Early Retirement Extreme Forums

Revan wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 25, 2025 1:44 pm

I find it so weird. I recommend ERE or the Mad Fientist podcast to friends and they don’t bite. They don’t get excited. They say that must be a suffering life in ERE with only $7000 or boring if retired. (Having nothing to do) Some don’t even bother looking it up. It’s their loss. Right now as seniors they're only caring about grades and college admissions. Retirement or FI isn’t even in the mind-frame.

Jacob has talked about the importance of the right message at the right time from the right person. Very few people will care for a logically thought out argument, indeed even INTPs (types most likely to bite at the logical deduction) have rejected ERE from me.

So I'd say, worry less about convincing others and let them watch what you do, people like to copy. Find out what could be the carrot vectors for them to adopt a more ERE lifestyle if you must convince them.

I'm enjoying following along on your journal! Best of luck. You are considering stuff that I started to think about at the end of undergrad, so you have an excellent headstart

Bicycle7 wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 25, 2025 3:03 pm

Jacob has talked about the importance of the right message at the right time from the right person. Very few people will care for a logically thought out argument, indeed even INTPs (types most likely to bite at the logical deduction) have rejected ERE from me.

So I'd say, worry less about convincing others and let them watch what you do, people like to copy. Find out what could be the carrot vectors for them to adopt a more ERE lifestyle if you must convince them.

I'm enjoying following along on your journal! Best of luck. You are considering stuff that I started to think about at the end of undergrad, so you have an excellent headstart

That’s right. I should be focusing on developing the lifestyle; they could potentially copy. I’m not sure what would be "the carrot" though. Thanks for liking the journal!


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Finished the copy writing book today. I’m going to implement limiting myself to one hour a day of reading. Focusing on building other skills. I’ve been reading a lot. So I have a lot of theory but not a lot of practice.

I’ve been looking back at my previous replys… I have no idea sometimes what I was thinking during writing. Oh well, that’s how it is. I should probably edit before I post.


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Today, I decided it would be better to go through one more book before limiting my time reading. I decided that book would be Ultralearning by Scott Young. I got through most of the book today; I will be starting my ultralearning project tomorrow. So, guess what it is? Its writing. I’ll be practicing writing for the next 28 days.

If all goes well I’ll be using Ultralearning to learn other interesting little skills.

————
Also, sidenote to 7Wannabe5, still haven’t gotten around to reading "It's a Guy Thing: An Owner's Manual for Women, but I’ll get around to it! Eventually.

Essay:
Simplicity is Known by Many Followed by Few

People know that the basic needs are food, water and shelter; society deems cars, phones, mansions as “necessary” or “essential.” Todays cars are fitted with sweet cool air conditioning, heated leather seats, and their own touchscreens. In contrast, the cars at the beginning of the 20th century were simply a motor on four wheels. Henry Ford’s Model-T made for farmers could be repaired by the owner themselves. All the ability to work on their own projects, follow dreams, and retire in comfort. Simplicity can improve your life, and yet you won’t because society doesn’t. You’ve growing used to the luxuries of life wanting more and more. Addicted to following the majority without asking why. Simplicity knows best. Simplicities definition however changed from the past, the present, and the future.
Before the 1920s, you had to rely on yourself and your neighbor. Foods were made by the day and luxuries of life were either life itself or the occasional pure milk shake. There were no alternatives of reliance like the internet, instagram, no worldly international view of information. People relied on books, their neighbors, their families knowledge. Their life copied the past as neighbors did to. They knew their neighbor on a first name bases working together to solve a cold winter. Kids knew how to cook, find water as they’re we’re no distractions. Neighbor helped neighbor and friend helped friend, this was the collective knowledge of the past which today has been replaced by the internet.
The present age complicates life with the rise of the internet and AI. People are competing not against themselves and neighbors, but against the world. We again mirror each other; we mirror what is seen through a screen. We can, at the click of a button, purchase nearly anything and usually purchase more than we need. This reliance on quick fixes becomes the new definition of simplicity: reliance on technology. No can people stick their hands in an engine without a wide array of manufacturing tools; Cars now require the need for a mechanic. Engines are no longer a block and a few wires. Technology has the advantage of information two seconds away; however, at the neglect of learning from personal relationships and yourself. Something’s wrong? Internet it. Answers are given to us, but we don’t understand the fundamentals, the basics, simplicity. An analogy would be many know how to use a computer, few know how to make one. To find simplicity one has to go back to the basics and know their neighbor.
Our future world will grow into a world without understanding. AI taking over jobs and education. AI will replace jobs such as librarians, fast food cashiers, and some others. In the schools, AI replaces students ability to write. While schools have put up preventions, students will go for the easy way. For books, they’ll look at cliff notes to understand the text. My guess the age old adage of “Many know how to read, few know how to write” will have to be updated to “few want to read, few want to write.” The future definition of simplicity will be automating everything. We have to work to understand the basics. The past simplicity makes life easier focusing in on the basics while the present and the future focus on relying on technology.

