communicating "Love is selfish act about making yourself feel good with help of other person/being/animal", you would need date some of Ayn Rand adherents :lol:.

I'd suggest getting new pet after death of this one. There're plenty of them. I'm also a bit outraged that people pay so much attention to life of special cat compared to fellow humans (this could be sign of some kind of moral advancement in rich societies, but I tend to disagree). For example, I saw last month my grandmom crying after she mentioned death of their cat (which happened this year)... I must say for first week after visit I thought it was some kind emotional manipulation, but later I understood some people can react that way or simply love animals.

Nowadays, as young ERE adept I go with "agree (and amplify)"-technique as somebody questions my financial choices ("Yes, I'm real cheapskate").

If there's nice way to communicate my stance (in a relationship, because this is the real kicker here), I'd read it about it.

EDIT: Hmmm. As "women can change their mind very often" :lol:, with your networth I'd pay it outright if all conditions being met:
0) due to overall situation you have problems with finding GFs (working 12h daily in 95% male dominated field, not being attractive enough, bored with too picky chicks)
1) the realtionships is promising in general
2) she's willing to work more serious job

To be honest, as a contrarian I wanted to defend this poor chick after initial MGTOW comments :lol: (even before my first post). Also I had some kind feelings that if you close in 500k in NW and you date somebody who can't keep a job is... like asking for problems or you simply trying to exploit this naive lady based on reading some articles how to pick up women in the internet :roll: ("You exploit her"- argument hasn't been posted yet. I'm bit suprised).

EDIT2:
Ok, maybe my following stance is based on perspective "poor in ladies, poor in money, poor in skills".
This'll be most crazy (part of) reply in this topic, but.. with such capital I'd go to Second or Third Worrld countries with bags of PrEPs (do they have this for other STDs? yep, efficiency isn't probably 100% anyway) and have fun with women till.. I'd get bored and I could solely focus in finding partner with more morally advanced criterias in my home country :lol:

Interestingly! This is good moment for discussion of free market vs regulated one :D Prostitutes before I WW in my country needed to provide book on their health. I tried to apply this criterion nowadays and... searched through "industry" websites and no one is willing to provide latest tests :roll: (apart comments like "everything is OK with my health"). Smart asses could say that : you can simply ask them... but who is going to resign from such "easy" money free willingly and with such horny clients? :lol:
(Intelligent, at least in my huble opinion) international clients of sexual workers, UNITE! :lol:
Last edited by Stahlmann on Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:29 am, edited 3 times in total.

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7Wannabe5
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Re: Lending a girlfriend money

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:47 am

@Stahlman:

I think my 3-some analogy was a bit towards the “you exploit her” argument. However, I would note for the record that I am more willing to accept financial support or gifts from a man if I am either head over heels for him OR I know he is not head over heels for me. Just natural extension of tendency to allow a man to buy my coffee if I am open to second date and accept his offer of jacket if I am open to possibility of sex OR expect him to pay for dinner if he is going on and on about his ex and/or checking out the waitress rather paying attention to me.

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7Wannabe5
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Re: Lending a girlfriend money

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:09 am

Anyways, this discussion will be rendered moot by approaching collapse of economic system which will result in dogs and cats having to go back to work out-of-doors guarding hogs and hunting rats in corn cribs in order to earn their keep. As Zola made very clear in several of his novels, romance and sentiment will also likely be luxuries not to be afforded under such circumstances except by the lucky few.

Jason
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Re: Lending a girlfriend money

Post by Jason » Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:31 am

In a time/value scenario, if a six month relationship warrants $1500 loan for cat surgery, a one year anniversary would be like "I need one of your kidneys." 18 months would be "I need you to kill my boss." By 2 years, the cat is dead. So by the time she decides not to marry him, Giskard will be broke fugitive pushing a piss bag to his backyard in order to bury a $1500 dead fucking cat.

Campitor
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Re: Lending a girlfriend money

Post by Campitor » Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:28 pm

Perhaps looking at things with a different perspective can divine an optimal decision:
  • What if the roles were flipped? A woman has been dating a man for only 6 months. She repeatedly loans him rent money which he pays back promptly. But now he's hinting that she should help pay for his (note that co-ownership isn't implied) cat's surgery. Does the role reversal change your opinion on what should be done?
  • Why is she living in an apartment that requires her to consistently borrow money? How was she able to afford the apartment prior to the relationship?
  • If she was single and with no means for borrowing money from a friend, would she take out a bank loan or let the cat die?
  • What if the person needing money was a close male friend? Would you let your friend borrow rent money consistently? How would you feel if he started hinting that you should give/lend cash for his pet's surgery?
  • Why are you dating someone who is so needy?
  • Why aren't you communicating your values on money to this person? Do you feel hostage to the image she has of you and that your husbandry of financial resources would be a turn off so you hide who you really are?

