Early Retirement Extreme Forums

#025 12/04/2013 Having Fun with the Mainstream Media Episode 1
The following is a photo essay of ERE in the mainstream media.
I know you probably don't believe me, but I don't think too much about what the media thinks or nor do I think it effects me.
Just thought I'd have a little fun and caricature their caricature.
The episode is brought to you by...
Google Image Search Engine...

Where finding an image of anything ridiculous is right at your finger tips..
Have a nice weekend!!!
1. BEFORE ERE


1. AFTER ERE


2. BEFORE ERE




2. AFTER ERE




3. BEFORE ERE


3. AFTER ERE




4. BEFORE ERE




4. AFTER ERE


5. BEFORE ERE


5. AFTER ERE

Always great to read you different approach and thinking about so many different subjects. You're name is correct and I think it's infectious!

But what happened to your previous avatar?!

Absolutely hilarious! Specially the one with the loaded bus!

@rube: Thank you Rube. I just got a little bored with my old avatar (its been 4 months!), so in the momment, I got inspired to change it.
@spoonman: I'm a public transit guy now too, and sometimes I feel like those images ;P But you gotta go what you gotta do!

@ffj: Thanks very much for your words. It's difficult to describe how encouraging it makes me feel that any of my thoughts or what I write are connected to others.
I watched the RA Dickey piece last night too. Pretty amazing watching the pitch in Slo-mo.
The Chris Farley/Matt Foley skit made me laugh all the time
On another note:
It would be incredible if a show like 60 minutes did a piece on the 'Early Retirement Movement'.
ERE on 60 Minutes Dream
The set up would be profiling a half dozen people, similar to their Lost Boys in Sudan piece a few weeks back.
It would have some who have been living ERE for a while, some newly retired and some on their way.
I.E.

-the guy/girl living in the van

-the guy/girl living in the third world country

-MMM in Hawaii doing his thing and meetups in Vegas, etc

-Jacob doing his quant trading thing

-And yes ofcourse you'd have to have the obligatory spaghetti eating, bus riding, back pack guy (SE BR BP guy aka "see burpee" guy)
If it allowed me to meet Lara Logan, I'd be The See Burpee guy, no problem.
I think it would be an awesome piece and could really tell the ERE story in all it's full glory.
"Tick tick tick..
These six people made a choice... They decided to retire early.
But not just retire early by a few years, but for almost half their working lives.
How'd they do it? What are they doing with their lives? Their stories and their lives, coming up.."
-You'd also have that one classic shot, the 60 minute style 'town hall' with the ERE's in a room,sitting in two rows of chairs being interviewed, unable to contain their smiles and enthusiasm on their faces about the changes for the better in their lives.
One can dream I guess.

Haha, that would be awesome. I think I would be one of their “bad examples”-- the guy locked up in his studio apartment power-leveling his World of Warcraft Warlock. I fantasize...I haven’t done a video game binge since 2006.

