Hristo's FI Journal

Where are you and where are you going?
Hristo Botev
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Hristo Botev »

macg wrote:
Sun Mar 13, 2022 2:07 am
I am going to bow out of this discussion, because I didn't want this to become a big religious discussion.
What happened to the rest of this response, where you (a) responded to my question about what equality amongst the sexes look like by referring me to your previous posts, and (b) responded to my question about why you went to a Jesuit college and studied theology even though you are not religious? Did you delete it, or am I just imagining that when I checked in on this forum about an hour ago there were like two paragraphs of explanation/parting words before you said you were bowing out of this discussion?

Given your bow out, was all of this just you trolling my journal? You made some pretty incendiary (or at least provocative) statements on my journal, assuming you have at least some some sort of familiarity with my journal (this journal is, in fact, already one "big religious discussion"). Those statements are, inter alia:

1. Catholicism shouldn't/can't be taken seriously (by which I do not mean simply academically/historically)--or at least it doesn't have a platform by which to "preach morality"--until it changes, evolves, and/or progresses (a dirty word on this journal);

2. Catholicism's fundamental beliefs are immoral;

3. Catholicism views women as less than/inferior/not equal to men;

4. One example of Catholicism viewing women as inferior/unequal/less than is that only men can serve as priests;

5. This belief, that only men can serve as priests, is one of Catholicism's immoral fundamental beliefs, but there are many more ("Too much to describe").

I'm asking you to elaborate on those statements; to support them. You've responded by (a) walking back your initial claim that your views on Catholicism are not mere "random statements" because you studied theology and history at a Jesuit university, and (b) by "bowing out." I would not ask you to elaborate upon/support those statements if you'd made them on your journal, or even on some other thread; I'm asking because you made them on my journal. I was not educated by Jesuits, and so perhaps as a result I'm more than happy to engage in some Catholic apologetics; to defend my faith against surface-level and baseless attacks. I think both of us ultimately would be the better for having engaged in that exercise of good faith apologetics, even if at the end neither one of us ultimately convinces the other of our principle position: that Catholicism is the one true faith vs. Catholicism is a tool with immoral beliefs used to control people that is interesting to study from a historical/academic context.

If you're not willing to engage in that discussion, I ask that you take your bomb throwing elsewhere in the future. My journal is not Twitter.

Perhaps to bring this full circle: felt banner-y Catholicism = the CINO Jesuit training/education @macg received at his Jesuit university. Sounds like it is the same felt banner-y Catholic education my kids are getting at their current Jesuit primary school. Unfortunately it took us 5 years to realize that not only is that education a massive waste of money, it is in fact a dereliction of our duties (as parents) to be our kids' first and most important catechists. Hopefully we've realized our mistake soon enough that the heretical and sinful rot of that education will have not set in far enough that our children grow up to be "men without chests."

7Wannabe5
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I was cultural Catholic, so I know exactly what you mean by "felt banners." -lol. Both of my parents attended Catholic schools and the same Jesuit university. My mother read a lot of Hans Kung and probably contributed to the "felt banner" movement before she converted to the Episcopal church when I was around 12. She felt that the Catholic Church was becoming too charismatic, because there were people "talking in tongues" in our parish.

I think that the "felt banner" movement was more post-modern (meant to appeal to the swarms of boomer hippy teenagers) than modern. The problems that modernity posed for the Catholic Church, or the older Catholic women I knew, might be better epitomized by Jackie O. Even in the 1960s, it was considered regressive that my aunt, who was a college educated, upper middle class city girl, had 8 children in 11 years. How on earth did she manage to do that and still look quite presentable in a sheath dress while sipping on a Tom Collins? Quite a bit of money and lots of help. Was this lifestyle replicable or sustainable on to the next generation? For the most part, no.

