Mosler: "7 Deadly Innocent Frauds of Economic Policy" (BC#2)

[Dragline]

Well, there's always tomorrow for someone to choose that book or something related. And for dreams to come true.

Nice hat-avatar, jenny. Happy Halloween!

[Spartan_Warrior]

Personally, now I think I'd rather read a competing viewpoint in the form of an equivalently introductory text on Austrian economics.

Of course, if the wheels of fate should spin round and return the book-tatorship to me, I probably won't be choosing an economic text next time. Probably gonna throw down with some deterministic philosophy tome.

[Felix]

@Spartan_Warrior:
I'd suggest Hazlitt's "Economics in one lesson" for this.

[Dragline]

Yup, this book actually reminded me a lot of that one. Lots of implicit assumptions with an apparent blindness to what is being assumed, along with a lack of data. Ends up with a view that's only valid under certain conditions, yet insists that its valid for all conditions. Thankfully, none of the name dropping, though. And much better prose generally. Hazlitt was a good journalist and writer.

But read the last chapter of this book of his as a point of comparison for Mosler and contemplate that it was written in 1983: http://www.mises.org/books/brettonwoods.pdf

Hazlitt's prediction then (and earlier -- look at the chapters before that one) was that there was going to be hyperinflation "soon". That we are still waiting tells you there is something fundamentally amiss about that model too.

Now I'm just waiting for the Claymation celebrity wrestling cage-match between Haslett and Mosler. I think its going to end in a draw with lots of Monty Pythonesque blood-spurting.

[Chad]

Now I'm just waiting for the Claymation celebrity wrestling cage-match between Haslett and Mosler. I think its going to end in a draw with lots of Monty Pythonesque blood-spurting.

I miss those MTV Deathmatches. Some of them were quite clever.

[Felix]

Well, you have this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0nERTFo-Sk

and this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTQnarzmTOc

which would go in that direction.

[Spartan_Warrior]

Thanks for the recommendations. I started looking through the Bretton Woods pdf, including the last chapter, and yeah--it sounds like it could've been written today. Thirty years later, we're still waiting on the hyperinflation just around the corner.

Wasn't familiar with the Bretton Woods convention and all of that, either. I second @5to9 above: I'm really digging having an informed group to discuss this stuff with.

I miss Celebrity Deathmatch too.

[Riggerjack]

Well, if you really want to know this stuff, look at chartalism, the basis for MMT, before mosler added populist nonsense. . Or, conversely, try monetarism, it was stuff that Milton Friedman was working out in the 50's, and is well thought out, and the basis of Greenspan's and bernanke's education and philosophy. So from a practical application standpoint, Friedman's work will help understand the goals and reasoning that got us where we are. Like all macroeconomic theory, it's wrong, but still good practice.

For just an overview, mental exercise, try freakenomics, it'll be in your library. Also, Milton Friedman did a series for PBS called free to choose, that was lots of fun. It only has one episode tied to macroeconomics, but really covers all there is to it there.

Picking up some Austrian economics is a fine fundamental starting point, but bear in mind that it is a strictly logical approach, and while logic is great, by dismissing uncertainty, it can lead to very odd conclusions.

[Riggerjack]

Felix, those were awesome links!

[Felix]

Oh I've read Hazlitt, von Mises and am now reading Man, Economy and State. I've read Friedman's Money and Freedom and also watched that PBS series. I've also watched the lectures by Walter Block on mises.org. I've read Freakonomics.

I just don't find it all that convincing. I think it works very well in the Robinson Crusoe alone on an island scenario. I just don't think they properly mapped what happens once other people get involved and got the fiat money part wrong.

I think what you call Mosler's populist nonsense goes back to Abba Lerner's idea of functional finance, which was a strong influence in terms of policy suggestions:

http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2013/04/a ... nance.html.

[Riggerjack]

Sorry, I should have addressed that last post, spartan warrior thought mosler was trying to describe the real way money works. My suggestions were for him.

Felix, I was raised on welfare, by a (mildly delusional) socialist. My current economic views are 180° out from my views in my youth. What was it you found unconvincing in those works?

[Felix]

Long and detailed PM sent.

I don't want to derail the thread and am not sure anyone else cares.

[Chad]

I don't care too much, but the shear length of the conversation between you and Riggerjack is rather fascinating. It's kind of like on Family Guy when Peter fights the chicken.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jpoki4wBwtA

[Felix]

I guess that describes it pretty well.

[Felix]

Wait till the next debt ceiling debate.

[Chad]

January is Peter vs the Chicken II.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4WGQmWcrbs

[Riggerjack]

Yeah, chad, it does seem familiar...

And just to make sure this doesn't come to an end....

Government offices shredding cash? Seriously? I mean yeah, taxes are the destruction of money, but that's figurative. And yes, since they have the presses, they could shred it in one place, and print it in another, for a net effect of zero. But the only reason I can think of to do so would be to cut out the security costs. But then the temptation for the office manager to shred 1's, instead of $100's would just be too much. The security on the shredding accounting would cost more than the armored truck service.

Now, I wouldn't put it past a government office manager to go with the less efficient option, but trying to sell that to the higher ups, with the assumption that nobody would ever say, do a news story on that, never happen.

We all know that old bills get recycled, but to think it's happening in the back room of the ranger station at MT Rainier, stretches credulity. I think it's something mosler heard one time at a cocktail party, and never questioned. That would fit the level of research for the rest of the book, too.

[DAB]

As someone who reads all sorts of esoteric MMT papers....

Wp_778 will be under my arm from now on!

Answers all of the main criticisms I have come across and quite an education in itself.

http://www.levyinstitute.org/files/down ... pubid=1912

Also for those interested here is a sample of MMT related academic papers and ect...

Some a bit above me and the average man on the street economist but a great selection of stuff regarding the level one questions someone like myself is capable of thinking of...

http://neweconomicperspectives.org/mmt-scholarship

[vivacious]

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/arc ... ow/236990/

There's a fairly good description of destroying money. I don't see a single word about taxes. It's mostly worn out bills and stuff. It does mention the creation of new money via the Fed etc.

[44deagle]

When the FED sells securities into the market that is considered destroying money since they are taking dollars out of circulation.