#026 16/04/2013 Hoarding vs Consumption in ERE
I am very very conflicted these days.
Recently, I can't help escape the thought that certain avenues on the "extreme" side of saving for retirement is a form of hoarding that is not too different than the over consumption/consumerism in society that drove me to ERE.
In the over consumption/consumerist life we seek identity, meaning, pleasure, etc in materials, possession and things. We can never have enough. We live too much for the day without any foresight for tomorrow. We don't plan enough. We sacrifice our future for our present. We rationalize this via the YOLO mentality and hedonism.
However in extreme saving we seek the same thing (identity, meaning and pleasure) but on the other side of the scale, but instead of spending we are hoarding. We can never save enough. The higher the savings rate, the lower the SWR, etc the better. We stock pile our money. we keep cutting and cutting, sacrificing, for the sake of these almighty numbers. We live too much for the future. We plan too much. We forget that life was meant to be lived and we become a savings machine robot. We spend our lives hoarding security for a utopian tomorrow that may or may not come. We sacrifice our present for our future. We rationalize this via minimalism and stoicism.
The conflict that now exists in my mind is directly related to the 20/50/50 Trade off that I posted about.
Have I become a hoarder?
This post explores these thoughts.
Door #1 Vs Door #2
So many of life choices are all about a trade off of time vs money.
-You have progressive payment options on pensions where you make are give a lot more money if you opt into a pension at a later age (ie. 70), than an earlier age (60).
-If you are a shift worker, you can work that holiday to get time and a half pay.
-You can save up your vacation days and never end up using them or trade them in for 'cash'
-You can forego a lot of the things that truly do give you happiness and are good for you (health, spending time with loved ones, etc) in the name of saving, in the sake of that 'higher' level goal of retirement, 2,5, or 10 years from now.
But by doing these things, at what point does our goals defeat our purpose? Are we not trading off our time NOW for money, in hopes for better 'TIME' in the future?
It just seems that there is always a price that can buy us out, since we place so much value on saving. That we can compromise our time, because on the opposite side of things, we are hoarding money, and we derive a certain pleasure, identity,satisfaction in saving, the same way consumers do in spending.
After a while, we get so intoxicated with these numbers, this way of life, becomes the opposite scale side of the consumerist life.
We have built very complex number systems around our lifes that give us feedback that tell us our life has meaning because our savings are growing. We have effectively brain washed ourselves into believing we are following a righteous path in life that give us 'true' meaning.
We can never save enough.
Balance
This post is overly melodramatic and it is sensationalizing and polarizing some of the issues at hand. I fully admit.
It's a regurgitation of thought that has welled up. Some of it is a little bit of devils advocate. It is not a reflection on what anyone else here is doing, its just a reflection of me and some thoughts.
My path to ERE has lead to tremendous transformation in my life already (off Facebook, off drinking culture, off negative peer groups, reading voraciously, meditation, minimalism, decluttering junk, downsize move, etc). My life is already totally different than it was when I began my journey, and I am extremely grateful. In no way do i see that I have been hoarding...Yet.
However even though I am not fully ERE in my life at this point, should I really still be focusing on saving, or should I begin to spend my 'mastery' energy exploring what these changes in my life can produce? Isn't certain things more important than 'saving'?
The choice I have is to give up 1/5 (20%) of my full time income, for what amounts to tilting the numbers such that I get what I described as a 50% return in free time. This has literally knocked me off my feet.
I can't help escape the thought by saying no to this option, that I will be hoarding. More taken by the 'numbers' in my life than by actually living.
I haven't even looked yet what the concrete numbers would do if I did the 20/50/50, but I already know it would take a huge hit on my savings rate (probably more than 20%), and will most likely throw the ERE plan off from 44. It may push it to 45 or 46 or later. I honestly don't know as of yet.
But so what? I'd still be saving what would be considered a very healthy amount compared to the norm. I've already dramatically reduced financial risk in my life by downsizing residence and consumption, and my life is totally different.
By doing the 20/50/50 I'd be given what I wanted all along. Instead of a goal that defeats the purpose, I will have the purpose..
Time..
(To Be Continued...)

o

@MBGI - If you focus on mastery first, then savings become incidental. Saving money should never be a primary objective. That's why only one, actually less than one, chapter in the ERE book talks about savings.
However, as per the recent post, there's a rookie tendency to focus on what's at hand first, namely
The ability to make lots of money and invest it---as the only tool to independence.

The inability to make life meaningful by other means than spending money---as the only tool to fun.
Hence, the early strategy/perspective involves sacrificing the latter in order to save money so that provide the "stream that makes live fun as we know it" by investing.
However, as is [hopefully eventually] learned, the ability---once developed, which will take a few years to fully come by---to make life meaningful both by not spending money as well as perchance making a little money while having fun doing it renders the fascination with saving void. There are then many ways to enjoy life and there are many ways to make an income. The one-dimensional worker-spender mentality has been replaced along with words like "sacrifice" and "safety".