That is day 1 of Ultra learning writing. If there’s something I can improve upon, let me know!

Thanks for sharing your essay. Interesting image of comparing a modern car to a T-Ford. I think people in the 1920s would compare it to something they had before, like a horse drawn cart, and then the T-Ford is quite the luxury. It's all part of the wave of increased availability of energy that started hundreds of years ago. Energy availability is supposed to have peaked. Yet I read that China has tripled their number of cars from 100M to 300M in the last 10 years, so perhaps we're not quite at the top yet.

Looking forward to your next essay!

Why I Won’t Join the Military and Maybe You Shouldn’t Either

Note: I have never been in the military. This is based off of research and personal opinion. Do your own research! This is for the U.S. Military.

Watching videos and scanning, researching the internet for information convinces me not to join the military. I've been researching for over five years and only recently realized that would be a terrible idea. I won’t join because of the personal freedom and time given up. About 50% of the skills veterans learn in the military isn’t sought for in jobs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OlkBNOLDg). You’ll be constantly told “Embrace the suck.” Or “Hurry up and wait.” The military isn’t a job; it’s a lifestyle. Its team driven work with no performance pay, so the government pays relatively cheap comparing to the private sector. Most military jobs are non-combat jobs in a desk; you’ll be paid more in the private sector or work in the public.
You give up more than you realize by joining the military: your time, your health, your opportunities. Contracts are a minimum of eight years, usually four active and four in the reserves. The military is all an all-volunteer force… until you sign the dotted line. You age faster in the military-especially in Special Operations and Combat jobs-as you’re in the field or staying up till 03:00. You are under the control of the government 24/7/365 days a year, oh, you want to go on vacation? DENIED.
There are so many other options for you to pursue in the world and the military limits them. Severely. You’re told to move from Texas to Germany to another place every three to four years, potentially sooner. Why not have your health, independence, and time on your own terms. You’re a “patriot,” “believer in democracy,” but that doesn’t have to be in the military.
What about defending the homeland? Defend the homeland from home. If there’s a big enough conflict and you’re an American male, you’ll be called up.
Focus on helping your local community, helping others, and leading by example. You can help way more as an individual on the outside than in the military.

If your joining for discipline, “testing yourself,” glory, because your parents said so, don’t. Join (or make) a gym if you want discipline. Test yourself on learning something challenging that can expand opportunities. If you’re joining to achieve financial independence faster, I believe it would hinder your timeline. You can save a lot of money in the military, but you can’t make a lot. Joining the miliary is a sacrifice; that is why we thank them for their service.

If you do join, there are only two jobs I suggest: Special Operations and flying.
Disclaimer: I am only giving advice from my research. Do not follow things blindly. Do your own research.

You must be at least 17 to join special operations or 20 to join Army Special Forces. Join competitive sports in high school such as football, water polo, rugby, wrestling. Run six days a week to build up stamina. You need to be able to run at least at minimum, 50 miles per week to get through a Special Operations “hell week.” You not only need to be physically prepared, but also mentally prepared. Books like Relentless by Tim Grover and OverAchievement by John Elliot will show the mindset of the elite (Mostly in sports). It’s Your ship: Management Techniques from the Best Damn Ship in the Navy, by Captain D. Micael Abrashoff will show you the cost of good leadership.

Reading books will show you the work ethic, discipline, and team work you need developed by the time you sign the dotted line.

Doing hard jobs like Construction, in particular roofing and cement (for a year or two at least) helps build the mindset. Because you’ll be working from early in the morning and going to bed exhausted will be your new daily life.

If you grew up on a farm and worked all day, you’re more likely to pass. There was a study in the 1990s about the success rate of wrestlers. (Look thou Jake Zweig videos if you want to find it) They have a higher success rate especially if they’re a state champion.

For the Enlisted you get one shot of making special ops or maybe two depending on the pipeline and external factors outside of your control.
If you fail and for example signed an 18x contract (Special Forces, Army). You’ll be assigned to the regular infantry or any other job that no one else wants. So, its simple. If you join and go from 0-60 miles per week. It does not matter how mentally strong your mind is. Your body will develop shin splints than go to worse injuries. If you get hurt, you are out.
And by joining, I mean compete to even have a chance of making a special ops team. You should look up Jake Zweig. Have a mentor to guide you. The probability of you passing so young are low.
Email Mr. Zweig—or another mentor-- for his workout program and follow it to the letter.

