Trump - Clown Genius

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Spartan_Warrior
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

Hah, I imagine this is business as usual plus cameras, but it frustrates me to no end that all the live streams and cameras still seem to make no difference. I guess the mainstream media's grip is too tight. Or, the apathy and/or cognitive dissonance of the people is too strong.
My only surprise is how well Sanders is doing, running against the machine.
This is what really gives me the political blue-balls. If he had been summarily crushed at the outset, I would've never gotten my hopes up to begin with. Instead he's done just well enough to stoke my hopes that change is still possible and, thus, forced me further away from comfortable, cynical apathy.

As I've alluded to before, I'm sure the establishment noticed this, too, and learned its lesson. Which is why my cynical-apathy side doubts there will be another Bernie Sanders--certainly not allowed to get this far.

Chad
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Chad »

Interesting parallels between this election and a very old one:

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles ... on-of-1816

It will be interesting to see if this election destroys one of the parties, which is the only real option to your desire to do something SW.

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GandK
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by GandK »

[quote="Chad"]Interesting parallels between this election and a very old one:

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles ... on-of-1816
[/quote]

I think it has way more in common with the even older Andrew Jackson - JQ Adams election. There, too, you had a hot-headed, politically incorrect/ignorant, "shoot first" everyman running against a member of the uber experienced, uber-educated political elite. Jackson [i]was[/i] Trump, from deal making to saying stupid sh!t to reporters... all the way down to "let's round up the brown people and ship them out." And JQA was a former Secretary of State and Senator (among other offices) who was notably cold and distant. The election split along educated Northeastern/uneducated Midwestern lines, and as there were more of the latter voting by then, Jackson won.

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jennypenny
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by jennypenny »

I think it's so funny that all the talk at first was about a contested Republican convention, and now it looks like the Democratic one might have the best fireworks. Too bad it's too late to get press credentials. I thought about it a few months ago, but figured it would be a snooze-fest. I should have applied anyway. Live and learn.

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

Article about the Nevada convention (and the Goebbels-level media spin on what happened) that also touches on how the media narrows the debate: http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/3 ... -re-losing

Here's an excellent 8 min video with footage explaining what happened and why it matters, whether you support Sanders or not: https://youtu.be/tVa4G32M7Bc

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

Fox News poll yesterday showed Trump beating Clinton by 3 points; while Bernie still beats Trump by 4 points. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/05 ... dates.html

Latest Rasmussen poll today shows Trump beating Clinton by 5 points: http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_ ... ouse_watch

Either the DNC pulls its head out of its ass and nominates Bernie to crush in the general, or it looks like President Trump. At least it won't be Hillary?

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

jennypenny wrote:I think it's so funny that all the talk at first was about a contested Republican convention, and now it looks like the Democratic one might have the best fireworks. Too bad it's too late to get press credentials. I thought about it a few months ago, but figured it would be a snooze-fest. I should have applied anyway. Live and learn.
There might be plenty of news to cover from outside the convention as well...

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/pol ... 72561.html

Sounds like they're ramping up security.

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GandK
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by GandK »

I... yeah. It's about that bad.

Obit: Woman chose death over picking between Trump, Clinton
The obituary published by the Richmond Times-Dispatch and on a funeral home’s website reads, “Faced with the prospect of voting for either Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton, Mary Anne Noland of Richmond chose, instead, to pass into the eternal love of God.”

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

^ LOL.

BTW, I gotta apologize for my harsh critiques of Scott Adams. My knee-jerk reaction was to group him in with the rest of the media figures who (falsely) legitimized Trump, and maybe that is partly true, even if only inadvertently. But as resignation sets in, I'm starting to see Adams was more or less where I am now--merely acknowledging an ugly reality.

(I probably still won't go out of my way to look at Dilbert cartoons, but that's partly because I no longer check Yahoo for "news".)

Riggerjack
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Riggerjack »

S_W, try to remember the origin of the word politics. Poly, meaning many; and ticks, meaning blood sucking parasites*.

But seriously, if Bernie goes to Washington, it still will have almost no effect on your life. Go back to Obama's primary speaches, and see what you recognize. And Obama had far more support than Bernie ever will.

* This, I believe, was a Terry Pratchett quote. It's been years, so I can only say with certainty that it's far too witty to have originated with me.

enigmaT120
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by enigmaT120 »

It almost sounds more like one of Mark Twain's, or at least one that would get attributed to him.

I guess I would hope for a Trump presidency to be entertaining, and not too bad for the environment. Will I get at least one of them?