The desire for frugality/minimalism and a desire to move toward FI are almost always motivated by some internal unease.... an itchy brain if you will. That motivation comes from within.
Internal motivations can be ruined by applying external motivations or rewards to them. What started out as intrinsically motivated is cooped by the external motivation and undermines the autonomy.
Maybe that's what you're feeling?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-dete ... motivation

Thanks for your replies and perspectives.
@JasonR:
I am glad I'm not the only one.
I related to a lot of what you said.
The only thing that I would say is that I don't think I would have any problems in regards to ennui, lol, however, you never know till you are there.
@Ego:
You are correct by saying that I am a very internally motivated person that strongly values autonomy. And most definitely, external motivation get in the way of a lot of things I want to do.
Mmm, I still see myself as internally motivated, but the dilema/conflict is why I even have to question myself to give up one day of work.
If it hasn't been apparent my #1, #2, and #3 reason for early retirement is time.
I think it's a very unconventional proposition for a 9-5 cubicle drone to leave money on the table so that the drone can do un-drone like things.
By even questioning myself, it made my feel like I am hoarding.
The dilema/conflict also is that by leaving money on the table for time, I will delay my ERE by at least a year, maybe more. I'd also be introducing much much more risk on the number side. Being that I am usually very very good at delay of gratification and goal setting, this is another source of conflict. Again, this made me think of hoarding.
so what you are interpreting is very close
I do strongly endorse minimalism and frugality. The simplicity and clarity that was brought upon by following these practices are no sacrifice whatsoever and I would never reject that.
@jacob:
I want to make sure what I say comes out in the right way. I have very high respect for you and your perspectives. If it isn't obvious by now, reading your book had a huge impact on where I am today. And I guess I never had the opportunity directly to say this as of yet, but thank you.
I think we think quite differently in a few areas. However, I believe at the core level, there is much more that binds us, than separates us, and a lot of the 'different' is just nuance.
But here goes..
"If you focus on mastery first, then savings become incidental. Saving money should never be a primary objective."

-If this statement is to be interpreted as a general philosophical statement of life, i.e. follow ones passion, do what you love, then I don't necessarily disagree. Being true to oneself and following ones competencies will lead to a very satisfying life. I can't argue with that. But it doesn't necessarily make one FI or ERE.
-If it means that following any mastery skill(s) will make you FI or ERE in and of itself, I disagree. The world is filled with masters who live a life of mastery, who are no where near being FI or ERE. In Robert Greene's Mastery I don't think any of the Masters every achieved being FI, let alone ERE. Benjamin Franklin may have been the exception, but the rest were merely extremely passionate people who lived extraordinary lives. Davinci and Picasso come to mind. In modern day, professional athletes and actors/singers (ie. 1%ers in their respective fields) who focus on their mastery without focusing on saving, end up broke.
-If it means only following those practical mastery skills that will allow one to self sustain oneself for FI, I can't necessarily argue with that either. However, one must accept that one is guided by external and monetary motivations. One must falsely convince oneself that he/she is doing this instrinsically. I mentioned this previously but almost all my mastery pursuits have very little monetary value. These days I'd love to live a philosophers life, just going around thinking, and posting on ERE, lol. However, it has near zero monetary value in FI or ERE, yet it makes me a better person.
Is Financial Independence a Mastery Skill itself or a side effect?
IMHO becoming financially literate, and then becoming financially independent is itself a Mastery skill, i don't see it as a side effect of developing 'other' mastery skills. I point to the several examples of masters who are not financially independent.
Therefore, savings as a function of the mastery skill of financial independence cannot be ignored. Savings is not a side effect, it is a variable in developing the skill of financial independence.
I fully believe and would argue that financial independence is one of the greatest mastery skills one can achieve in their life, both for themselves and also for society as a whole.
What one does with that FI is even greater.
I believe "mastery" energies are very asynchronous, i.e. it is very hard to focus on two engrossing pursuits at the same time.
And because I believe FI is a mastery skill in and of itself, rather than a side effect of some other skill, your 'mastery pursuit energy' is primarily monopolized on FI. It is not to say one cannot dabble and develop other skills (I learned and did ceramic tiles, and re-did hardwood floors for example), but not to the level of mastery, IMHO.