On the flying side, you need to at least be a warrant officer to fly. Flying can be in any branch, but the Air Force has the best quality of life. I believe it’s a 10-year contract for everyone that becomes a pilot.

If you want to become an officer the best leadership school is West Point followed by the other academies. (Note you will only be leading soldiers until promote to Major(eight year point), then you have a lot of staff jobs, and maybe command a battalion when you make Colonel (Early 20ish year point.) Make sure 110 percent you want to join the military over all other jobs in the world. (Note: As an officer you do not get to choose your branch; you are the needs of the military)

Anyways, if you’re 110% sure then join clubs in high school, become president. Join team sports and become team Captain. From my research, the academies like leaders to go to be highly successful all-around leaders.
You need to have the highest GPA possible and pass Calculus, Physics, and Chemistry. Look up the specifics for the academy you want to go to and find a mentor.

Currently, if you are white, you are at a disadvantage. (this research is pre-presidential election, so results may vary) If you’re a minority, congrats your chances of getting in increase. Also, moving to a county that has almost no people applying to the academy is helpful in getting an appointment from your congressman. Do your own research to find these counties.

Succeeding in the academies will mean you will give up your weekend and nights. You will put in more work than others.

John H. Reed at http://www.johntreed.net/gotousma.html recommends most not to go to West Point.
The youtuber “Life is a Special Operation” and the Ranger handbook, and the book “Ruck up and Shut up” I’ve been told are good resources of information.

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This is the baseline knowledge you should consider before entering. Is this really what you want to do?

delay wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 01, 2025 5:40 am

Thanks for sharing your essay. Interesting image of comparing a modern car to a T-Ford. I think people in the 1920s would compare it to something they had before, like a horse drawn cart, and then the T-Ford is quite the luxury. It's all part of the wave of increased availability of energy that started hundreds of years ago. Energy availability is supposed to have peaked. Yet I read that China has tripled their number of cars from 100M to 300M in the last 10 years, so perhaps we're not quite at the top yet.

Looking forward to your next essay!

We're always at the pinnacle of an age constantly growing until were not. Technology has easily allowed for automation to increase car production. Production will increase as long as someones making a profit.

Thanks for reading, @delay!

Revan wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 01, 2025 12:44 pm

I won’t join because of the personal freedom and time given up. About 50% of the skills veterans learn in the military isn’t sought for in jobs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OlkBNOLDg). You’ll be constantly told “Embrace the suck.” Or “Hurry up and wait.” The military isn’t a job; it’s a lifestyle. Its team driven work with no performance pay, so the government pays relatively cheap comparing to the private sector. Most military jobs are non-combat jobs in a desk; you’ll be paid more in the private sector or work in the public.

My recommendation is to only join the military if you feel like it will positively impact your life. The military is a transformational experience so if you are perfectly content with your current lifestyle, skills, purpose, etc then I would not join. Similarly, I would not join if you think it's a fast track to making a lot of money, although the benefits are significant and one can easily reach FIRE on a military salary (will be easier if you go officer since pay is higher, but that requires a college degree). There are many tax benefits, unofficial financial benefits like fees waived for travel credit cards, medical benefits like free comprehensive healthcare for you and your SO/kids, education benefits, and others that should all be factored in to the total compensation package.

The military should be thought of as a profession rather than just a job. There are many professions like doctor, lawyer, professor(?), firefighter, police officer, etc that demand a particular lifestyle that forms a core component of an individual's identity. There is no performance pay, although those that perform better will get better training, better schools, better assignments, and get promoted faster (which leads to more pay). The video link didn't work but IMO the soft skills you get from the military are the most valuable. It's relatively easy to teach someone with the aptitude to learn a particular skill for a job, it's much harder to teach someone to be a team player, leader, or to "embrace the suck".

Revan wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 01, 2025 12:44 pm

You give up more than you realize by joining the military: your time, your health, your opportunities. Contracts are a minimum of eight years, usually four active and four in the reserves. The military is all an all-volunteer force… until you sign the dotted line. You age faster in the military-especially in Special Operations and Combat jobs-as you’re in the field or staying up till 03:00. You are under the control of the government 24/7/365 days a year, oh, you want to go on vacation? DENIED.

There are always opportunity costs with anything, it just depends what kind of life you want to live. In terms of opportunities, the military opened many doors that I didn't even know existed before. I'm not sure I aged faster other than I felt much more mature for my age than my peers who were not in the military. Health is definitely a concern, but the nice thing is that if you get injured on the job or develop a health condition while in the military, your VA medical coverage for that issue will be covered for life and depending on the severity you might even get some percentage of disability compensation. I know of several people who got injured while working non-military jobs and/or got injured while doing a hobby that had long term negative impacts. Ironically, I developed more medical issues from a desk job with an irregular schedule than I did from the infantry, airborne (parachute) jumps, time in combat zones, and time in Special Operations.