Another thought I had was that maybe what I believe you are promoting would have worked for an INFP like my sister who was passionately religious in very early adolescence before she became equally passionately atheistic. For an easy-going rational like me, the felt banners served to almost make the experience more palatable, yet admittably also somewhat more bland and boring. IOW, I believe that I would have left the church in either case, because I simply don't believe, and it has never been an arena which evokes much emotional response from me beyond a bit of positive sentimentality when the children's choir performs or a bit of negative repulsion against gothic icons. Of course, my negative response to icons might be due in part to being subtly informed in early childhood that we were not the sort of Catholics who display plastic Madonnas in grottos in their suburban yards.

macg
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by macg »

I was not trolling. This is why in my very first sentence of my first response I said `I don't mean to be offensive to anyone, so if this comes across as that or skirts the edge, please let me know and I will delete and learn for next time.`

My only intention was to expand upon some points that Jacob made about banners. I tried to explain in my first response that I was talking about all large groups, using religions as one example of groups, and using catholicism as an example of one such religion. Thus I was attempting to show (and obviously failing) some common issues with all large groups, not specifically calling out one religion.

Thanks for making it clear that I was coming across as offensive. That was not my intent and I truly apologize. As stated in my first post, I have now redacted my comments and have learned for the future. I am not sure if there's a better way to actually delete my comments, perhaps Jacob can do that to make it cleaner. If that happens,this comment could be deleted as well if you wanted it pristine.

Again, my apologies and have a wonderful day.

Hristo Botev
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Hristo Botev »

macg wrote:
Sun Mar 13, 2022 11:28 am
I can assure you I am not/was not offended by anything you posted. I remain open to having a discussion with you where we both are expected to actually support the blanket statements we make; and to have the humility to not make blanket statements that we cannot support. This is how we “learn” and “evolve,” individually. For starters we assume that the millennia of people that came before us perhaps figured a thing or two out before our parents stuck two together, and we should strive to understand the what and why and how of that before we call for “change” for change’s sake.

Hristo Botev
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Hristo Botev »

I'm behind on my Kingsnorth; but, damn, this guy is SO GOOD:
In the modern age, the most common form this simulacra of religion takes is ideology. Liberalism, socialism, communism, fascism, nationalism: all of these post-Enlightenment forms could be said to be the result of the migration of the holy from its proper place to the purely human realm. All strip away the transcendant Other and replace it with purely human perspective. Ideology promises us a material world remade for the better, but ends up drowning it in tyranny. The Machine is its handmaiden, and Total Control is its endgame, always. Without Total Control, how can the world be perfected?

It is worth noting, of course, that religion can become a totalising and tyrannical system too; indeed, this is where this whole story started. But I think we would do well to understand that, regardless of the pros and cons of churches, faiths or human authorities, our need for transcendant stories never went away, and never will. We are storytelling creatures; we are religious animals. We are heading now,ever faster, away from the end of a brief age in which we had the luxury of pretending that none of this was true.
https://paulkingsnorth.substack.com/p/t ... e-holy?s=r

He draws a direct line from Luther and the Reformers to tyranny of The Machine that we are all now (or will soon be) living under.

chenda
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by chenda »

@hristo He probably mentions this behind the paywall article but it seems Kingsworth suddenly became an orthodox Christian during lockdown, where he apparently had some kind of spiritual experience leading him to abandoning his eco-paganism (his words) He dabbled in Buddhism, wicca, and new agey stuff all before joining the Romanian Orthodox Church last year and getting baptised in the River Shannon of all places. He writes about all this in this rather rambling article.

https://www.paulkingsnorth.net/cross

I don't know what to make of him to be honest, although I can say his description of 1980s church of england is very accurate.

Hristo Botev
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Hristo Botev »

chenda wrote:
Mon Mar 14, 2022 1:49 pm
Yep; as I said a year ago: "all my worlds collide": viewtopic.php?p=243305#p243305. I loved that article so much I gave a presentation on it at a meeting of my local Knights of Columbus council, of all places. I finished reading his Buckmaster trilogy while on retreat at a Jesuit silent retreat place and I remember thinking, at the time, "Alexandria is OBVIOUSLY a Christian book." That was in January 2021; turns out he was baptized Orthodox around the same time, not long after having completed the last book in the trilogy.

chenda
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by chenda »

Hristo Botev wrote:
Mon Mar 14, 2022 2:00 pm
Yep; as I said a year ago: "all my worlds collide":
Ah so you did, I did search 'orthodox' on your journal but it didn't come up.
Last edited by chenda on Mon Apr 04, 2022 3:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

ThriftyRob
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by ThriftyRob »

