Sleeping Problems

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thrifty++
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Re: Sleeping Problems

Post by thrifty++ » Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:18 am

My sleep is back in order.

The last three nights in a row I got tired and fell asleep easy and had uninterrupted sleep.

I have cut the caffeine down to 2 cups in the morning and thats it. And I think my sleep cycle realigned to local conditions. I think the time zone issue was a major contributor. I am essentially now sleeping when I was awake and awake when I was sleeping. Completely opposite time zones. So I think that was a big part of it. I am now adjusted. Also am no longer sick so thats helping too. Funnily enough I think it was also the stress of moving out of my place finishing my job and flying overseas that might have made the sleeps bad too. Even if at times I was not consciously stressed. I am finally feeling relaxed and settled into a place and have no sense of stress. So maybe that is why too.

I never seem to get 8 hour sleeps though. It more 7 to 7.5 hours. Maybe I am a person who is not meant to sleep that much. Or maybe I need to drop to one coffee a day!

Gilberto de Piento
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Re: Sleeping Problems

Post by Gilberto de Piento » Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:18 am

I'm glad your sleep is better.
I never seem to get 8 hour sleeps though. It more 7 to 7.5 hours. Maybe I am a person who is not meant to sleep that much. Or maybe I need to drop to one coffee a day!
Is 7 to 7.5 hours enough sleep? Or are you still tired? As I get older I'm finding I need less and less sleep. Sometimes I am still very tired though so I don't know if I am getting the right amount or not.

prognastat
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Re: Sleeping Problems

Post by prognastat » Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:37 am

thrifty++ wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:18 am
My sleep is back in order.

The last three nights in a row I got tired and fell asleep easy and had uninterrupted sleep.

I have cut the caffeine down to 2 cups in the morning and thats it. And I think my sleep cycle realigned to local conditions. I think the time zone issue was a major contributor. I am essentially now sleeping when I was awake and awake when I was sleeping. Completely opposite time zones. So I think that was a big part of it. I am now adjusted. Also am no longer sick so thats helping too. Funnily enough I think it was also the stress of moving out of my place finishing my job and flying overseas that might have made the sleeps bad too. Even if at times I was not consciously stressed. I am finally feeling relaxed and settled into a place and have no sense of stress. So maybe that is why too.

I never seem to get 8 hour sleeps though. It more 7 to 7.5 hours. Maybe I am a person who is not meant to sleep that much. Or maybe I need to drop to one coffee a day!
Glad to hear you're feeling better and getting you much needed sleep again.

bryan
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Re: Sleeping Problems

Post by bryan » Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:52 pm

Exercise definitely helps with "energy", sleep regulation.

Consider naps? If for jet lag, limit to ~45m.
thrifty++ wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:18 am
I never seem to get 8 hour sleeps though. It more 7 to 7.5 hours. Maybe I am a person who is not meant to sleep that much. Or maybe I need to drop to one coffee a day!
When one sleeps and for how long is an interesting thing, since it seems to vary so much (but also not so much) between people. I can predict within +-15m of when I will wake up naturally the next morning, about 8.5 hours out. In retired life (or any time I didn't need to set an alarm to be somewhere), I usually stay up late: can't recall the the last time I went to sleep before midnight; after 4am was a week ago. Even while not retired I would tend to just shorten my sleeping hours instead of adjusting my bedtime (e.g. 5am every weekday still meant around midnight + a few naps during the week).

theanimal
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Re: Sleeping Problems

Post by theanimal » Thu May 16, 2019 8:24 pm

I've faced the same problems as the OP the last few weeks and can't seem to figure out the problem. I have a fancy fitness tracker which tracks my sleep, including phases, and overall sleep time has been down and my REM sleep has been minimal to near non existent. At first, I thought it was mainly due to their being tons of light up here now and not really getting dark, but I moved my bed and darkened my sleeping area with no improved results.
I go to bed at the same time every night and wake up at the same time every morning.
I don't drink alcohol and rarely consume caffeine.
I don't drink 2 hrs before bed and stop eating 3 hrs before.
I don't look at screens in the last hour, and usually not within the last 2. Starting 2 hrs before all my devices turn on the blue light filter.
I exercise every day and most often earlier in the day.
No changes in diet.

I'm left thinking the only variables are temperature and my mattress. I spent most of the past few years sleeping on a sleeping pad or tatami mat directly on the floor. In March, I got a matress but I think it's too soft as I don't think its been more than a handful of times that I've slept through the night without waking up at least once since getting it. Otherwise im not sure.

And ideas?
Last edited by theanimal on Thu May 16, 2019 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

daylen
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Re: Sleeping Problems

Post by daylen » Thu May 16, 2019 8:32 pm

Anxiety?

theanimal
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Re: Sleeping Problems

Post by theanimal » Thu May 16, 2019 9:17 pm

Negative. Very low stress right now.