I know plenty of lawyers, doctors, finance workers, etc that are severely restricted on when they can take vacation. That's a feature of high-demanding and high-paying career fields. They might not be under government control for 24/7, but they are under company or boss control close to 24/7. They can quit anytime but not really because that means giving up their whole career and/or a ton of money. They all seemed much less fulfilled than I did when I was working my longest hours in the military.

Contract time varies but unless you sign some crazy bonus (which I would probably not do before you know if you're a fit for the lifestyle), usually you can be out after 3-4 years of active duty, followed by 4 years in the inactive ready reserve (IRR) which means you do nothing military related but you could be called up before the Selective Service recruits in a WW3 scenario.

Revan wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 01, 2025 12:44 pm

If your joining for discipline, “testing yourself,” glory, because your parents said so, don’t. Join (or make) a gym if you want discipline. Test yourself on learning something challenging that can expand opportunities. If you’re joining to achieve financial independence faster, I believe it would hinder your timeline. You can save a lot of money in the military, but you can’t make a lot. Joining the miliary is a sacrifice; that is why we thank them for their service.

The military is kinda like the crowbar method to grow as a human. It will change you in ways that you cannot possibly comprehend until you come out the other side. It is a deeply tribal experience; preparing for and participating in violent conflict as a tribe is what humans have done since the dawn of time. There were times where I would go 30+ days without being physically alone. I'm talking about for every minute of the day whether that's eating, sleeping, showering, shitting, working, etc having another human within 10 feet of me. This sounds crazy to us in the modern world but that is how humans lived for most of history up until very recently. We are a social species.

However, YMMV. I tried really hard and was rewarded because of it. I showed aptitude for it. There were many of my peers who tried to coast along and give it minimal effort. They bitched and complained that nothing ever went their way.

What I found most interesting about the military profession is that it is holistic, so it jives well with the principles of becoming a renaissance man. There are very few jobs that simultaneously incorporate physical fitness, technical/intellectual skill, adaptive leadership, and dynamic problem solving. The military is hard, but I think young people should do hard shit. Hard shit builds confidence. Nothing in life will ever be as hard as some of the stuff I did in the military, so I therefore know that I am prepared for anything life will throw at me. The downside is that now everyday life can seem dull or un-engaging compared to my baseline.

Revan wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 01, 2025 12:44 pm

You must be at least 17 to join special operations or 20 to join Army Special Forces. Join competitive sports in high school such as football, water polo, rugby, wrestling. Run six days a week to build up stamina. You need to be able to run at least at minimum, 50 miles per week to get through a Special Operations “hell week.” You not only need to be physically prepared, but also mentally prepared. Books like Relentless by Tim Grover and OverAchievement by John Elliot will show the mindset of the elite (Mostly in sports). It’s Your ship: Management Techniques from the Best Damn Ship in the Navy, by Captain D. Micael Abrashoff will show you the cost of good leadership.

Competitive sports are big because the skills transfer very well to the military. Athletes are already used to physical training, working as a team, being mentally and physically exhausted, putting the needs of the team above your own, etc. I'd probably go as far to say that you shouldn't join the military unless you played a competitive sport in high school.

Revan wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 01, 2025 12:44 pm

If you want to become an officer the best leadership school is West Point followed by the other academies. (Note you will only be leading soldiers until promote to Major(eight year point), then you have a lot of staff jobs, and maybe command a battalion when you make Colonel (Early 20ish year point.) Make sure 110 percent you want to join the military over all other jobs in the world. (Note: As an officer you do not get to choose your branch; you are the needs of the military)

These days you can just google "Program to pass X" and you'll find a progressive physical fitness program to get you in the right shape to pass any military selection. Of course there is more to passing than just physical requirements, but that will at least put you on the right footing.

I didn't got to West Point but every West Point Cadet I interacted with seemed miserable at the time. I thoroughly enjoyed my relatively normal college experience while doing ROTC. There are also many who join the military through Officer Candidate School. West Point is like an ivy league school in that it will always help you to be in the club, but I valued being well-adjusted and socialized among civilians more. Every veteran will have to re-integrate with normal society at some point and I've found the West Pointers and military brats have a harder time understanding how the average civilian lives.