@Hristo, I have been enjoying the to and fro of debate on your journal. I share many values with you, and respect your commitment to your faith. I am a lapsed member of the Church of England but a staunch believer. In searching for a new home, I looked at buddhism, quakerism, catholicism (I was impressed by the rule of Benedict but repelled by the church's handling of the sexual abuse scandal) and I explored ancient Christianity in the UK (the celtic church), which is rooted in pre-schism, pre-Norman invasion orthodoxy. I came to the conclusion that the Eastern Orthodox church has the most integrity, as in being virtually unchanged from the worship followed by the disciples and it appears that the Russian branch is the purest and least compromised. I hesitated to engage with Russian orthodoxy because there's a strong nationalistic theme within it that I anticipated could present political challenges (the Ukraine tension has been a long time coming, if you follow orthodox blogs). I'm not surprised that Kingsnorth has converted to orthodoxy because, for a Christian, the faith has a lot of appeal.

Edited to correct typo in 'Kingsnorth'.
Last edited by ThriftyRob on Tue Mar 15, 2022 5:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

Hristo Botev
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Hristo Botev »

ThriftyRob wrote:
Mon Mar 14, 2022 6:10 pm
Was going to say that Kingsnorth would appear to agree with you on the Eastern Orthodox; then I read to the bottom.

Just know that whatever institution you end up deciding upon, it will betray you; probably already has. It’s inevitable. That’s not the point.

take2
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by take2 »

I’m curious as to how you distinguish between Catholicism and Christianity? In your short discourse with macg you alluded to your belief that Catholicism is “the one true faith”. However your enthusiasm for Kingsnorth (and Alexandria in particular as a “Christian” book) gives the impression that his propensity towards Russian Orthodox is more of a difference in degree than in kind?

Hristo Botev
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Hristo Botev »

take2 wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 4:23 am
Well, this should get interesting.

First, I believe Kingsnorth is Romanian Orthodox, not Russian. And he doesn’t have a “propensity” towards it, he’s a baptized and confirmed member of it.

As for how I distinguish between Catholics and Orthodox, I think Orthodox and Catholics have not insignificant theological disagreements that can ultimately be resolved, God willing.

I think that any sort of Christianity that has been directly poisoned by Luther and the other “reformers” (which does not include Orthodoxy) is on the level of a different “faith” altogether. History calls them “reformers,” they didn’t reform anything; they planted the seeds of destruction that would/will bring about not only the end of Christendom but of all humanity. I’ve believed this for some time, Kingsnorth says it better in his Abbey of Misrule essays.

To that end, the institution of the Catholic Church is not itself free of the poison of Luther et al. Quite the contrary, the Church exists in the world, and the world the Church exists in is Luther’s and as a result, the institution of the Church already has and will continue to betray its followers in various ways. The institutional Church would/did betray its followers without /before Luther et al. That is absolutely no excuse to abandon it; and it takes some really screwed up and consumerism/cafeteria style pseudo theology to justify abandoning the Church for the various failings of the institution given that we know we live in a fallen world.

Everyone who is not Catholic (or worse, “lapsed Catholic”) LOVES to talk about the many sex abuse scandals involving the institutional Church (schadenfreude), but there are other institutional betrayals that are even worse. So, what do? Lower the bar? Get rid of the bar? Abandon the institution that provides the bar in the first place?

Thy will be done.

Re Orthodoxy, I know very little about it apart from some of what my own Church tells me. I suspect, however, that that Church (those Churches?) have some betrayals coming their way as well. I pray that is not the case. But as I understand it there has been some negative reactions from “cradle” or “cultural” members of the Orthodox Church to the likes of Kingsnorth and various other “Ortho-bro” types who have recently joined the Orthodox Church (esp in the US, and esp in the southern US; eg, Rod Dreher) with the belief that it represents some sort of institutional bulwark standing athwart modernity and the inevitable failings and shortcomings of the mainline Protestant churches and even the Catholic Church.

But, I rejoice in Kingsnorth’s conversion in part bc I believe small “o” orthodox Christians need as many of his caliber of voices as we can get. He is doing the Lord’s work.

Caveat: Unlike @macg I was not educated by Jesuits, so the foregoing are, in fact, “random statements.” But I stand ready to support/defend/correct them, and/or concede where they are errant; and I'm not particularly concerned about giving offense, and I certainly do not believe anyone on this forum could say anything on this journal from which I would take offense.

chenda
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by chenda »

Hristo Botev wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 5:32 am
History calls them “reformers,” they didn’t reform anything; they planted the seeds of destruction that would/will bring about not only the end of Christendom but of all humanity.
That's quite a claim you are making there. Perhaps you could elaborate if you have not done so upthread?