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Ego
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Re: Sleeping Problems

Post by Ego » Fri May 17, 2019 12:14 am

The first thing to come to mind is the observer effect.
How new is the sleep tracker? Take it off for a few nights and see how you feel.

Also, I try to move in the opposite direction wrt comfort when experiencing a challenge like this. Rather than removing light, noise or discomfort, I add it. Mrs. Ego loves me for it.

Try your thermarest and sleeping bag on the floor. See what happens.

Back in the day I envied my sf roommates who could sleep anywhere and wake up ready to go. I figured it was a learnable skill. I've been a bit skeptical of the whole sleep measuring phenomenon as it makes people believe they need a pristine environment. But what do I know?

thrifty++
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Re: Sleeping Problems

Post by thrifty++ » Fri May 17, 2019 6:08 am

I have worked out what my problem is.

I have all the best sleep hygiene habits. And this all helps. But I have a physiological problem. I have a nasal obstruction which is far worse when sleeping. So almost the whole night I breathe through my mouth. My mouth and throat gets sore and dry and causes me to wake up then I eventually cant get back to sleep. Also it causes me to snore on rare occasions which also wakes me up too. Also sometimes when I try to breathe through my nose sometimes this will wake me up too. So I am arranging surgery to fix the obstruction. I really cant wait until its done.

I also downloaded an app called snorelab which I can use to track my sleeping and record my sleep time. And listen to myself. God its quite horrendous. There is very little snoring but lots of heavy mouth breathing. Maybe you could download the app and see if that helps. Maybe there is something physical in your case like mine. When you listen to yourself sleeping you can really hear what the problems are.

What is it that you are using that allows you to track your sleep mode? That sounds awesome. I would love to know that level of detail

bigato
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Re: Sleeping Problems

Post by bigato » Fri May 17, 2019 4:20 pm

I followed all the advice out there on this, tested every hypotesis, and a lot of things made same degree of difference, but not enough to get me back to my previous state of sleeping well. And then this year I finally found the two culprits, which may not be your case off course. After I changed those, all those other secondary advice that made a small difference, is irrelevant. I can drink coffe if I want, look at screens late if I want, not do any exercise, etc, and yet I sleep very well now.

The two things that did it for me are probably not even relevant to you, but this pattern of how a lot of stuff may influence it to a secondary degree, but only one or two main reasons are the real root causes, was something that I was not expecting to find. Looking back now, it seems obvious that whenever you face a complex problem that is hard to solve, this pattern is likely to emerge.

theanimal
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Re: Sleeping Problems

Post by theanimal » Wed May 22, 2019 9:29 am

Ego wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 12:14 am
The first thing to come to mind is the observer effect.
How new is the sleep tracker? Take it off for a few nights and see how you feel.

Also, I try to move in the opposite direction wrt comfort when experiencing a challenge like this. Rather than removing light, noise or discomfort, I add it. Mrs. Ego loves me for it.
I've had the sleep tracker since February so I don't think that is the issue. I tried sleeping on the floor again for a few nights. I do sleep longer and wake up less but my muscles seem to recover much less on the floor. I had forgotten this but this was what prompted me to get a mattress after years of floor sleeping. I want to agree with you and generally am in favor of doing away rather than adding but being able to recover from activity overnight is a huge advantage compared to worn out muscles the next day,

I switched back to the mattress and sleep has just barely improved for whatever reason. It's still not ideal but enough that I'm not feeling miserable throughout the day.
thrifty++ wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 6:08 am
What is it that you are using that allows you to track your sleep mode? That sounds awesome. I would love to know that level of detail
Thanks for the app suggestion. Since my problems are more recent, I think it may be another variable rather than physiological. But I have yet to determine what that is. I use an Oura Ring. It's very expensive but the sleep tracking is bar none and health is not something I skimp on. The daytime aspect of the ring is so-so, but the sleep component is outstanding.

theanimal
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Re: Sleeping Problems

Post by theanimal » Sat May 25, 2019 3:41 pm

I'm back to sleeping normally, without any significant changes. One thing I did notice is during that period of poor sleep I rarely read before bed (something I normally do). I started that back up again and have been sleeping great. Hardly waking during the night and practically falling asleep after I put the book down. I'm not sure if this is just a coincidence. However, I have read before bed for the vast majority of nights in my life. Maybe it's an ingrained routine. Either way I'm not going to change anything.

mustafayacoob
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Re: Sleeping Problems

Post by mustafayacoob » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:05 am

