Hristo's FI Journal

[zbigi]

We're just not as dependent on one another as we perhaps used to be back when we were in our ghetto-ized "tribes" when Putnam wrote his book. I mean, I suspect that the "bowling leagues" Putnam was talking about were happening, for example, in a Polish neighborhood in Cleveland filled with Polish people who all worked for 2 or 3 employers, who all attended the same church, and whose kids all went to the same school. That's a community that served a purpose. I don't know what purpose these metro-area HCOL meritocratic corporate wage slave-type "communities" serve. I think community might be more like: I've got eggs, you've got milk, let's trade. I need to head out of town for a wedding; can you feed my livestock while I'm away--I'll of course return the favor. I mean, my neighbor doesn't even ask me to check in on her house when she's away cuz she's got ring cameras everywhere. She doesn't ask me to feed her cat cuz she pays a service to do it.

I think that's exactly it. Nowadays people don't depend on their neighbors, but instead on people across entire country and globe who provide the them with goods and services they need or want. I've heard stories of how Polish villages changed around 1970s when TV got massively adopted there. Before that time, people depended on each other for human contact and entertainment (in the form of gossip or drunken fights if nothing else). After TVs became ubiquitous, everyone could get the same need served without leaving their house and without needing to actively participate in any way (the TV can just talk at you 24/7), so they mostly chose that instead of the neighbors.

[mountainFrugal]

"Hey, coach Hristo: do you mind working with Johnny on his layups; I think he's really showing some progress and he's just missing that component." My response should be: "Listen asshole, I'm a volunteer; I'm already doing more than I should by sitting my own son for more than anyone else lest I have to hear you talk about favoritism. I'm not a personal coach that you're paying along with Johnny's math tutor and violin instructor and therapist and whatever to make sure that Johnny has the best chance as possible at getting in to the dumbass college and getting the dumbass job with the dumbass Fortune 100 company that is literally doing everything it can to make sure that Johnny's kids end up with their heads uploaded to the Machine."

LOL. This is perfect! This is VERY similar to when I volunteered to coach little league. I would add "If you ever allowed little Johnny to make any of his own decisions he might actually like practicing what he is into at the local park for hours on end"

[theanimal]

I'm reminded of something that Jacob wrote once- Working classes trade services/favors without expectation of reward, middle class will trade services or favors but remunerate with a non monetary reward and wealthy/upper class just pays someone else to do it. The wealthy class view is the norm in urban centers but I don't think it's as common in rural areas. Or maybe I'm just biased by my experience. I try to strive towards building a community that operates more along the lines of the working class style setup. Still more often than not it ends up being middle class style transactions for things like dog sittings. I give my friends salmon or meat as way of saying thanks. I have watched/ taken care of multiple friends'/neighbors' houses and animals in the past month and they have reciprocated more or less in the same manner. I've found this transactional approach is more the case with regards to taking care of things, rather than borrowing some tool or equipment. Even this way though I find preferable to the wealthy class version that is disconnected from everything.

ETA: I just saw your further addition to your previous post. Like you said earlier, it's just as important finding out what good is and what it is not. So far it sounds like you have definitely found out where it is not present haha. I grew up in the type of "community" that you are describing and witnessed the complete absence of any real semblance of it. Perhaps you can start with seeing if others are willing to do things that mean community for you? Invite them over to a bonfire, see if they're willing to help plant some fruit trees, help them do some work in their fields/structures etc. Good community is still out there. DF and I were made aware of that recently when we had covid and unprompted had one set of friends get water for us (we live off grid in a dry cabin) and another set come by with some food. That felt special.

[jacob]

Even this way though I find preferable to the wealthy class version that is disconnected from everything.

I'm not convinced that the wealthy class is disconnected from everything. Rather, this class trades in information or connections. Who do you know? What do you know about someone? As observed in how going to the right universities in the US results in an alumni network that gets you preferred attention. Not like #fancycompany shows up at #communitycollege recruitment. There are systems working the systems all the way through.

[Hristo Botev]

LOL. This is perfect! This is VERY similar to when I volunteered to coach little league. I would add "If you ever allowed little Johnny to make any of his own decisions he might actually like practicing what he is into at the local park for hours on end"

One level deeper: kids' organized sports are mostly dumb. I love sport; but it's recreation that we somehow equate with work or with cognitive and social development. Or its war training to develop skills that have long since been rendered obsolete. I mean, to that end video games are more worthwhile than playing football or lacrosse.