"However, as per the recent post, there's a rookie tendency to focus on what's at hand first, namely
The ability to make lots of money and invest it---as the only tool to independence."

Making lots of money is usually a result of mastery already pursued. Just because this comes before ERE enlightenment, I don't see this as a mistake. I see it as the most efficient quickest way possible to financial independence.
In regards to focusing on developing new skills/tools that will aid FI, as a 41 year old guy who worked since 14, again I don't see that mastery/skills begins when one becomes enlightened by ERE. If one has already worked so many jobs in so many areas, and has proven one knows how to learn and has proven resiliency, focusing on new 'redundancy/resiliency' skills, ie say wood working, car repair, is to me an inefficient way to spend whatever surplus in time you have created. Can one not spend ones time in a better way , for example, on say higher order thinking? (something I like to spend more time doing).
I do see how what you say most definitely applies to a younger generation, but if one spends over half their life working and has already developed skills to fall back on or aid in FI, then spending additional time developing more skills for redundancy IMHO is not the most productive use of time.
"The inability to make life meaningful by other means than spending money---as the only tool to fun."
(With all due respect I don't think this applies to me, i'm not sure if you were replying just in general or in response to my post specifics so I will reply to it.)
Every activity and every pursuit and passion I currently have requires very little or no money. All my sources of happiness are free or near free: Reading , Beach Volleyball, park based activities, exercising , cooking, thinking, spending (meaningful) time with my family. Travel based on my economies of scale and how i travel requires an equal amount money in how I live in North America. I appreciate this ethos of the best things in life are free, right now.. today. I don't do this as sacrifice, truly these are the things I like doing, and I hope that its been evident throughout my journal. I live a pretty blingless life, and I am happy its that way.
===
Anyhow, that's it for now. G'nite.

In your second last post you are painting, among other things, the extreme ere- person becoming a miser, a scrooge. And that is really a bad, but possible outcome if you draw (one of) your goals too tight. As Jacob notices too, financial independence is a goal among many goals, but helas too many posts on the forum are only directing to this goal.
Sometimes I get myself napped on beeing too frugal, to be not generous enough. As well for myself as for others.

And then I get luckily a comment from my DW, others or from other parts of my brain: come on broad your view, there are much more goals to strive for.

This balancing thing, is and will always be, the most difficult part of one’s life. And therefore needs practicing everyday. Beeing not static but fluent is a desirablre ability to work on.

You are a kind of retorting your earlier developed idea of getting a training in more free-time by working less, but now realising it costs (perhaps!) some money (static). Yes it costs, but gives new opportunities too! You decide, but I would say: grab it (fluent)!

The ERE montage is nice. I especially love the Chris Farley references. His "van down by the river" character is awesome.
I do feel that some people on here are more focused on the money aspect than on making life meaningful. I know I fall into that trap from time to time, but luckily it is usually short lived.
There shouldn't be a set percent to save for anyone, though I do think there is a certain miminum as you should pay for the expenses of your own old frail body. We all have to decide what we want, need, and are comfortable with. I used to try to get to 50% savings, but have come to realize that isn't for me. Some where between 30-40% is more appropriate for what I want and need (closer to 30% right now as I purchased a non-ERE car...yes, it was a want and not a need).
One of my favorite quotes:

"We are turning into a nation of whimpering slaves to Fear—fear of war, fear of poverty, fear of random terrorism, fear of getting down-sized or fired because of the plunging economy, fear of getting evicted for bad debts or suddenly getting locked up in a military detention camp on vague charges of being a Terrorist sympathizer.” - Hunter S. Thompson
I have always liked that because it seems to get to the heart of the matter...fear. Fear of not saving enough, fear of not saving enough to be considered "ERE", fear of not spending enough to be part of "normal" society, etc. We need to work past that fear and find ourselves.
And, I just saw this the one other day:

"The most dangerous risk of all - The risk of spending your life not doing what you want on the bet you can buy yourself the freedom to do it later."
A real danger for EREers who haven't found themselves, yet.

