Early Retirement Extreme Forums

To me, whether the way we work biologically can be called "free will" or not (and according to whose definition of free will) doesn't matter. What matters is understanding the facts: how profoundly determined we and everyone else is, and drawing the relevant conclusions:

- remember that "there but for the grace of god go I" - don't be a judgmental piece of shit, don't be a prideful/arrogant piece of shit that thinks themselves superior, in fact dispense with merit and blame to the greatest extent you're able, don't punish people for shit that's out of their control just because punishing someone feels good, but do protect yourself from them as necessary, either by removing them or yourself,

- dispense rewards only instrumentally,

- cut yourself some slack. You can't hate yourself out of having a biology. You can't wish away the limitations of that biology either. Educate yourself on what you can and what you can't do, and what is and isn't possible. God give me the strength yaddah yaddah and the wisdom to know the difference

Not a coincidence that god keeps sneaking in here. Christianity arrives here in terms of attitudinal and behavioral recommendations (at least the non-insane kind), buddhism (at least the pop-buddhism popularized in the west im familiar with) arrives here in terms of attitudinal and behavioral recommendations, science arrives here in terms of attitudinal and behavioral recommendations. Don't be a piece of shit and accept that you can't wish reality away. Can or can't that reality be termed "free will" ultimately doesn't matter.

@ertyu:

Yes, but I think that the point Suo was trying to make was that the tendency to continue to be a judgmental piece of shit in light of evidence offered that we are profoundly determined is ALSO profoundly determined. IOW, there's a cascade akin to "Be tolerant." -> "Be tolerant of those who are intolerant." -> "Be tolerant of those who are intolerant of those who are intolerant." ending with nobody left with a scrap of shit to be assigned to them.

OTOH, I think the focus on that which is instrumental is key, because ultimately most resource efficient solution. For example, if you choose to punish prisoners by not letting them have television, then you might have to spend a lot more money on guards dealing with the prisoner's attempts to entertain themselves, which you may have to also weigh against weakening deterence, etc. etc. Eventually it comes down to how much you are willing to pay for the pleasure of vengeance/retribution vs simply keeping the streets safer.

Defending any consideration of an ethical dimension to personhood in a materialist universe is impossible. It has nothing to do with determinism. I probably fall under the category of a determinist in some respect. The question is who/what is the determining things. Saying "you shouldn't be a piece of shit" as a materialist is just an ad hoc expression of the golden rule. It has no metaphysical defense, but keeps people from decapitating babies when they disagree with one another. Well, at least disagreements on the internet.

Henry wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 24, 2023 5:23 pm

With regard to animals, I do not believe they have free will but I do believe that any creature, great or fucking small, who purposely shits on my walkway should have their anal cavity plugged in order that they choke to death on their own excrement and then dragged throughout the animal kingdom in order to teach a lesson to all animals who find targeted defecation a source of entertainment. I guess I'm Medieval that way too.

After scraping off months of pigeon excrement from my balcony I am minded to agree.