You'll lead Soldiers your whole career. Even in staff jobs it's very common to be in charge of 5+ Soldiers. Even if you have no one directly under you, you still will need to demonstrate peer leadership. Command only happens at the Company/Battalion/Brigade+ level, but outside of combat where you get to maneuver a Company (very few branches in the Army get to do this), I think it's overrated.

white belt wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 01, 2025 10:47 pm

My recommendation is to only join the military if you feel like it will positively impact your life. The military is a transformational experience so if you are perfectly content with your current lifestyle, skills, purpose, etc then I would not join. Similarly, I would not join if you think it's a fast track to making a lot of money, although the benefits are significant and one can easily reach FIRE on a military salary (will be easier if you go officer since pay is higher, but that requires a college degree).

That's right. The military can change a person entire being. For me though, I want to put my hobbies even over my job. I wouldn't benefit anyone or myself by joining. I'm not content with my current skills, but I am content with my purpose and lifestyle. Each of them need work; however, increasing my skill set will lead more to the type of lifestyle I want to have.

Here's the correct link to the Youtube video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OlkBNOLDgU

white belt wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 01, 2025 10:47 pm

I know plenty of lawyers, doctors, finance workers, etc that are severely restricted on when they can take vacation. That's a feature of high-demanding and high-paying career fields. They might not be under government control for 24/7, but they are under company or boss control close to 24/7. They can quit anytime but not really because that means giving up their whole career and/or a ton of money. They all seemed much less fulfilled than I did when I was working my longest hours in the military.

I was more talking about how your time isn't your own. You need to devote everything you have to be attentive/survive. Giving up weekends and nights to practice rucking for long distances or understanding a map and how to navigate it instantaneously.

white belt wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 01, 2025 10:47 pm

The military is kinda like the crowbar method to grow as a human. It will change you in ways that you cannot possibly comprehend until you come out the other side. It is a deeply tribal experience; preparing for and participating in violent conflict as a tribe is what humans have done since the dawn of time. There were times where I would go 30+ days without being physically alone. I'm talking about for every minute of the day whether that's eating, sleeping, showering, shitting, working, etc having another human within 10 feet of me. This sounds crazy to us in the modern world but that is how humans lived for most of history up until very recently. We are a social species.

There is no job/lifestyle quite like the military. Everybody has the goal, the mission in their mind. Two people working together is better than one. A group working together is even better. All out surviving together.

white belt wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 01, 2025 10:47 pm

However, YMMV. I tried really hard and was rewarded because of it. I showed aptitude for it. There were many of my peers who tried to coast along and give it minimal effort. They bitched and complained that nothing ever went their way.

Effort*Opportunity=results
Zero effort equals zero results. Both of you had the opportunity, you put in the effort.

white belt wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 01, 2025 10:47 pm

What I found most interesting about the military profession is that it is holistic, so it jives well with the principles of becoming a renaissance man. There are very few jobs that simultaneously incorporate physical fitness, technical/intellectual skill, adaptive leadership, and dynamic problem solving. The military is hard, but I think young people should do hard shit. Hard shit builds confidence. Nothing in life will ever be as hard as some of the stuff I did in the military, so I therefore know that I am prepared for anything life will throw at me. The downside is that now everyday life can seem dull or un-engaging compared to my baseline.

Doing challenges other people aren't willing to do does lead to rewards/skill. An unwavering philosophy to face the woes of life allows one to conquer anything.

Making the Most of Life
(Ultralearning day 3)

We’ve all heard the common phrase “follow your passion.” From what I’ve seen few ask why they’re doing something. Most focus on their career, their schoolwork which sucks up all the creative juices over the course of forty years. Neglecting hobbies to receive a marginally better grade (Which after you have a job people don’t care) or the next promotion. I suggest focusing on hobbies: part-time work, long-term fun. Building skills and learning everything you’ve always wanted to learn. With enough effort, your hobby-depending on the hobby- will bring in income. It’s a side effect of doing what you want to do. I would focus on learning skills and reading books. Each person knows what skills they want to learn, but they put it off until they’re “free.” This could be until they’re financially independent or on the free weekends or the summers, but if you aren’t engaging in the activity currently, it’s unlikely you’ll do it later. I suggest doing the opposite and prioritizing the skills that you want to learn.
Flow happens when challenging work equals great skill. You don’t even notice the time passing when flow happens. You didn’t always want good grades or the next promotion and besides, your job changes when you leave, and your schoolwork eventually ends. I’m not saying you can’t choose a hobby that would help your career; I’m saying you’re limiting yourself by only prioritizing school or career. Don’t wait! Learn the skills you want to learn. Personally, I want to be self-reliant in all ways, cooking, crafts, personal finance. I go towards these goals one step at a time. (As I’m writing this, I haven’t been improving in crafts at all)
My recommendation is to join a group of people where the behavior is encouraged. ERE forums for example is the “grad school of financial independence.” I want to be financially independent, so I join the forums and soak in everything I can. Set challenges to yourself to constantly improve each day. Be 1% better than the day before. To learn something, you’ve never done before, you must actively practice it. Learn by doing not by passively watching/reading/listening: write to write, cook to cook, paint to paint. Skills are usually hard at the beginning’ It takes time to learn correctly. It takes 10,000 hours to be an expert at a skill; Only 300 to be decent at one.
Reading is great and should be encouraged; however, you need practice. In skills, Practice+(Theory)= Result. In some skills, you don’t need theory to start, but it can be helpful.
Skip the television/video games. While you might learn something, most are fillers. These days you can learn just about anything. Purposeful effort will achieve your wants. If you don’t have the tools you need to start skill XYZ, find an alternate skill that will help you. Skill stack skills on top of each other will eventually achieve your goal.
Skills compound over time. The more skills you have, the more resourceful you are. Don’t put off your hobbies, the skills you want to learn till tomorrow; do them today. Life is short and goes super quick. Enjoy your time; learn new skills! Make the most of your time because the days are evil. (When you don’t control them)