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Ego
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Ego »

Dunning ala Dunning-Kruger on Trump
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/ ... ect-213904

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

@Riggerjack: I've heard that before. I will fully admit I fell for Obama in 2008. By 2012, I was no longer fooled. 2008 is not 2016, and Obama was no Bernie. Obama was simply the smoother-talking, non-Clinton-flavored corporate puppet who also happened to pay lip-service to the ideals for which Bernie has actually fought for 50 years. Hillary is a much closer comparison to Obama.

How much I personally will be affected by the presidency and government is another matter. Granted, I'm well-insulated against political shenanigans, like many here, but no one is fully immune to war, economic collapse, and environmental devastation.

@EnigmaT120: I have high hopes that a Trump presidency will be entertaining. Late night TV should be golden for those few years as it was with Bush. I sincerely doubt President Trump would be good for the environment, but perhaps it would not be as bad as the Fracking Queen...? Dunno.

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Ego
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Ego »

ffj wrote:If you want to take down Trump then you hammer him on the issues and his lack of details. Chris Wallace does a good job of this. .....

Stop calling people stupid for liking the guy; it makes people absolutely disregard any information they deem as biased, and there is a shit-ton of it out there.
Brings to mind one of my favorite quotes:

“If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn’t value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?”

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

@FFJ: "I can't imagine a better way to lose an election than to continually call a large portion of the population stupid, ignore any and all transgressions of the favored candidate, even though all of these "stupid" people have access to alternative news sources, and to downplay any legitimate concerns Americans may have by couching those concerns amid accusations of racism, islamophobia, etc. The Democrats and the media have overplayed their hand, and they are going to pay for the arrogance they have displayed this fall."

This rings close to home since if you replace the words "racism" and "islamophobia" with "sexism" and "too idealistic", this pretty much describes to a tee how Clinton, the DNC, and the DNC's propaganda arms carried out her primary campaign. I can tell you exactly how inclined I am to vote for her as a result.

If that's all she's got for the general, well... those poll numbers will keep sliding, and I can only laugh.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

The system didn't just allow for what transpired, it provisioned for it. Debbie Wasserman Schultz, co-chair of Clinton's 2008 campaign, didn't appoint herself to the DNC head. Obama did, presumably because the position was part of the deal, much like Clinton's SoS appointment, meant to firm up her coronation in 2016 in exchange for supporting him in 2008.

jacob
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by jacob »

An important question would be whether politicians in a representative democracy are supposed to represent the people ... or they are supposed to represent the interests of the people. Ultimately, politicians are supposed to be the cream of the crop and thus they can never truly represent the people, so the idea in a representative democracy is that politicians represent the interests of the people.

However, the political establishment has failed to do the latter for quite some time now. People have switched from voting for the shirt-color they believe in to voting against the shirt-colors they don't believe in. Hence, the attempt with the Tea Party during last election. And the current attempt with Trump. And random attempts of writing in hamsters, dogs, and other pets on ballots.

The normal political election strategy seems to be to make empty promises that resonate with certain segments of the voters; then once elected, renege on those promises and go back to pushing through unread legislation that was written by lobbyists. This means a politician has one well-defined target and they try to pander to that specific target.

Trump's strategy is much more refined! He's essentially running A/B testing (similar to how Tim Ferris optimized the title for the 4HWW) trying out different statements that might even contradict themselves within the very same interview and if not then revert on a dime when public opinion (sales) suggest that the other/contradicting statement sells better. (I know someone who works as a Republican lobbyist and apparently they are just as confused as how to handle this new media-consumerist approach to getting elected as the other old-school politicians. They literally do not know how to phrase legislation for the incoherent/shifting policy that Trump promotes.)

Obviously facts mean nothing. Trump has only 8% of statements that can be qualified as mostly true or better (true); conversely 76% of his statements are mostly false or worse. In contrast the numbers for old-school politicians like Hillary (50%/30%), Sanders (50%/30%), and Obama (48%/26%) are so different from Trump's that they're a difference in kind rather than a difference in mere degree. Clearly Trump and his [continued] supporters don't care about facts(*). Whereas old-school politicians care ... or at least pretend to half the time or so.