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Lillailler
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Re: Lending a girlfriend money

Post by Lillailler » Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:47 pm

It's not about the cat. It is about the risks of living paycheck to paycheck: suddenly she really wants to spend $1500 but she hasn't got it, and one way or another the consequences will be bad. It seems to me this is the type of event people learn from, sometimes. You could consider just asking "What are you going to do about your cat?" to bring it to a head. The outcome could be an insight in taking responsibility - if you can't afford vet bills, either buy insurance or don't have a pet; and build up a buffer so you can cope with an unexpected bill of any kind. Or maybe you get dumped.

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Kriegsspiel
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Re: Lending a girlfriend money

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:29 pm

I believe it's immoral to deprive hell of another furry demon.

No loan.

UK-with-kids
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Re: Lending a girlfriend money

Post by UK-with-kids » Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:27 am

Hi giskard

When I was with a girlfriend about 10 years ago she had a dog which she had only recently acquired. I soon found out she was also in a lot of debt, but this hadn't stopped her making the irresponsible decision of buying a puppy of a breed that can live for 20 years.

I often read blogs and posts with advice that you should stay away from financially irresponsible people if you want to be financially independent. However, this girlfriend has become my long term partner and mother of my children and things have worked out very well. I'm very glad that I didn't RUN as some posters have suggested in your case. In our early days I was effectively subsidising her financially, but now we're pretty much on the same page.

How is this possible?

I am INTJ and she is ESFP. As we've come to understand one another we've been able to achieve more together than either of us could have done on our own. For example, as spontaneous (impulsive) person she has started a business whereas I've always been stuck in the starting blocks trying to make sure everything was well planned, and too risk averse. Her business is chaotically organised but is making a lot of money, and because I've been financially responsible we had enough savings that she could quit her job and work full-time on it. If it was just me then there would be no business. If it was just her then she would never have had the financial security to quit her job and take the business to the next level.

It's also interesting that she has become very interested in environmentalism and not wasting resources, e.g. when we first met she spent £100s per month on clothes, but now she is concerned about waste in the fashion industry and only buys second-hand quality items. Whereas I did the same thing because I don't want to waste money.

My point is that differently wired people can be very happy together, but you have to have a lot of difficult conversations over the years to get there. You should have a conversation with your girlfriend about the cat and about your different approaches to money in general and see how she responds. Sounds to me like she has already asked you indirectly through the hints. She seems to think you "have the money", but that is because she doesn't understand the difference between capital and income yet. She won't change her mindset overnight - think Wheaton ERE scale levels - but it's possible to learn new money mantras and reject the ones that you've grown up with once you see the negative consequences.

BTW, our dog is still alive but being looked after by someone else now due to our housing and work situation. However, we're still responsible for the medical bills. These are totally unpredictable (especially since I cancelled the pet insurance) but we're now wealthy enough to cover them.

Hope this helps.

UWK

PS - if your girlfriend is open to new perspectives there is always this MMM classic article on the subject: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/09/ ... -optional/

Jason
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Re: Lending a girlfriend money

Post by Jason » Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:29 am

Posting a link to an MMM blog post on this site, on this thread is like going to see "The Rolling Stones" and during their performance of "Sympathy For The Devil" having the guy standing next to you tell you how you need to listen to "Octopus's Garden."

UK-with-kids
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Re: Lending a girlfriend money

Post by UK-with-kids » Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:07 am

Jason wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:29 am
Posting a link to an MMM blog post on this site, on this thread is like going to see "The Rolling Stones" and during their performance of "Sympathy For The Devil" having the guy standing next to you tell you how you need to listen to "Octopus's Garden."
I'm probably missing something with your analogy, but for me MMM articles work on several levels and they are much more accessible to someone living in the "normal" world who thinks it's a good idea to buy a cat when they can't even afford to pay their rent. So I meant it might help the OP bridge the gap with his girlfriend, as it's been useful to me in my own similar circumstances. That's why I mentioned the ERE Wheaton scale - it's hard to make the leap straight from consumer sucker to living ERE without a stepping stone like MMM.

Your post offering £1,000 to kill the cat did make me laugh out loud, but isn't of much practical help to this guy, whereas the MMM blog post about owning pets might be useful.

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