It's just a distraction. I'll come into the office on a Monday with a sunburned neck and forearms; exhausted from the weekend. Why? Cuz I was working on DIY projects around the house or being productive in the yard? NO, cuz I drove 2 hours for a 3-game soccer tournament out in the boonies and sat in a lawn chair for 8 hours to live vicariously through DD.

How is this progress? Would our time not have been better spent growing food or tending livestock or building and creating something, anything?

[theanimal]

@Jacob-Perhaps. But at least anecdotally, some people I know well that are very wealthy (multi-million income/year) use their wealth as a means to insulate themselves from others and have almost no real community or friends to speak of. First class travel, everything delivered, vacations to gated communities, paying people to fold their laundry etc. Alumni networks aren't as important when you can pay for a large portion of a new dorm on campus, thus allowing all your grandchildren to attend the school, even though they don't come near to the academic standards required of everyone else. It may not be intentional, but the end result isn't pretty from my vantage point.

[white belt]

@Jacob-Perhaps. But at least anecdotally, some people I know well that are very wealthy (multi-million income/year) use their wealth as a means to insulate themselves from others and have almost no real community or friends to speak of. First class travel, everything delivered, vacations to gated communities, paying people to fold their laundry etc. It may not be intentional, but the end result isn't pretty from my vantage point.

https://web.archive.org/web/20151006183 ... n-the-u-s/

Are we conflating social class and economic class? One can be very wealthy and of almost any social class. A simple example would be the blue collar millionaire next door type that has his own concrete business vs the old money investment banker. Both likely have similar wealth, but how they interact with the world will be quite different.

[Hristo Botev]

I'm not convinced that the wealthy class is disconnected from everything. Rather, this class trades in information or connections. Who do you know? What do you know about someone? As observed in how going to the right universities in the US results in an alumni network that gets you preferred attention. Not like #fancycompany shows up at #communitycollege recruitment. There are systems working the systems all the way through.

I think it's all transactional. E.g., ICW our move back home, literally EVERYTHING we are doing is relying upon connections, friends, etc. DW's job? Referred via friends in her prof'l network. Our realtor? A high school friend. The architect/builder we are relying upon to help us with our rural land search, who will eventually draw up plans for us and help us with the construction? Another high school friend. The school administrators and teachers we've reached out to as we're trying to figure out how to most seamlessly manage the transition for our kids? All high school friends. My law practice will inevitably take a more localized turn; you can guess who the in-town attorneys are I've reached out to get a lay of the land and as potential referral sources; all high school friends.

Ultimately, DW and I have probably just realized that there's not really any "get" in our current community any more; it's all "give" at this point. And that would be fine if we didn't see just how illusory this "community" actually is. It's not wedded to a place; that's the missing piece. That's the problem (a problem) with the transient corporate job existence and the cities that support those jobs; Jack leaves home for college and meets Dianne, who left a different home for college; Jack and Dianne then decide that their collective best chance at getting "good" jobs within their preferred career fields is in Gotham; they find a "community" of similar uprooted transients and, guess what, as soon as the going gets tough the uprooted transients do what transients do, they walk. It's an illusory community.

We're walking; trying to distance ourselves from the meritocracy. I need a good ole boys network. I need some barriers to entry. I need some folks that will stare your ass down and drive you off the road if they don't recognize you.

I need a place where folks choose the job based on the location, not the location based on the job.

[theanimal]

Thanks for the clarification. Yes, I'm talking about the national elite. I may be conflating personal networks versus professional networks. The latter has to be strong to exist at those levels, but the former does not need to be.

[Hristo Botev]

Brooks: "The Nuclear Family was a Mistake"

Good call on this one @theanimal. I'd forgotten about that one. It's helpful for me to look back on this forum and see that some of the same things were driving me nuts 1 year ago, or 2, or 5; and to see that I've made moves in the right direction to minimize those things that drive me nuts and maximize those things that I view as Good.

But, man, this from me 2 years ago pretty sums up much of what we've been talking about here today (worth mentioning perhaps that I don't really think too much of Brooks; but, that article was thought provoking):

Great topic; though Part I of the Brooks' article was absolutely soul-crushing for me, and Part II didn't do much to make me feel better. There's so much here to process, but as someone who is currently right in the thick of trying to figure this stuff out, with two young kids who DW and I are trying to steer in the right direction--and as someone who is pretty pissed off that we live in this absurd constant society re-invention cycle such that I don't even know what that "right" direction is, with weakened institutions less and less able to able to help lead us to virtue--here's what stuck out to me the most from the article:

"A code of family self-sufficiency prevails: Mom, Dad, and the kids are on their own, with a barrier around their island home." And "There’s a reason for that divide: Affluent people have the resources to effectively buy extended family, in order to shore themselves up."

