COVID-19

[jennypenny]

Yeah, low carb diets are good for starving things like tumors, not viruses. It helps to be healthy to avoid complications when you get sick but it won't prevent you from becoming sick.


Re: masks
N95s are cheaper which is why they are standard, but P95s are definitely better. You can always buy R95s which are the same as the Ps but only rated for a shift, so cheaper (but not reusable).

Surgical masks have been tested against N95s and found to be just as good in real world settings (as opposed to lab settings). The only issue is the fit. Surgical masks aren't as form-fitting and gaps/leakage are a problem. If you can solve that problem, you can just use surgical masks and save the N95s for when you really need them. A washable cover for your surgical mask (search for 'fashionable' or 'stylish' surgical cover) will help with the gaps. Or tape meant for skin (i've used a cut up cover for an IV, search for 'IV dressing').


@ego -- I already posted a DIY solution for masks ... viewtopic.php?p=97624#p97624

[AnalyticalEngine]

Viruses reproduce by entering cells and hijacking cell machinery to make more viruses. Going keto won't help at all because viruses are made out of your cells and DNA. Now diabetes generally would make anything worse because you're in worse health and diabetes kills red blood cells/tissue generally, so your immune system has less ability to go kill pathogens.

I will say a lot of the comments I've heard from others, even living in the US, has worried me. I've heard the following so far:
"I have the flu shot so this won't hurt me."
"They'll figure out something." (Who is 'they' and what are they figuring out?!)
"I don't watch the news."
"I'm not worried because you only get it from eating whales." (???)
"They already have a cure for pneumonia."

Not to mention everyone in my office already has awful cold etiquette. People constantly come in while sick and cough on every surface available. Working in an open office just means cough vapor droplets get to infect more people.

[Ego]

@ego -- I already posted a DIY solution for masks ... viewtopic.php?p=97624#p97624

If we were really interested in attracting attention to our extreme end of the FIRE community we'd be machine gunning press releases at local media offering women willing to demonstrate our resourcefulness by making masks with just the clothes on her back, live in studio. Guaranteed to go viral. Volunteers?

[ertyu]

Viruses reproduce by entering cells and hijacking cell machinery to make more viruses. Going keto won't help at all because viruses are made out of your cells and DNA. Now diabetes generally would make anything worse because you're in worse health and diabetes kills red blood cells/tissue generally, so your immune system has less ability to go kill pathogens.

Thanks for the education, it's useful to have this one debunked as it's common in some semi-educated bro-science circles: keto and water fasting cure everything, don't you know

[diracwinsagain]

Thanks for the education, it's useful to have this one debunked as it's common in some semi-educated bro-science circles: keto and water fasting cure everything, don't you know

Well wait. I don't buy keto, but this isn't remotely debunked. The cells *hosting* the virus need *something* to make the virus copies out of. You'd have to show that *something* isn't sugar. Otherwise the only thing the bro-scientists are guilty of is being a little fast and loose with what's doing the extra eating.

[Sclass]

Well wait. I don't buy keto, but this isn't remotely debunked. The cells *hosting* the virus need *something* to make the virus copies out of. You'd have to show that *something* isn't sugar.

I love things that are right for the wrong reasons.

[tonyedgecombe]

I love things that are right for the wrong reasons.

This thread is becoming an education for me.

[AnalyticalEngine]

Viruses hijack the exact same metabolic and protein-producing pathways that your cells use in their normal, everyday function. So instead of your cells producing normal cell enzymes and proteins, it's now producing virus proteins. The only way keto could remotely stop virus reproduction is if it stopped a specific normal cell or protein from functioning, at which point you're dead anyway. Given that keto only induces ketosis, which is only a metabolic replacement for glucose cellular respiration, but still leaves your cells able to function normally, there is absolutely no reason to believe keto could stop virus reproduction.

Your cells do a whole hell of a lot more than just eat sugar, and they need a whole hell of a lot more than sugar to function.

[diracwinsagain]

Viruses hijack the exact same metabolic and protein-producing pathways that your cells use in their normal, everyday function. So instead of your cells producing normal cell enzymes and proteins, it's now producing virus proteins. The only way keto could remotely stop virus reproduction is if it stopped a specific normal cell or protein from functioning, at which point you're dead anyway. Given that keto only induces ketosis, which is only a metabolic replacement for glucose cellular respiration, but still leaves your cells able to function normally, there is absolutely no reason to believe keto could stop virus reproduction.

Your cells do a whole hell of a lot more than just eat sugar, and they need a whole hell of a lot more than sugar to function.

Good enough for me!