Some useful things are to make sure you:
#1 Avoid Caffeine, Alcohol, Nicotine, and Other Chemicals that Interfere with Sleep
#2 Turn Your Bedroom into a Sleep-Inducing Environment
#3 Establish a Soothing Pre-Sleep Routine
#4 Go to Sleep When You’re Truly Tired
#5 Don’t Be a Nighttime Clock-Watcher
#6 Use Light to Your Advantage
#7 Keep Your Internal Clock Set with a Consistent Sleep Schedule
#8 Nap Early—Or Not at All
#9 Lighten Up on Evening Meals
#10 Balance Fluid Intake
#11 Exercise Early

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Ego
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Re: Sleeping Problems

Post by Ego » Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:08 am

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/13/heal ... omnia.html

That Sleep Tracker Could Make Your Insomnia Worse

Dr. Khosla said she counseled patients to let go of the unrealistic notion that they must strive for “perfect” sleep.

Dr. Hawley Montgomery-Downs, a professor of psychology at West Virginia University who has researched the limitations of sleep-tracking devices, believes the best way to assess your sleep quantity and quality is based on how your body feels.

She recommended avoiding sleep trackers altogether. Her advice? Find a week when you don’t have to get up at a certain time — on vacation, perhaps — and turn off your alarm. You’ll sleep a lot at first, but within a few days, she said, your body will adjust and let you know when to go to bed and wake, and how much nightly sleep you truly need.

“Trust that,” she said, “instead of the device.”

theanimal
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Re: Sleeping Problems

Post by theanimal » Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:01 pm

I don't know. Those people seemed to lack some common sense. The sleep tracker is not perfect and will show that I'm sleeping if sitting or lying in one position for a while close to bedtime or after waking. For me, it helps to gamify sleep. It's an enhancer of good sleep hygiene practices rather than the opposite. I find I'm much more disciplined with the device than without it, because I don't want to get a shitty score. Even if the score is not 100% accurate, I have found it to be representative of my sleep.

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Ego
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Re: Sleeping Problems

Post by Ego » Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:43 am

theanimal wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:01 pm
It's an enhancer of good sleep hygiene practices rather than the opposite.
It's funny, but I find myself wincing every time I hear that phrase, sleep-hygiene. I know it is a phrase used by sleep experts. I can't help but wonder why they would use such a loaded word. Hygiene has so many connotations with purity, disgust and sanctity. Language can be very revealing. The sleep industry is a booming business after all.

If they want to use the word hygiene then I'll extend it to its logical conclusion, sleep-hygiene-hypothesis. :D

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiene_hypothesis

I see it as two fundamentally different approaches to a problem.

1. Remove anything in my environment that could disturb my ability to sleep well and add any number of expensive sleep-aids (drugs, supplements, special beds, pillows...)
2. Build a tolerance to anything in my environment that could disturb my ability to sleep well.

theanimal
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Re: Sleeping Problems

Post by theanimal » Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:06 pm

Fair enough. I use hygiene to describe the actions that have repeatedly yielded good sleep. With that definition, I think your 2 approaches are a false Dichotomy. As the things I'm talking about dont involve the use of any special pills, light boxes or any other special promotion out there.

I did buy a mattress within the past few months, but that was only after exclusively sleeping on the floor for the previous 3 years and not getting the type of recovery consistently each day that I know is possible.

I'm just as firm believer in removing the padding and softening of everyday life. I'm not completely removing challenges. In a couple days I'll be going fishing where I'll sleep on a gravel beach, if at all. But if I know that sleeping on a mattress and not eating, drinking water and not looking at a screen a few hours before bed far more often than not leads to good sleep and recovery, why would I not do it?

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Ego
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Re: Sleeping Problems

Post by Ego » Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:40 pm

@theanimal, I apologize if that came across as me implying that you are somehow soft. Not at all what I meant and not at all what I think of you. In fact, you are about the last person here who I'd think that about.

Like you, I have some rather unusual life experiences. Sometimes they gives me outlandish perspectives on some things. Every so often I spout them in the wrong way. Sorry about that!

bigato
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Re: Sleeping Problems

Post by bigato » Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:15 pm

The myth of the eight-hour sleep
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-16964783

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jennypenny
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Re: Sleeping Problems

Post by jennypenny » Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:23 pm

I wear two monitors now (for other reasons) and I've found them very enlightening wrt sleep patterns. One actually buzzes me when I'm not in a good sleep position and it's slowly training me to sleep in better positions. I prefer a polyphasic sleep cycle but I'm having other issues that are aggravated by it so I'm sleeping mostly at night now with only 1 nap during the day.

@theanimal -- Aren't you at the age where you're transitioning out of youth into adulthood (full brain development)? I'm pretty sure most people go through their first life-crisis-type phase then. Your sleep changes might simply be from reaching peak development. (I know I read a great article about it a while back but when I google anything related to men and transitioning, all I get is gender reassignment stuff -- not sure how to google for it)

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