Today I finished reading "Its a Guy Thing An Owner's Manual for Women by David Deida." Wow. I think the books accurate that a masculine polarity will be so focused on some task and then get angry when bothered.

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I actually think writing is pretty fun. It's nice writing out thoughts, attempting to make essays.

Revan wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 02, 2025 4:46 am

That's right. The military can change a person entire being. For me though, I want to put my hobbies even over my job. I wouldn't benefit anyone or myself by joining. I'm not content with my current skills, but I am content with my purpose and lifestyle. Each of them need work; however, increasing my skill set will lead more to the type of lifestyle I want to have.

Here's the correct link to the Youtube video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OlkBNOLDgU

I was more talking about how your time isn't your own. You need to devote everything you have to be attentive/survive. Giving up weekends and nights to practice rucking for long distances or understanding a map and how to navigate it instantaneously.

I have many thoughts on the video you linked but I won't address the last segment in order to side step what is a political argument. I think the benefits he highlights are accurate and some of the drawbacks he highlights are accurate too. I don't really understand the time spent argument because there is an opportunity cost to everything. Injuries are real in the military but I don't agree with the broken veteran trope. I understand the relationship challenges, which is a big factor of why many service members decide to get out after 4, 8, or 10 years. It's easier when you are younger with less obligations and/or are in a career field where you can offramp into less demanding jobs (officers offramp pretty quickly into desk jobs, but enlisted are more hands on so they will often accumulate more wear/tear over the years).

Social media is going to tend to depict veterans who curtailed their service for xyz reasons. Those who had a great time are often still serving or are retired so they have little need to try to monetize their experience through social media. This guy actually annoyed me much less than many of the former SEAL vet bro influencers out there.

Would you believe there are people on this very forum "giving up" some of their weekend time to ruck for fun? Salarymen care about weekends because that is their only time off, but those of us with alternative lifestyles to include ERE differentiate little between weekend and weekday. I prefer to do most things during the week because their are less crowds. What if your job includes many activities that others do as hobbies? What if your job gives you access to resources that are unavailable to those pursuing an activity at the hobby level? For a military example, some people like to shoot guns as a hobby whether that's for marksmanship purposes, hunting, or competing in events like 3 gun/skeet/trap etc. In the military you can do that but with guns that are way more fun than what a civilian can own, all of the costs are covered, and you are even paid for the time you spend doing it!

Land navigation is entirely trained on the job; I did a lot of it and at no point did I have to spend any of my time off practicing it. Incidentally, map reading is also useful skill that translates to everyday life. I think maybe your conflating selection/initial training with what the actual day to day job is like? An initial training pipeline (especially with SOF) is going to be hard for a variety of reasons but will also end after your first year or so*. Then you are working your job where your freedoms will increase significantly. Officers will always have more of them. Combat/training will always be demanding, but it has a start and end. You are not switched on 24/7; you have time off, you have vacation time, recovery time, etc so you are not devoting everything you have to surviving outside of those specific training events.

* = I actually think that most SOF training pipelines might be more humane than what new investment bankers or surgery residents go through. For example, DW works the same or longer hours than what I saw service members in Afghanistan working while deployed. Except a deployment lasts 3-12 months and pays much better, while DW's surgery residency lasts 6 years.

white belt wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 02, 2025 5:42 pm

Would you believe there are people on this very forum "giving up" some of their weekend time to ruck for fun? Salarymen care about weekends because that is their only time off, but those of us with alternative lifestyles to include ERE differentiate little between weekend and weekday. I prefer to do most things during the week because their are less crowds. What if your job includes many activities that others do as hobbies? What if your job gives you access to resources that are unavailable to those pursuing an activity at the hobby level? For a military example, some people like to shoot guns as a hobby whether that's for marksmanship purposes, hunting, or competing in events like 3 gun/skeet/trap etc. In the military you can do that but with guns that are way more fun than what a civilian can own, all of the costs are covered, and you are even paid for the time you spend doing it!