I feel this each and every day; and I feel it even more at the end of the month when I look at our expenses and wonder WHY THE HELL ARE KIDS SO DAMN EXPENSIVE! The system is just broken, and the fix is not (and cannot be): "have fewer kids" or "don't have kids at all."

"In short, the period from 1950 to 1965 demonstrated that a stable society can be built around nuclear families—so long as women are relegated to the household, nuclear families are so intertwined that they are basically extended families by another name, and every economic and sociological condition in society is working together to support the institution." And "For women, the nuclear-family structure imposes different pressures. Though women have benefited greatly from the loosening of traditional family structures—they have more freedom to choose the lives they want—many mothers who decide to raise their young children without extended family nearby find that they have chosen a lifestyle that is brutally hard and isolating."

Yep, this is Elizabeth Warren's Two-Income Trap revelation again. The answer isn't: "well, just have women leave the workplace and go back to the home." But the nuclear family on an island with two parents working full time ONLY works for high earners, and not very well, and only in the short term, because that kind of child-rearing (call it helicopter parenting, or bulldozer/lawnmower parenting, or whatever) is creating MASSIVE fissures in society, with the meritocracy replacing the aristocracy of generations ago, except that unlike generations ago, the "under" class (i.e., those who fail at the meritocracy game) doesn't have anything to do with their time, thanks to automation or whatever else, except to harbor resentments about a society that just doesn't seem to value them anymore.

[zbigi]

And that would be fine if we didn't see just how illusory this "community" actually is. It's not wedded to a place; that's the missing piece.

Isn't it just the consequence of overall changes in economy? In the past, plenty of people were tied to a place because they either owned a land they were farming, or owned a small business that had a loyal local customer base. Now both of these cases are increasingly more rare (farmers are a minority even in rural communities, and small businesses are slow in decline due to expansion of large chains), so the world is just much more transient.
There are perhaps still places frozen in time where it largely didn't happen yet, but they might be hard to find. One such place was shown in the documentary "The Truffle Hunters" (which is a great ERE movie BTW), but even there the community members admit that the young population is absolutely not interested in continuing this lifestyle and is drawn to cities instead - so that place will probably look very different in the next 20-30 years.

[Hristo Botev]

Update on my family's ongoing transition:

We spent the long weekend back home looking at homes, touring schools, visiting with my dad, seeing friends, and generally getting the kids excited about the move (not terribly hard to do, given the location). It was really good to get back; very, very different environment than where we've spent the last 10+ years.

Things are falling into place. We are under contract in a home in my old neighborhood, which we'll pay cash for. We purposely looked for neighborhoods with no HOA and with plenty of folks with campers/rvs and boats parked in their yards, as we'll be doing the same.

Once we sell our house here and close on the new house we'll be well under the theoretical "crossover point" under the 4% rule, if you consider total net worth. That's of course total fantasy as most of our net worth will be in age-restricted retirement accounts and in the new home; but, it'll be a good feeling nonetheless. A big reason for reaching this crossover point will be that our spending per person will be well under JAFI, I think? (not sure how you calculate that for a family of 4; we'll be at less than $30K/year for the household). Property taxes alone will be more than $6K/year cheaper for a comparably priced home. Insurance will be higher, though; as will Internet as well, though my firm will probably end up paying that.

Speaking of which, I had the talk with my law partners and they're on board with me continuing on in my current role remotely; so, looks like I'll be opening up my firm's "second office" location, of a sort--so we're now a bigtime multi-state law firm, I guess. That second office, however, will likely be in the Airstream trailer parked in the backyard of my new home.

The news about being able to continue on in my current role was kind of unexpected; I'd anticipated that we'd need to figure out some sort of other arrangement; like perhaps I open up my own solo practice and do work for my current firm on a contract basis; or some sort of significant reduction to my salary. But, alas, my partners have no problem with me just doing what I'm doing now remotely. That'll be a bit of a windfall for me as the COL back home is SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than it is here. So, we'll need to be diligent about avoiding lifestyle inflation. But I don't think that will be too much of a problem, as we've got some fairly concrete financial/life goals to work towards--primarily centered on acquiring land in the north part of the county and working towards building that into a homestead where DW and I can move permanently around the time are youngest is finishing up high school. That said, there's definitely a boat (or two) in my family's future.