[ertyu]

Viruses hijack the exact same metabolic and protein-producing pathways that your cells use in their normal, everyday function.

i wonder if body is smart enough to target those cells when autophagy sets in. i also wonder if there's a connection between the energy source and the speed of the reaction. When you fast, you eat 100% fat - yours. you taper down carbs from what's left of your glycogen then replace that with a tiny amount of mostly protein from autophagied cells. as you do, there's this "less human growth hormone" effect that helps with ageing. well, human growth hormone is ultimately for triggering the synthesis of stuff to grow with? so there may ver well be a connection.

of course, as with anything related to fasting, i bet the studies haven't been done. if they had rhonda patrick would'a made a video

[AnalyticalEngine]

I'd be careful jumping to any conclusions about keto and virus immune response. Sure, keto might help in the sense general health helps, but I'm seeing some misunderstanding in this thread on how viral infections work.

Viruses are roughly made out of two parts: a protein casing that protects them and RNA/DNA. To attack a cell, the virus injects its genome into the cell. The viral genome then inserts itself into the cell genome. Thus virus genome becomes your genome. This is also why some viruses can cause cancer.

Anyway, virus genome overrides normal cell function and the cell starts to make virus proteins instead of cell proteins. Eventually this kills the cell and the cell explodes into more viruses.

Your body isn't helpless though. It can produce killer T cells that are specialized for that virus. Killer T then goes off and murders the infected cell before it can make viruses.

My point is there's no reason to think keto helps here unless you can name the specific protein or pathway that's being altered.

[ertyu]

Killer T then goes off and murders the infected cell before it can make viruses.

Could water-fasting induced autophagy make this process faster?

I am clearly a muggle on this topic and your explanations are very clear and pointed. Thanks.

[black_son_of_gray]

I'm seeing some misunderstanding in this thread on how viral infections work.

Indeed! It would be more productive for the curious to look up a book on "Introduction to Cell Biology/Microbiology/Immunology" and just read it. Here's a place where you can find free books (thanks US government!) for just this purpose: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/browse/ (I know there are intro books - you may have to do a couple searches - because I saved my students some money in the past by using a textbook I found there. A 10-year old intro book is more than adequate. Hell, Wikipedia probably isn't too bad, if not unstructured.)

edit: can't vouch for it, but found this too: https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Immunology

[jacob]

Thank you guys (AE and bsog)!

As another muggle or semi-muggle (I had to look that up), I appreciate [your competence] having tried to reconstruct [my understanding from] various unorganized factoids from nonfiction edutainment and google searches. I suggest staying away from wikipedia for anything microbiological because there are so very many details and exceptions to how things work that it's easy to derail if following random rabbit holes. I've written a handful of responses in this thread and proceeded to delete them already.

Unlike physics which usually leads to the same grand unified theory end point, this problem goes in all kinds of still-not-well-understood directions and as a noob it's very easy to believe that one has understood the big picture whereas in reality one has just traveled one path down the google hole. => Structure is key in microbiology because it's not inherent to the field!!

DW and I are currently going through https://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses ... eases.html ... Doing that from the outright would have saved me a lot of time reading popular nonfiction accounts while trying to generate the/a coherent framework on/of my own over the last couple of years.

[Dream of Freedom]

Six thousand people on board a cruise ship in Italy have been barred from disembarking, while health officials check if a Chinese passenger has symptoms of coronavirus.

https://news.google.com/articles/CBMiMm ... id=US%3Aen

I can definitely think of worse places to be quarantined.

[Ego]

An expert in China is quoted as saying pets can become infected and transmit...

Li Lanjuan pointed out that the new coronavirus is transmitted between mammals, so mammals need to be prepared. "Owners need to strengthen the management of pets. If pets are exposed to outbreaks and patients, they also need to be monitored."

Again, google translate from:
http://www.chinanews.com/gn/2020/01-30/9073220.shtml

[jacob]

Indeed! It would be more productive for the curious to look up a book on "Introduction to Cell Biology/Microbiology/Immunology" and just read it.

Seeing as there are 1100+ entries ... could you narrow it down to some specific links for those of us who don't know what we don't know?
Like this one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK2394/ ? I'd also be willing to splurge and spend $7 on a used textbook on amazon.

Usually the noob problem is not access but in not wasting time on details and picking a relevant book which noobs can't do yet. Most of us are Wheaton 1-3 when it comes to this.

[classical_Liberal]

Cost makes sense for N95.

The only issue is the fit.

Which is why you need to be fit tested for N95's. FYI plenty of people just don't "fit" into any of the mask sizes correctly and can't use them. Any facial hair will cause leakage, I'd rather get the Wuhan coronavirus than shave my beard.

Or tape meant for skin (i've used a cut up cover for an IV, search for 'IV dressing').

This is called tegaderm. Personally I wouldn't trust it's seal to remain airtight.

[classical_Liberal]

If you go down the medical rabbit hole, please realize medicine isn't physics. You can pretty much find a study and even a single confirmational study showing almost any general behavior can help or hurt "X". The problem is there are too many variables to human biology and its interaction with the environment. You can't control the variables, as much as you'd like to try. At best you get a quasi-experimental data in which meta analysis of study clusters shows similar outcomes. Personally, I think general human physiology is particularly interesting though, we are amazing biological machines

[AnalyticalEngine]

WHO just officially declared it a global health emergency.