Early Retirement Extreme Forums

Great post, theanimal!

I'm continuing to do research, and starting to come around on the quilt.

My remaining concern with the quilt is being warm enough on the couple of nights below 20 degrees. Do you think I'd be fine with a 30 degree Revelation and my clothes on a surprise 15 degree or 20 degree night?

Maybe as an alternative I could start in February with my boots and winter sleeping bag (I have a good 0 degree one, heavy unfortunately), and then like a month into the hike after I'm sure I'd be warm enough, then have a box waiting for myself with the Trail Runners and the quilt -- and send the boots and sleeping bag back home. Hopefully my pack could handle the early colder part of the hike where I carry more stuff. Unfortunately the earlier I can start the hike the better timing it will be for my girlfriend.

In other news I've gone from "no way" on the hammock to a "well, maybe one day". I still can't fathom just a tarp though.

I assume "stove" in this sentence is a typo: "You'll need a new stove for every 8-10 days or so." It's pretty cool how these stoves are DIY. I'll need to be careful not to mess up and burn myself on the near-invisible flame.

What's the big advantage of a headlamp over a small flashlight like this (or similar) clipped to my baseball hat? (turn the clip that comes with it backwards) The headlamp has more lumens I guess, but I don't plan to do active night hiking (at least on purpose). I've worn both headlamps and baseball hat + flashlight before, and they both seem to do about the same thing, but the flashlight is much lighter, and I'm already bringing the baseball hat. (I do like the red mode on the ReVolt and the USB recharge.)

My plan regarding sunscreen was just to get a tan if it was sunny. With the baseball hat the sun won't be on my face that much.

Do you think even the Sawyer Squeeze Mini at 2oz is too bulky/heavy? 2oz for the filter (throw away the bag that comes with it) seems pretty competitive weight wise with the AquaMira, unless you really only bring a small amount of AquaMira. I get that you can bring a small amount of AquaMira and resupply, but frequent resupply would be a bit annoying (not planning to bounce box or anything). I must be missing something about the downsides of the squeeze filter, because it seems straight better to me (no chemicals, don't have to keep buying more, even the bulk shouldn't count against it if it's on top of a bottle on the side of the pack in otherwise unused space).

I love that you say I don't need a knife. I don't want to bring one; it just seems likes everyone was bringing one, so I thought I was missing something.

It's kind of a drag trying to decide between products that all seem like they'd do the job about equally well. For example the Tarptent Notch vs the Tarptent Contrail vs the Six Moon Design - Lunar Solo that I was looking at before your post... to me they all seem roughly tied, and I'm not sure how to break the tie. What about the Notch in particular had you put it as #1? It's too bad that so much of fancy lightwear gear is only online and not at REI where I could play with it in person.

Thanks again for all the help! I'm looking forward to the clothes post too.

Hi akratic,

walking the AT is a major undertaking. Finishing it probably less depends on the gear than on your will.

I've done sections of the AT and long distance hiking in Europe. Before embarking on buying lots of gear, I would advise you to use an evolutionary approach to choosing your gear. Especially clothing, backpack (!) and shoes depend on fit to your body. So e.g. an Osprey pack may be "the best", but it may not fit your back. Try gear as much as possible.
For shoes it really depends on your taste what works best. I often hike in sandals and carry leather boots for wet weather. Others choose trail runners.
For cooking, some just heat water and put it in prepared hiking meals. I like more cooking myself near supply points. Alcohol stoves work well, and the trangia ones are robust and work in wind.
A really nice packing list, including the change of gear is: http://andrewskurka.com/wp-content/uplo ... lution.pdf from Andrew Skurka.

happy trying!

simplex

That Sawyer looks interesting, but I wonder how much resistance it adds to the flow... When I'm hiking I usually end up going chemical because I get tired of cranking away at a slower pump when I'd rather be moving.

simplex that gear evolution pdf is great! Do you know what blog post references it? I found this post on "stupid light" while looking for the gear evolution writeup that must have gone with that pdf. I found an MMM thread too.

Unfortunately a lot of the gear I'd like to try on seems to be only available online.

I agree the mental stuff (and the knees) will be more important to finishing than the gear (provided the gear is decent) but I have this cursed need to optimize.

akratic wrote: Unfortunately a lot of the gear I'd like to try on seems to be only available online.

Go to an expo like this to check out gear in person http://alltrails.com/events/2014/04/gea ... pril-26-27

You might also try an expo before a big competition (like w.e.rock or something)--those expos are usually free. Contact the companies you're interested in and ask where they're showcasing their gear.