We toured the Catholic school there, which was great. But, DD has made it clear that she wants to go to the public middle school that DW and I went to, in part b/c she knows that will make the transition to high school easier; but also b/c she is starting to feel a bit suffocated by the small Catholic school environment--and the new Catholic school would be no different. DS seemed more excited about the Catholic School (their athletic facilities are way nicer than his current school, which is all he really cares about). He might not get in, however, as that class is full. BUT, regarding the discussion up thread about transactional relationships: our friends are big donors to the school and sit on some board or another, so if there's a space to be found, it'll be found. Same for one of the public charter schools there that is all the rage now: another friend is heavily involved with that school and friends with the decisionmaker, so if there's a way to "win" the "lottery," they'll find it. Yet one more thing back home that hasn't changed.

All else fails, DS would be more than happy to go to the neighborhood public school; it's the same one my sister went to and of course we know several of the teachers.

It's good to be going home.

ETA: Leverage has been all important in all of these various discussions/decisions.

Regarding my work: I went into the discussion with my partners knowing I didn't need the job, as DW already had secured something and has no intention of really ever not working in a hospital. Also, I've already received offers from friends back home who are lawyers, wanting to know if I'm interested in partnering up. I may do something like that, at some point, but for the time being I probably can't make any more money down there that I can with my current gig, at least not without having to hustle A LOT--and, frankly, I'd rather focus on raising chickens and growing vegetables than pounding the pavement.

Regarding the home we are under contract with: the seller screwed around a bit (and still might more), but we are in a take-it-or-leave-it mindset with money to put down a cash offer. Makes a difference.

Regarding the kids schools: when you think that the meritocracy scene is all bullshit anyway (as we do), means you're not desperate to get your kid into this school vs. that school. "Thy will be done" as my people say.

ETAx2: One of my favorite things about this new house is that it does NOT currently have a washer or a dryer. I've been wanting to get a Speed Queen washer for a long time; but our current centrifuge type non aggregator washer works fine (well, it works fine for what passes for "clean" clothes these days); and I'm not one to like the hassle of listing a washing machine on Facebook or craigslist or whatever. But, at the new house, I'm getting myself a brand spanking new Speed Queen aggregator washer and sticking it in the garage; and I'm going to have clothes that are ACTUALLY CLEAN! (also, no dryer; who needs one anyway?)

[mountainFrugal]

Speaking of which, I had the talk with my law partners and they're on board with me continuing on in my current role remotely; so, looks like I'll be opening up my firm's "second office" location...
The news about being able to continue on in my current role was kind of unexpected; I'd anticipated that we'd need to figure out some sort of other arrangement;

Sounds like great news all around. What if you were spending another year or two stressing over this decision... only to come to the same outcome?

[take2]

From this:

July 2018 expenses

mortgage, insurance, property taxes: $1,925.30
less mortgage principle: ($330.44)
health/dental/vision insurance (and wife's workplace gym membership): 431.18
HOA (water, trash, landscape, insurance, etc.) (includes an extra payment; normally $200): $400
electric: $99
gas: $37.67
my cell: $73.41 (need to get on family plan with wife; my former employer paid my cell bill but I lost that with the job change)
wife cell: $51.23
kids' tuition: $1,517.60
dog: $444.98 (boarding for a week while at the beach; need to figure out a smarter way to do vacation)
grocery/home: $1,572.66 (wtf)
restaurant: $1,106.14 (wtf)
car: $202.62
clothing: $935.85 (includes kids' uniforms for the year, but nevertheless, wtf)
entertainment: $697.05 (wtf)
gifts: $286.84
cleaning lady: $130.00 (have switched from 2x mo. to just 1x mo, and we are working on phasing this out completely)
internet: $19.99
term life insurance premium: $59.15
ATM: $165.25 (probably mostly babysitters)
Playstation Vue: $44.99 (got it for the World Cup; have already cancelled it)
wife gym: $109
me gym: $29.99 (working on cancelling it)
Spotify: $9.99 (already cancelled it)
Total: $10.019.45

To this:

A big reason for reaching this crossover point will be that our spending per person will be well under JAFI, I think? (not sure how you calculate that for a family of 4; we'll be at less than $30K/year for the household)

In less than 4 years. Not even mentioning the more impressive shift on all the non-financial aspects of your life. Well done.