Oh, and the best part of that Farley skit is he is making an experienced SNL member (David Spade) and an experienced actor (Christina Applegate) laugh uncontrollably throughout the skit. They can barely do their lines.

@J_ and @Chad:
Thank your both for your replies.
Hearing that others sometimes fall into this trap is comforting.
I think you zero in on what is the issue at hand. Balance and moderation.
Even in 'consumerism', I believe consuming in moderation is ok. But our human nature is such that more is better and it's easy to become consumed by consumerism, and be the best consumer one can be.
Even in 'minimalism/frugality', cutting/saving in moderation is ok. But our human nature kicks in that tells us 'less is more' 'saving is more' and it becomes very easy to become consumed by the numbers, ie. what I called hoarding.
Induced by this downward spiral, there is a danger of becoming an anoxeric shell of what we once were, and become devoid of the nutrition that is living life.
Both of these extremes are very engrained in our human nature, and both are extremely easy to abuse.
I suppose what I am realizing in my last several posts of exploring my thoughts (yes sometimes they are not totally consistent ), is that I have reached my balance point.
Everything I have done up until now in regards to ERE has been a blessing in my life. I cannot emphasize enough how much better my life is now than it was before. I don't regret a thing. A large part of that are based on the teachings and inspiration of Jacob.
However, life will always present you with trade off decisions.
Up until now I never felt that I was 'hoarding', as I never saw myself compromising my time, which I value most, ie trading money for time. All the pare downs, the move, minimalism and frugality were extremely beneficial in my life, and actually gave me MORE time. It gave me tremendous clarity, but it also gave me tremendous focus on a goal.
But now if I decide NOT to do the 20/50/50, and I do follow my original ERE goal of walking away from my job in 2015, inside, I feel that I am hoarding. I feel like following that original goal defeats the purpose.
TL;DR- Developing FI in and of itself is an extremely intoxicating and consuming goal. It's very easy to fall prey to missing the forest for the trees.

o

To me MMM represents a far more realistic image of what ERE life would look like. It is not "living in a van close to a river", but looks very doable with a normal family lifestyle. I find myself having a lifestyle quite close to MMM.
This site, however, has a lot of terrific readers and contributors to the forum. However, you could get lost in a quest for nothing but the absolute cheapest, totally forgetting that life should be about more than that. Just like nobody says on their death bed that they wished they had spent more time at the office, nobody says that they wished they had saved another $50,000 by living in a van. The take away point for me is to do nothing mindlessly. Place your decisions in the context of your broader goals in life.

@JasonR:
I think your post is brilliant. Extremely insightful.
You analyze it very succinctly.
Further, you make me look far smarter than I actually am, which is again, brilliant, because that is a very hard thing to do ;p

@RealPerson:
Very nice points.
Myself personally I feel that I am much more closely aligned to Jacob/ERE, his way of life and his philosophies, than MMM.
I don't necessarily see one approach as more right or better than the other, more so one is more tailored for extroverted/people personalities and one is more tailored for introverted/cerebral personalities.
I think a lot of introverted things are pretty cheap by nature, and it also happens that a lot of introverted things are more easily negatively stereotyped, ie. living in a van down by the river (hey I know Chris Farley totally obliterated making this look 'cool' and now it iconically represents some sort of perverted stereotype, but when I think about it, living in a van down by the river is a very romantic ideal, lol, it's almost Walden like-as long as the purpose is not to live the 'cheapest' way possible).
What Thoreau did would kinda be sold as Ted Kaczynski in todays world, according to extroverted ideals. It's not sexy and it's kind of deviant. But yeah, for introverts its a kind of a romantic ideal.