I believe it. People like doing different activities. What's a thrill for one, isn't for another. Like you said, there's an opportunity cost to everything.
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I can't argue on a job that gives access to materials. You're right, a job can bring in resources for hobbies/fun.

white belt wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 02, 2025 5:42 pm

I think maybe your conflating selection/initial training with what the actual day to day job is like?

Yep. I focused more on the broad skills needed more than the day to day life. I probably shouldn't have posted the essay, but oh well.. (since its better to leave it up to people who've been there.)
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Thank you for your insight from your personal experience. It's nice to hear from someone who's personally been there.

Revan wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 02, 2025 12:07 pm

Neglecting hobbies to receive a marginally better grade (Which after you have a job people don’t care) or the next promotion.

Thanks for sharing your ultra learning! Many people say that an activity must have a goal. Why not look at the activity as being the goal itself? Getting a better grade in itself can be worthwhile and rewarding.

As the saying goes, "the journey is more important than the destination".

delay wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 03, 2025 7:27 am

Thanks for sharing your ultra learning! Many people say that an activity must have a goal. Why not look at the activity as being the goal itself? Getting a better grade in itself can be worthwhile and rewarding.

As the saying goes, "the journey is more important than the destination".

What I was trying to say was that a person puts so much effort into grades that they do nothing else outside of school.

I see your point though, a high grade can show progress in said subject and be a goal.

Ultralearning day 4

I’ve recently completed the Science of Well-Being Course on Coursera. (Free) This is where my inspiration came from.

The Value of Time

You don’t realize how much time is wasted until you control time (at least temporarily). Being able to learn skills you never thought you’d be able to do. The concept is known as time affluence being able to do what you want and experience what you want. Whether that be spending time with loved ones, learning new skills, watching the sun set is up to you, the point is that you have the choice. I’ve been thinking about how much a person changes from kindergarten to senior in High School. Playing with toy cars, entertaining myself for hours and hours on end, creating entire storylines for myself. Now, I spend hours on homework. And I’m told “such is life,” “get to used to it.” Being able to have time--as its something we never get back—is so important. If we don’t have time, how are we spending our life? Working or learning something that doesn’t interest you is the norm. It doesn’t bring long term fulfillment.
The course advocates that time affluence and experiences are what people appreciate the most. (I know I appreciate them) Dozens of the studies in the course show that the perfect grade, the job, “if only I had XYZ, I would be so happy,” that having more stuff doesn’t make us happier. Imagine a slick green Lamborghini passing you, the driver likes his car and other people notice him. Some want to have the car and wealth; others see the expense of the car. Neither see him, only the shell of him.
I’m advocating that we push for skills which eventually lead to time. Reading, writing, and arithmetic, our ability to reason, our thumbs make us different from animals. Use it to your advantage, and learn something, anything. The faster you or I can learn a skill, the more time we have. We become competent and that leads to long-term fulfillment. Of course, this calls for spending time on learning said skill.
For me, I don’t find working for 40 years appealing, even if it’s from home, I’d rather be reading or spending time with family. There may be period of 5-10 years where one has to do hard things that they don’t care for, and but in between, the days, the hours, the minutes, you should pursue your skill. Money can only take a person so far, and even billionaires die. Learn a useful skill.
The course also has a fallacy known as the GI Joe fallacy: “knowing is not half the battle.” It doesn’t matter if you know you want to learn, but don’t put in the effort to learn it. Time fades as life goes on; you decide how to craft your life. Do you want to be dependent on others and stuff or yourself?

Ultralearning Day 5
The gladiator and the Rich Man

A few months ago, while watching Gladiator II, the main character pursues and captures “the dream,” his father’s dream, of having a free Rome. The movie shows how both the gladiator has a simple home, a simple life, and is widely skilled. However, he lost everything when Rome took over his city: his family, his possessions, his land. As he was remarkably well skilled, he was a good fighter, public speaker, inspiring many to follow him. He led by example to make change in society. Because of the skills he had, he was able to stay alive and thrive. Money was worthless.
There is also a rich character in the movie who had sizable wealth but continues making bets until he’s in the hands of someone else. He is metaphorically chained to his master, massively in debt, having to conform/support his master’s ideas. He took to many bets, risks, and even after accumulating great wealth, lost it all because he has no sense of “enough.”
The gladiator doesn’t need money to influence people. He fights in the Colosseum with all his heart, uniting his teammates, and killing the enemy. It took him years of practice to have this skill. By having the skill, he was able to survive in the tough times. The gladiator changed a nation by acquiring great skill. He didn’t need possessions or wealth to succeed. All he needed was his own two arms and two legs.
This is the kind of sufficiency I advocate for, as many before me advocated for. Not only to be sufficient in wealth but also to be sufficient in skill. We need skills to be able to increase our opportunities in the eventuality that a problem occurs.