[Hristo Botev]

In less than 4 years. Not even mentioning the more impressive shift on all the non-financial aspects of your life. Well done.

Ha! Thanks for posting that. As I recall I got (justifiably) ridiculed pretty hard upon posting those July 2018 expenses! You should have seen what those monthly expenses looked like BEFORE 2018, when we were living in a 3K sq. ft. ranch home with a first and second mortgage, as well as a family loan. We averaged more than $15K/mo. in spending in both 2016 and 2017.

The devil will be in the details, of course. But, because I'm too excited to do any more work today, here's what the budget will likely be on average once the move is complete (I hadn't factored in health care costs in the less than $30k/yr number above):




*project no. 1 will be getting replacement windows and reinforcing insulation

** side effect of the weight training has been that my carefully curated wardrobe no longer fits, after almost a decade of wear. I replaced that entire wardrobe with: (1) one pair of charcoal grey "athletic fit" (ha!) dress slacks from Brooks Brothers; (2) 3 Brooks Brothers dress shirts; (3) a charcoal grey crew neck sweater; (3) one pair of Carhartt work pants; and (4) one pair of "athletic fit" (ha!) Levi's jeans with the elastic nonsense in it. My shorts, t-shirts, and grey sweatshirt still fit. That's it. I'm not as fashionable as I once was; but I also don't give a flying flip anymore; I'd rather focus on figuring out how to get stronger so I will be able to get myself on and off the toilet without assistance for as long as possible. The kids will no longer have a uniform for school, most likely. I'd thought the school uniform thing would be a cost savings; but it wasn't, really. Only 2 vendors means clothes cost more than they should. And used clothing was difficult for my daughter because she'll grow an inch in a night, it seems (she regularly got written up for skirts being too short--to which I typically responded with a diatribe about how their chosen vendors simply didn't sell skirts for tall, thin girls). And for my son, the boys are notorious about putting holes in the knees so that a pair of pants never get handed down. So I suspect the clothing for the kids will end up being a wash.

[white belt]

Great news! That really sounds like everything worked out even better than expected, particularly with the work arrangement.

Has your family done any kayaking? That can be a great lake activity that is less hassle than dealing with a larger motorized boat. In my experience, boat owners spend 90% of their boat time dealing with maintenance issues and maybe 10% of their time actually on the water. I also wouldn't expect gas to get any cheaper for boats or cars in the future.

[Hristo Botev]

Has your family done any kayaking? That can be a great lake activity that is less hassle than dealing with a larger motorized boat. In my experience, boat owners spend 90% of their boat time dealing with maintenance issues and maybe 10% of their time actually on the water. I also don't expect gas to get any cheaper for boats or cars.

Thanks.

DW and I both grew up with/on boats (and jet skis). We spent our entire summers in middle school and high school on the water; my buddies and I used to get to summer 2-a-day football practices on a jon boat, cuz the middle school is on the water. That is not a purchase/expense I have any heartburn about. It's a big reason we are moving back; we want our kids to have the boating experience we had growing up.

My buddy's parents had a sign on their wall growing up that said "A boat is a hole in the water where money is thrown," or something like that. It's expensive; I know--don't care. We've got several friends that already have center console fishing boats that we can take out for bottom fishing and the like (everyone chips in for gas). So, I suspect we'll end up getting a lounge-type boat that the kids can ski behind; and we'll either dock it at my friend's dad's house (it's a half mile walk); or else park it in our front yard, redneck style. A sailboat may also be in my future. I also could see us getting a cheap jon boat with a small engine that the kids could take out themselves. It would be light enough that they could drag it down to the boat ramp using bikes or a riding lawnmower.

[Hristo Botev]

A thing I learned today. Termites are more of a problem now where I am moving back to than they were when I was growing up there; attributed to rising temperatures.

[Lemur]

A 73.41% decrease in expenses from July 2018 to post on Feb 2022. That is awesome!

[Hristo Botev]

A 73.41% decrease in expenses from July 2018 to post on Feb 2022. That is awesome!

Admittedly, those aren't Feb 2022 expenses; they are anticipated expenses once we make the move.

That said, my actual pre-move Feb. 2022 expenses aren't too far removed from those anticipated expenses. But there are some budget line items that will be zeroed out entirely thanks to the move.