Researching gear is fun ... like building the ultimate computer hardware thing is fun. But ultimately, camping and hiking is not precision engineering. You can go camping with the plates and cups and pans from your kitchen. You can light a fire with a match. Your tent can be a blue $8 polytarp. Your quilt can be a few blankets or a bed cover. Your bag can be an old school backpack from Salvation army if you don't already have some way of carrying all that. Later, you can add a PFD and go sailing with your camping gear... which is really your kitchen and school gear. Etc.

I'd suggest that rather than reading reviews and reports, just take what you have already and go out for a night or two and see what sucks in the equipment department. Replace that part, etc.

All of the gear I mentioned above can be returned after trying on at home. The problem with most lightweight gear is that it isn't at big retail stores (like REI) because it doesn't appeal to the average shopper. I do highly recommend testing any gear before you take it out for use.

Yes, gear is not the only thing but it plays a big factor. I don't remember the exact number but only something like 20-30% who attempt to thru-hike the AT finish it. A big portion of these people start with big packs (like Andrew Skurka). As I'm sure you know, by starting with a lightweight pack you'll be way ahead of the vast majority and not have to replace any gear.

With regards to the tents. Honestly, they'll all work quite well. I just picked that one because of the vestibules which gave it more room (something I thought might be nice). The Lunar Solo looks great. It's all personal preference. You can't go wrong with any of them.

The 30 degree quilt may work on a surprise 15-20 degree night with good insulated clothes..If not, you'll be cold, but you'll survive . It may be a good idea to bring the winter bag for the first few weeks or so. I'd look into what the weather usually is around that time.

The sentence with the stoves wasn't a typo...The tin cans are very lightweight, but unfortunately not very durable. The good thing though is that cat food cans are pretty cheap (like .50 cents- $1.50), or free if you know someone with cats.

Honestly, the Sawyer may be fine. I have no idea. My only experience is with AquaMira or nothing at all (not a wise option on the AT!). I'd just be wary, as JohnnyH said, of having to pump too much or change a lot of filters.

I'm not sure if they said it in the video (haven't seen it in a while) but stupid light is referring to some kits under 5 lbs..You won't be in that category. Your not wrong in wanting to optimize. A lot of hikers do it, whether its Ray Jardine with his cheap gear, or Andrew Skurka with his high end stuff. I believe its necessary.

Finally before I get to clothes...There are two avenues here. The cheap route or the higher end stuff. Like Jacob said you could go to the hardware store or Wal-Mart or wherever and assemble a fair amount of your kit out of many of the products there. One of the books I recommended, Ultralight Backpackin' Tips, has a ton of great info on obtaining/making your own cheap gear. Or you could go this avenue. Either way is fine. After all, in his day John Muir would go out for a week with only a blanket and a loaf of bread!

Onto clothes...

You will be able to try a lot of this on, mainly at REI or maybe a clothing store. If you own anything similar to what I mention, just use that. This will be a lot less specific than my previous post. You can't go too wrong with most options. If you would like me to be more specific, just ask.

Socks You'll want two pairs of socks. One for hiking and one for sleeping. Don't use your sleeping socks outside of sleeping! A pair that is always dry at night is a nice thing to have. Your dry pair can be just wool socks. I recommend Smartwool, Darn Tough Vermont (Lifetime guarantee) or a regular store brand similar to the others. For your hiking pair, you can have another pair of wool. (Some use neoprene but I don't think that would be necessary for the AT).

Bottom Layers
Starting at the bottom...for underwear it'll be good to have both short and long. Long is helpful for any chilly nights in the quilt. For the short pair, you'll want a pair that is made out of polyester (or something similar). This is light and quick drying. You can really choose any pair.. I use some from Patagonia http://www.patagonia.com/us/product/men ... ?p=32496-0 For long underwear its the same thing, but you could choose wool as well. Any pair from REI, Patagonia or whoever will work well.

It would probably be nice to have a pair of pants/shorts for the AT. From what I hear, REI's Sahara convertible pants are pretty good http://www.rei.com/c/mens-pants. Or you could wear pants in winter/spring and mail ahead a pair of polyester/nylon shorts for summer? Your call.

Top layers For the top, you'll need a base layer and a midweight layer. Your base layer will likely be long sleeves until summer, when you can go short sleeves. The material can either be synthetic (polyester etc.) or wool. No cotton!! Any long sleeve or short sleeve will work well. Just pick out one you like from Patagonia, REI or wherever. IMO, the best is the Ibex Hooded Indie. It's expensive, but has worked great for me. http://shop.ibex.com/Apparel/Mens-Long- ... oded-Indie

Your second top layer is a mid-weight option. Fleece works well here. I was going to recommend mine because it has worked pretty well for me but I can't find it online anywhere..So I'd just say go with whatever you like here or what Skurka recommends off his list. I'm not of much help for this option.