Hristo Botev
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Hristo Botev »

chenda wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 10:07 am
That's quite a claim you are making there. Perhaps you could elaborate if you have not done so upthread?
Kingsnorth and those he cites say it better than I could ever hope to in the linked essay. Thumbnail: In insisting upon sola scriptura, the reformers "unleashed the radical individualism on which the modern world would be built. With tradition and authority demolished, reason would become the only 'basis for argument about God, creation and morality.' It was but a short leap from that to the age of Science and Enlightenment, in which a trap was spring on the theologians who had accidentally set it."

They also, in the process, abolished God and invented the concept of "religion" and its necessary counterpart, "secularism."

It's not all Luther's fault; he's just the devil's plaything, after all. It's the Tower of Babel; it's the Forbidden Fruit; it's Prometheus and his fire. It all leads necessarily and ultimately to transhumanism and disembodiment.

chenda
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by chenda »

Hristo Botev wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 10:43 am
With tradition and authority demolished, reason would become the only 'basis for argument about God, creation and morality.' It was but a short leap from that to the age of Science and Enlightenment, in which a trap was spring on the theologians who had accidentally set it."
I see. The protestant work ethic and the spirit of capitalism perhaps? I'm really not sure this stands up to historical scrutiny at all.

Hristo Botev
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Hristo Botev »

chenda wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 10:56 am
I see. The protestant work ethic and the spirit of capitalism perhaps? I'm really not sure this stands up to historical scrutiny at all.
No, doesn't really have anything to do with work ethic or capitalism. Has to do with replacing God with reason and self. Myth of Progress. God went from being existence (see Book of Exodus) to existing (and therefore knowable/discoverable), to being reasoned out of existence, replaced by self--theo drama vs. ego drama. Read the essay, but Kingsnorth draws the line from Luther et al. and sola scriptura, et al., to, e.g., Emerson: "No law can be sacred to me but that of my own nature. Good and bad are but names very readily transferrable to that or this: the only right is what is after my constitution, the only wrong what is against it." I.e., the "self" has become sacred in and of itself.

This is the book Kingsnorth is largely drawing upon in this essay: https://www.amazon.com/Unintended-Refor ... 0674088050

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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by jacob »

It was basically the transition from blue to orange for those who speak spiral. Since blue leans collectively and orange leans individually, it also makes sense that this transition was ignited by some iconoclast bypassing the previous "argument", which required "going through a hierarchy" (priests, etc.), and telling people that given personal initiative (the beginning of the meritocracy), they didn't have to conform to the social class they were born into.
Those who don't like the "dynamic hierarchy" currently have the choice between postmodernism (flat hierarchy) and traditionalism (static hierarchy). This is putting it crudely.

Hristo Botev
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Hristo Botev »

jacob wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:25 am
The Church of Richard Dawkins.

take2
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by take2 »

Hristo Botev wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 5:32 am
Well, this should get interesting.
Indeed. I would love to grab a beer (or three) with you and explore this in rich detail.

A few years ago I became aware of the various ecumenical councils (of which I believe Vatican II was the last for the Catholic Church). It’s a fascinating history of how the Catholic Church consolidated its views/teachings over time (albeit time measures over millennia, not years).

I agree with @chenda that it seems a bit of a stretch to lump all that Luther (and subsequent reformists) did as “the devils plaything”. There were serious gripes with the Church at that time, many of them I would argue would be classified as institutional betrayals per your words (indulgences being at the top of my list).

I understand your point re: logic leading to Enlightenment and eventually leading to “God is dead”. But surely you don’t believe that the Church continuing to hold that kind of power over the population to be i) feasible in modern day society; and ii) beneficial for modern day society?

Unless the Church was solely run/administered by benevolent holy men (holy people?) it leads the same way that any powerful institution led by men leads - towards corruption. The failure to address the worst of this (child abuse) is what turns so many off.

How would you like to see the role of the institution and the criteria for those administrating it’s authority?

take2
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by take2 »

Hristo Botev wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:34 am
The Church of Richard Dawkins.
:D

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