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Essay is a lot shorter today as I'm starting to realize all I'm doing is repeating myself in different ways about time, and skill. I'm trying to find another topics.

Decisions:
College vs Trades
College:
Benefits: White Collar job/desk.
- Able to have time to plan out life./Potentially waste four years of time.
- Higher income after college. (Assuming I graduate in four years).
- I am more likely to learn higher mathematics/physics/chemistry.
-Parents pay for it.
-Positive social aspect.
-Social approval.
-Able to have jobs from home?
Professional degrees: Electrical Engineering or Economics only. Potentially Mechanical.

Cons: Opportunity cost 4 years/delay retirement/likely no pay as I’ll have to focus full time to maintain scholarship.
- Learning material I don’t want to learn.
-Needing to shuffle around resumes.
-Job could be replaced by AI?
-Reading less outside of the school curriculum, unlikely to finish book list.


Trades: Blue Collar Job.
Benefits: Able to start immediately, around $16 an hour. Retire faster. 5-8 years depending on the savings rate.
- Learning a skill that can be used anywhere and to help people. (More interest).
- I’m more likely to read all the books on my list, as I’ll read faster and won’t have a curriculum.
-(Potential: live at parent’s home while working for next four years?)
-Living a life different than all classmates.

Cons:
-No degree/need car/More likely to get hurt.
-Negative social aspect.
-Most scholarships are only given to high school seniors. (I’ll be reading more than doing practice problems).
-I’ll be less likely to get a degree ever.
-More immigrants mean the more competitive.

I’m honestly not sure if I’m intrinsically motivated to go to college. I am motivated by the money/social part of it. I think that becoming an electrician would be more resilient and could be working man/renaissance man. I’ve been thinking about doing a work year first in the trades and then making the decision. The degree does allow for more options later on in life though.

You remind me a lot of myself at your age. I also had many second thoughts in high school about attending college after discovering ERE. Ultimately I went with the normal college degree route and am very glad I did.

A lot of the cost/benefit analysis regarding college is going to depend on 1) What you study, 2) How much you pay for it, and 3) All of the non-financial benefits associated with college.

For 1), if you study engineering, computer science, business, or math(?) then you will likely gain the skills to get a decent paying job in a prosperous industry. If you study a softer field like social sciences, humanities, arts, etc then your path to a prosperous industry is less clear and you will be competing with all of the other underemployed students that did the same thing.

For 2), do you have any scholarships already available? Do certain institutions in your state offer significant discounts to residents? It is much different to go to school for free due to scholarships compared to taking on debt. Do you already have any college credit through AP or IB classes? I came in with over semester's worth of college credits and could have easily graduated a year early if I wanted to. There is also the popular option of saving money by getting credits at a community college that has a guaranteed transfer program to another university.

For 3), it's much different to go to a large public university vs a small liberal arts college. Consider not the trivial things that are highlighted on tours like the qualify of the dining halls, the campus layout, or whether some sports team is nationally known. More importantly, consider the brand name of your college, internship opportunities, socioeconomic class, and alumni network. Concentrating regional ties can be very strong if you know what location you want to be in. I went to a public university which was good for a number of reasons, but one is that it most of the student body was in-state, which means most graduates got jobs in the same region after. Even a decade later, I have social capital and connections of all sorts in that same region because most of my college friends still live there. This was not the case for my friend who went to a private liberal arts college and now finds his friends scattered all over the country. His friends also tend to come from wealthy families and now have the commensurate upper class jobs in tech, finance, etc so consider the social class that you want to inhabit primarily.

I also think that the social aspect of college is hard to replicate outside of a college campus. In fact, for me personally as someone who spent a bit too much time in his head growing up, college was transformative because it forced me into a 24/7 social environment that also required a lot of "doing". Do not discount the impact of your environment especially at such a critical junction in development. I think the trades are great, but you might not find your coworkers to be the most intellectually stimulating. You may find that you don't jive with their free time hobbies/activities, which will make it harder for you to fit in the tribe. My impression is it's also much easier to go from college degree -> trades than vice versa.

You may now be confident in what you want but I will make the [Ok, boomer] assumption that your perspective can/will change significantly in the next few years, therefore it is worth considering the effect of each decision on long term optionality.