Rain Gear There's a few options here. Some people are fine with using a poncho, some like a jacket + pants, and then Mike Clelland (Ultralight Backpackin' Tips) uses a rain skirt plus a jacket. It's personal preference. If you decide the poncho route, I'd just pick something up from REI. It'll be a bit more durable than anything you find at a non-outdoors store (but heavier than one from a lightweight company). If you're interested in the rain skirt and jacket, it's very effective and cheap. You can get this http://www.qcsupply.com/70662-tyvek-dis ... oductfeeds Cut it off below the knees and along the inseams on the inseams on the inside legs toward the top. Ugly! But light and effective!

If you want to go with the regular combo, I recommend GoLite's Tumalo rain pants. http://www.golite.com/Mens-Tumalo-Full- ... 47183.aspx

Not entirely sure about jackets since the one I use I got for free..Anything lightweight with good reviews is fine. The matching Tumalo jacket would probably work.http://www.golite.com/Mens-Tumalo-Rain- ... 47192.aspx

Winter You'll likely need another insulation layer if you're starting in February. Both for the top and bottom. Your choice is between down and synthetic. Down is lighter and very warm but you have to be careful about not getting it wet. It takes a while to dry. Check out jackets on Montbell. They have great gear. I'd go with the UL Down jacket or one of the Thermawraps (synthetic) http://www.montbell.us/products/list.ph ... 1&gen_cd=1 Keep in mind that other products, from Patagonia, Mountain Hardwear or whoever, will work too. You have a lot of choices here..

Gloves: A liner pair along with a medium weight pair will be good for February and early March. You can pick up liner gloves at a lot of clothing stores. I may not be clear here, so let me know if I need to clarify. Manzella makes good gloves or you can just get any mid-weight pair from REI. All will work fine. http://www.rei.com/c/mens-gloves-and-mittens


Food This can cost a fortune if you decide to buy a bunch of freeze dried or pre-packaged meals. It's much easier and cost effective to buy in bulk and make some of the stuff on your own. 1.75 pounds per day will be more than enough. This section is pretty brief so let me know what further (if any) questions you have.

Finally, you'll want to line your pack with a plastic compactor bag. Put your sleeping bag/quilt, clothes and whatever else you don't want wet in here. Cheap, lightweight and effective.

This guy has some suggestions and impressions regarding gear for long distance hiking, also worth a read for inspiration, perhaps:)

If you're going to look to someone else for outside info, I wouldn't look at Ken Ilgunas for top advice. Yes, he completed a long distance hike but I think you are better off looking at someone like Andrew Skurka or some of the folks at Backpackinglight.com who do this type of stuff professionally or for large portions of the year.

It is if course by no means "professional" advice. But then I wouldn't discount a thorough account by someone who did almost everything wrong and yet still managed to accomplish something like that:)

I see you're bringing Kindle. If you crank the font size down to blindness level you can read thousands of pages!... Music, ebook wise I used to stay out of civilization for months with one of these (runs for days on a AA, each disk held about 10 albums at high quality):
http://http://www.amazon.com/Sony-MZ-NH ... B0001M3MVG

Also, what Jacob said... Most of the best backpackers I know are very minimalist, using really basic, often ancient and improvised gear.

@jacob, well all my current equipment sucks besides the sleeping pad, various synthetic clothes, and arguably the sleeping bag and boots (they're both terrific in the winter, terrible for the summer, and overkill for fall/spring/thru-hiking). I am doing this kind of consumer style I guess, trading money for an easier and more pleasant hike. It's really not much money amortized over six months though, and I'll be living even cheaper than normal those months anyway.

@JohnnyH/henrik/jennypenny, thanks for the various tips

@simplex, found the blog post referencing that pdf. I like this Skurka guy's writing; I may get his book. He's even got some ERE tendencies, for example here's a quote about his personal life "I had learned that I didn’t need to earn much if I didn’t spend much". He also talks about staying frugal even after his business took off.

@theanimal, thanks again for another great post!

Glad to hear I can just order a few things and then return the ones that aren't my favorites.

So I'm trying to wrap my head around building a new stove every 8 days. Presumably I need a hole punch every 8 days. So do I have a hole punch in my pack now? Or do I like have a bounce box just for the hole punch? (I hadn't planned on doing a bounce box; I don't think there's anything else I need to bounce)

Unless I'm missing something obvious about how to keep making new stoves, I think my preference would be to build or buy a sturdier stove that could last the whole trip. Maybe something like this Caldera Cone System?