(*) I think this is where Dunning-Kruger enters to provide some nuance. It's not really that Trump supporters (I'm speaking in general, present company excluded, etc.) don't care about facts. In fact, at least based on anecdotal evidence (I'm thinking of friends and family ... I observe and mostly shut up), it seems they care greatly about facts because according to them: "they've done their research". It's just that they are too ignorant to realize that spending 5 minutes googling or hitting the share button for a facebook meme does not constitute sufficient research to establish an informed opinion. I mean, we're talking several Wheaton levels, so I've learned that just shutting up is a far better strategy when it comes to politics.

Seriously, from the perspective of a somewhat neutral (I try hard) grey position (I can't vote anyway, permanent resident, not convicted felon :-P ), the gap between "confidence of position" and "informed position" is particularly large for Trump supporters.

And yes ... calling people stupid doesn't work. These days, it's a fairly rare individual who will---on being told so---will proceed to question themselves instead of others. Calling people stupid is not going to get anyone elected ... however, it may just provide some understanding for those who care more about that. Oh yeah, it also unifies your own shirt color.

Actually, I also know a few Trump supporters who are looking forward to the trading opportunities that such unpredictable policies might provide. Heck, he's even talking about abolishing Dodd-Frank. How can anyone who profits from market volatility resist that kind of politics?

Personally, I blame widespread ignorance/disinterest and post modernism ... Colbert got it! (We need someone in popular media who is to Trump as Colbert was to Bush ... but of course that's not going to change the minds of the people who need it most. Despite how entertaining this might be (on late night TV), it will just be even more polarizing.)
Truthiness is tearing apart our country, and I don't mean the argument over who came up with the word…

It used to be, everyone was entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts. But that's not the case anymore. Facts matter not at all. Perception is everything. It's certainty. People love the President [George W. Bush] because he's certain of his choices as a leader, even if the facts that back him up don't seem to exist. It's the fact that he's certain that is very appealing to a certain section of the country. I really feel a dichotomy in the American populace. What is important? What you want to be true, or what is true?…

Truthiness is 'What I say is right, and [nothing] anyone else says could possibly be true.' It's not only that I feel it to be true, but that I feel it to be true. There's not only an emotional quality, but there's a selfish quality.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truthiness

jacob
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by jacob »

Perhaps it's time to shift the focus to the following question:

* Does Dunning Kruger apply to Trump himself? Does he know as little about the world of politics as he appears to be (being factually wrong more than 90% of the time) or is he just pandering to his demographics? (Is he incompetent or evil?)
* If incompetent, can he learn fast enough?
* Given that there's no Trump-party in congress nor in the senate, how will politics work given a president that seems less aligned with either party than they are with each other? The epitome of lame duckiness?

Riggerjack
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Riggerjack »

. * Given that there's no Trump-party in congress nor in the senate, how will politics work given a president that seems less aligned with either party than they are with each other? The epitome of lame duckiness?
This is what I expect. The same from Sanders. It's just that I have a strong aversion to Trump, and have since the 90's. But, as much as I personally dislike Trump, I think he will do less damage than Hillary. Just because he will face obstruction on every thing he tries.

BRUTE
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by BRUTE »

brute challenges the following of jacob's assumptions:
- the system is supposed/was designed to work in a certain way
- it used to work in that way
- that way is somehow good for someone (or the "greater good")

jacob's laments feel to brute like a combination of technocrat/romantic longing, for a(n imagined) time when "the system worked", people cared about facts, leaders were smart, and unicorns existed.

brute suggest the following:
- the system was not designed, but evolved without any specific goals into its current form
- at no point in time was the system in any way benevolent or inherently good
- leaders were never smart or knew facts or were honest
- followers were never informed or smart
- there was no time when smart followers researched all the important information, and subsequently voted for the qualified candidate to use science and facts to make the world a better place, this is merely a fantasy

brute is not suggesting that "now is the best time ever" in regards to politics, but rather that "there wasn't a time, and it's hard to imagine a time", in which politics did/would "work" in any sense.

brute believes that politics cannot possibly "work" because it is by definition the attempt to solve a problem that cannot be solved, which is exactly why "politics" is invoked as a last resort.

if 5 humans cannot agree on which restaurant to go to for dinner, "politics" would mean using a strategy such as voting, compromise, dictatorship, or whatever to cut the gordian knot. but any "solution" that can possibly be found using politics does not really "work" in the sense that the situation is solved. it merely means choosing any one solution that could've been chosen before, but wasn't, because it was unsatisfactory.

in brute's admittedly pretty negative view of humanity, politics is little more than using a hammer to solve a puzzle that can't be solved. using the hammer still doesn't solve anything, but it does make the situation go away. proponents of politics will claim this means progress. brute disagrees.

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