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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:52 pm
by Hristo Botev
jacob wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:43 pm
This way the only problem is different taxes on different wellheads due to the failure of global coordination. (Same problem as today where we export polluting industries to low-regulation regions and then pride ourselves on how "green" we are locally.)
You'd have to couple the carbon tax* with tariffs, no?
*As a conservative I'm going with carbon "fee," on the assumption that the monies collected won't go to government coffers.
Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:58 pm
by 7Wannabe5
Right. Taxing at the source makes fossil fuels more expensive for everyone including the poor. Labeling just makes them more expensive for the virtuous, but less expensive for the not virtuous or too poor to fret. IOW, it would be more efficient to simply transfer wealth.
Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:03 pm
by Hristo Botev
My understanding is that's where the carbon dividend comes in. It'd be a flat dividend, and as the wealthy are the bigger consumers, the dividend wouldn't be sufficient to cover the increased costs from the carbon fees. But as the poorer generally consume less, it'd be a net positive for them. So it is in a way a wealth transfer. The wealthy would transfer their wealth to the poor by virtue of the fact that the wealthy are more taxing on the environment.
Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:11 pm
by 7Wannabe5
Yup, but you have to remember that less than 1 Jacob applies to everyone, but, for instance, poverty level in the U.S. is almost 2 Jacobs. It could be argued that, for instance, some portion of the depreciation of your law school education is being applied to all of your domestic production ( such as sourdough bread) and that is why you could have a betterclife on just 1Jacob than some other human could have on 2 Jacobs.
But I wouldn’t serious make that argument because I am not a communist or in favor of Harrison Bergeron type solutions.
Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:41 pm
by Hristo Botev
No doubt. But you've got draw the line somewhere. Keep it simple; we're over-complicating this. We're emitting too much CO2. So how do we curb those emissions in the most effective, least economically destructive, and most equitable manner? No one has yet proposed anything superior to a carbon tax/fee with dividend scheme, coupled with carbon tariffs. I'm happy to hope for a techno-optimistic solution, but I think we should stop holding our breath waiting for one. Especially if that techno-optimistic solution is something like releasing sulphur dioxide into the atmosphere--forever.
Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:04 pm
by 7Wannabe5
There is already research funded by the department of defense to be able to detect on the down low attempts at high tech solutions like sulphur dioxide release. Australia is experimenting with making clouds shinier so that they reflect more sunlight back out of the atmosphere. That’s pretty safe but of limited use.
My take is that it doesn’t matter whether you are pessimistic or optimistic, we’ve let it go too long now, and we do have technology, so it probably will be used in some last ditch effort eventually once the shit is even more seriously hitting the fan. I mean, do you think Bangladesh is just going to be like “Okay, here we go completely under water, no problem.”
Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:20 pm
by Hristo Botev
Just saw the pick for Kerry as "Climate Czar." Seems like this signals the incoming administration is going to make CC a priority. The New Deal-like Biden CC plan certainly scares me (
https://joebiden.com/clean-energy/), as it looks to be the "using CC as a Trojan Horse to further consolidate power at the federal level" that conservatives fear. But, hell, it was inevitable. And maybe it'll help. Lots and lots of the fed government picking winners and losers in Biden's plan; and lots of new regulations, and of course lots and lots and lots of spending taxpayer dollars.
Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:24 pm
by 7Wannabe5
I think paying people to build greener infrastructure is a good segue to UBI. Although, of course, it is kind of to little and too much, too late.
Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:28 pm
by Alphaville
i’d rather give my taxes to a solar or insulation installer than to lord bezos
Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:30 pm
by Hristo Botev
It's going to be one and the same.
Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:49 pm
by Alphaville
objection, calls for speculation?
Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:11 pm
by Hristo Botev
Increased complexity only benefits those with the resources to navigate the complexities.
I'm imagining some CC-focused entrepreneurial do-gooder deciding to follow Rob Greenfield's advice and start a for-profit bicycle-powered neighborhood composting business, only to find that she can't do it because our Biden CC plan has put into place so many regulations for "green" businesses that our little local entrepreneur doesn't have a chance. But, Bezos can do it with his drones, which will be powered by his Blue Origin space-based solar panels (
https://qz.com/1615871/jeff-bezos-says- ... the-earth/).
Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:17 pm
by Alphaville
i see this as a big boon to unionized labor not to churners of cheap commodities.
i know we have a generational tendence towards “argumentum ad paranoia” (a subset of appeal to emotion) but until we have robots performing skilled labor i don’t see it. leave that for the movies (made by union labor).
Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:21 pm
by 7Wannabe5
Seems like a good opportunity for an early retired lawyer to provide assistance to small green businesses
Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:53 pm
by Alphaville
7Wannabe5 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:21 pm
Seems like a good opportunity for an early retired lawyer to provide assistance to small green businesses
or to start/buy a green business franchise ...
https://www.franchisedirect.com/home-se ... lar-grids/
https://www.franchisedirect.com/home-se ... nsulation/
https://www.franchisedirect.com/home-se ... irect-usa/
etc
Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:24 pm
by Campitor
i see this as a big boon to unionized labor not to churners of cheap commodities.
I don't see that happening. The open border policy and outsourcing/automation of work will not be union friendly other than for government contracts that require US based labor. And those automated delivery fleets will one day become a reality.
Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:43 pm
by Alphaville
Campitor wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:24 pm
i see this as a big boon to unionized l ... mmodities.
I don't see that happening. The open border policy and outsourcing/automation of work will not be union friendly other than for government contracts that require US based labor. And those automated delivery fleets will one day become a reality.
huh? automatic delivery fleets are going to build windmills, retrofit buildings, rig solar panels, expand rural broadband?
not in this generation. maybe 40 years from now? after they finally perfect the roomba.
meanwhile the biden plan states the money will go to union jobs:
We need millions of construction, skilled trades, and engineering workers to build a new American infrastructure and clean energy economy. These jobs will create pathways for young people and for older workers shifting to new professions, and for people from all backgrounds and all communities. Their work will improve air quality for our children, increase the comfort of our homes, and make our businesses more competitive. The investments will make sure the communities who have suffered the most from pollution are first to benefit — including low-income rural and urban communities, communities of color, and Native communities. And, Biden’s plan will empower workers to organize unions and bargain collectively with their employers as they rebuild the middle class and a more sustainable future. Biden will make a $2 trillion accelerated investment, with a plan to deploy those resources over his first term, setting us on an irreversible course to meet the ambitious climate progress that science demands.
https://joebiden.com/clean-energy/#
sure, there are unintended consequences to every policy and legislation, but unions are a major force in the democratic party and won’t write the laws against themselves.
mitch might sabotage on behalf of his donors, but that would be a different story.
and again, let’s not argue from paranoia. just because something sounds dystopian, it doesn’t follow that it’s necessarily true.
this is dystopia already anyway...
Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:09 pm
by Campitor
Alphaville wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:43 pm
huh? automatic delivery fleets are going to build windmills, retrofit buildings, rig solar panels?
not in this generation. maybe 40 years from now?
meanwhile the biden plan states the money will go to union jobs:
sure, there are unintended consequences to every policy and legislation, but unions are a major force in the democratic party and won’t write this against themselves.
mitch might sabotage on behalf of his donors, but that’s a different story.
and again, let’ not argue from paranoia. just because something sounds dystopian, it doesn’t follow that it’s true.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/share ... 2020-01-22
https://theintercept.com/2020/01/31/joe ... on-lawyers
Unions have been in decline for a while now despite all the presidential promises of increasing unions. And any plan Biden wants to make will need to pass the house/senate. It's not going to be suddenly sunshine and rainbows for unions under Biden similar to how it wasn't under Clinton and Obama. Maybe I'm wrong. We'll see how that needle moves in the next 4 to 8 years.
Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:13 pm
by Alphaville
“we’ll see how that needle moves” is right. first we’ll need the infrastructure legislation of course.
it might come to nothing if mitch won’t play. so it’s quite a long shot. his wife’s family has massive shipping interests though, so throwing in some port upgrades might just add incentive ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ (port upgrades *does* mean robots btw. more speed and less theft. unions oppose them.)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foremost_Group
https://fortune.com/2018/01/30/port-aut ... ner-ships/
here’s to congress getting back into the business of horse trading and sausage making. not sure if it’s possible, but one can hope.
Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?
Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:27 pm
by 7Wannabe5
The darkness of ecological awareness is the darkness of noir, which is a strange loop: the detective is a criminal. In a strong version of noir the narrator is implicated in the story: two levels which normally don’t cross, that some believe structurally can’t cross. We civilized people we Mesopotamians, are the narrators of our destiny. Ecological awareness is that moment at which these narrators find out that they are the tragic criminal.
- “ Dark Ecology: For a Logic of Future Coexistence” - Timothy Morton