Another question... do you have any thoughts on the ULA OHM 2.0 (vs the ULA CDT you recommended)? For an extra 9.3oz or so I can get more legitimate weight transfer to my hips. Maybe it depends ultimately on my final baseweight, which I don't know yet.

I think to progress much further with clothes planning I'm going to have to wait until I get home from Asia, take stock of the various synthetic/fleece stuff I already have, and then head to REI. I think I may order that Ibex Hoodie though!

I'm feeling more confident every day with this stuff. It's amazing what you can get done when you can choose to spend a whole day researching if you want to. I've got a gear spreadsheet that's really coming together thanks to your help and a lot of outside research as well. (I'm liking post thru-hike youtube videos.)

Yes, most of this gear will last you a long time if you take good care of it. Some are very close to BIFL products.

About the stoves..I should have been more clear on this but the idea would be to make them in advance of the hike and ship them to yourself along the way. If you don't like that idea, the Caldera looks like it'd be good. Maybe slightly bulky but it'll work.

The ULA OHM looks good but you won't need as much weight on your hips having a smaller amount of weight. I'm guessing that you're baseweight will end up between 9-11 lbs. so the CDT should work fine (as long its not overloaded with weight.

And I forgot to mention this earlier but I picked the headlamp over the flashlight just so it frees up your hands. Your able to get more done if you're cooking, digging through your pack etc. if you have both hands free. Flashlight would work too though.

Researching is great..keep doing it if you like it! That's how I learned probably half of the stuff I know.

Why do you need a new stove every eight days? I have a few alcohol stoves and I've never had to replace them despite a quite a few uses (though not 6 months worth). I have a penny stove, a red bull can stove, and a cat can stove (don't like the cat can much). A friend has an aluminum beer can stove. They don't seem to be wearing at all.

I also have one of these http://www.cascadedesigns.com/msr/stove ... et/product but I like the alcohol stove better for ultralight, one person cooking.

Re stove - when on hikes I've have always used a trangia:

Reliable and a BIFL product (IMO)

http://www.trangia.se/english/5612.25_series_ul.html

Don't know if these can be bougt in the US - or if 30 oz for stove+pots are to much?

Ok I think I was wrong about switching up the stove..Honestly I have only been able to use that method a few times up til now but I could have sworn I read that advice on Skurka's site. I can't find where it is and he actually seems to say the opposite. It should work for a long time but you may have to replace it once or twice if something happens.

Ah yeah, I want to avoid the mail drop thing as much as possible. I'm terrible at logistics, don't want to inconvenience someone else to coordinate shipping them, don't want to depend on the postal service or have to think about being in a certain place on a certain day... and I like the idea of "everything I need is in my backpack".

I may DIY an alcohol stove for fun yet still buy the Caldera system because I couldn't possible construct such a cool integrated fuel-reducing windscreen thing -- or such a durable stove -- and it's only $30.

I'm surprised you're thinking of hiking the AT without maildrops. I haven't heard of anyone doing that (though I'm sure it's possible).

I expect it would be a lot more expensive (and more variable in terms of what you can find), buying camping supplies from shops right near the trail than going the maildrop route.

wizards wrote:Re stove - when on hikes I've have always used a trangia:

+1 for Trangia. I've used the Mini for a few years and it's very lightweight, durable and perfect for one person. Take care not to burn the rubber seal on the lid of the alcohol burner (use the flame adjuster to put out the fire and let it cool a little before putting the lid on).

@m741, you can get away without maildrops on the AT because you go through towns so frequently and the towns are so accustomed to thru-hikers. I won't need camping supplies as much as more oats and pasta and candy.

We're back in the US now. I'm happy to be back.

I've mentioned this before, but once traveling stopped being challenging or catalyzing much growth, basically only the downsides remained such as jetlag, timezone differences, uncomfortable beds, and difficulty establishing routines or friends.

Additionally traveling exacerbates an incompatibility between my girlfriend and myself: I want more alone time than she does. This is easy to balance in a stable location because she can spend time with friends and family to even things out. It's damn near impossible to balance for people who are slow to make friends and change locations frequently.

Since coming back we've spent a week recovering from jetlag and then a week in LA visiting my brother. Strangely enough LA has given me more to think about than the last few places we traveled to.

I'm staying in Manhattan Beach in a house worth almost $2 million owned by my brother's friend, who is my age and earns well into the six figures per year. I think of myself as someone who is capable of earning a significant income and amassing an amount of wealth that would be impressive even outside of ERE, but I could never really see the point in doing it.

There are three wealthy people that I've known long enough and intimately enough to watch how money affected their lives, and I don't think money has been very useful to any of them. (I'm going to ignore philanthropy and charity for this whole discussion.)

One is my crazy aunt, who despite having a real estate empire with waterfront property around the globe still spends her time scheming and building elaborate plans to get more money at any cost. She is the person who enacted a five year plan to change my grandmother's will after my grandmother became senile, rewriting my siblings and myself out of it, just to add another $75k to her pile. When I was younger I had a difficult time separating the good advice she would give on business matters like university or real estate from the bad advice she would give on things like life or relationships. When my girlfriend of a few years went to Brazil for six months my crazy aunt recommended I online date on the side. When my brother's wife decided to go to med school she recommended he immediately divorce her. Fueling her advice is a deep routed cynicism and belief in the worst of people, a belief that relationships invariably fail and people invariably do rotten stuff. Having wealth hasn't made her into a happy or well-functioning person, if anything the pursuit of it has only made her more deranged and despicable.

Another wealthy person I know well is my college friend, who did come from a successful family, but went on to be really successful after college. During college he was the center of the social circle, always wanting to be around other people and hangout for long periods of time. The thing that confused me most about his pursuit of wealth is it compromised the social interaction he gained so much from before. Not just the long hours working (strengthening bonds with people who at the end of the day are just employees or coworkers), but also growing accustomed to $50/entree meals instead of the $10/entree meals that others could afford. As his house got nicer and nicer it became harder and harder for others to feel comfortable there. I still remember when I tried to write something down on his kitchen table and he had to jump up and stop me because the table was made out of some kind of soft, expensive, high-end material that can't be written on! When I look at this friend I can't help but be reminded of the phrase "it's lonely at the top" and wonder if he's even really better off now that he's wealthy.

The third story is shorter: trust-fund since he turned 18; Harvard undergrad; naturally smart, clever, a quick wit and a great writer; who has done little with it. It took him six or seven years to graduate from Harvard undergrad. Since graduating he has lived on his trust fund and his wife's support, in all those years has managed to ghost write one book, and has done little else, mostly just play video games, watch TV, etc. Now he's a stay at home dad. It's not so much that he's lived a bad life, but instead that he could have done absolutely anything with the gifts he had, and I can't help but thinking maybe he would have if the trustfund had never been there.

So those are the three richest people I know personally, and all of them have done fuck all with their wealth. If anything I think you could make a compelling argument that they would have been better off without their money.

I should mention that I do know lots of people with a smaller but still significant amount of money that they use to spend time with friends/family or to pursue their dreams or just to stay at jobs they like, and I do think money is very useful to these people.

Anyway, the long point that I'm building towards is this: until I got to LA, I hadn't seen anyone with more than enough money actually build a better life for himself from the extra money.

So this guy's got a house in an extremely desirable location, a short barefoot walk to a beautiful beach, in a major city, near an airport. The house has extra bedrooms and bathrooms, but even more than that it has extra bicycles and wetsuits and surfboards and beach chairs. Like seriously there are wetsuits and surfboards that don't fit anyone who lives in the house, that are just there to encourage people to visit. They bought redundant pairs of their favorite bicycles just for guests. They're so open to visitors that they're downright excited for me to be here for two weeks, even though I'm tangentially connected to them (I'm the brother of their friend).

Strangely enough to me they haven't seemed to scale up their lifestyle much either. Their food is mostly from Costco, their wine bottles are $10 or even sometimes the two buck chuck from Trader Joe's. They occasionally eat frozen pizza for dinner, and their couch is big and comfy instead of expensive and fancy. They meet their friends at dive bars and mostly live the same life they'd life with 1/10th their current income. The extra income seems to legitimately go just to benefit the people around them. Their living room is massive yet welcoming. They're in the process of buying a house on a lake two hours away for weekend trips for their friends.

Basically before this trip I'd never seen someone get ridiculously wealthy and then use that extra wealth in a positive way. (Again, ignoring charity.) One of the reasons I was so open to FI/YMOYL/ERE is they didn't advocate acquiring more than "enough" and one reason I didn't want more than "enough" is that I'd only seen wealthy people become worse off as they became wealthier. It's been interesting seeing a wealthy person doing it right. I found a quote that kind of captures what he's doing: "If you are more fortunate than others, it's better to build a longer table than a taller fence."

I find it kind of funny that I went to the other side of the world in pursuit of new cultures and ideas about how to live, and yet my trip to visit my brother after I was done has given me just as much to think about.