@ Maus Mmmm, boar. Yeah, I'm hoping to bag more than the 2-4 deer allowed by NYS by befriending an orchard owner or two, to get "population control" tags or whatever they're called. I'm thinking about documenting it on NYChunter.com, but then again I think about a lot of things. For instance, to your point, I may be getting ahead of myself with my assumptions about how many deer I will get, given my dearth of experience--NYC still hasn't even sent me my gun permit, so I'm somewhat running behind! I still have to:
* buy a rifle
* go the range several times to improve my aim
* get a hunting permit
* hunting season starts in ~ 8 weeks!
If you want to read Nourishing Traditions on my Kindle account via your smartphone/computer/Kindle, let me know and I'll give you my password for a few weeks. Find my email here.
Paleo dieters. I read a blurb on low-carb diets based on animal protein, from the journal Annals of Internal Medicine: http://www.annals.org/content/153/5/289.abstract
That's the abstract; membership only on the full-text (I don't have membership).
Comments? Concurrence, dissent?
@ Steve It's unusual to find such studies that distinguish between factory-farmed meat and pastured meat. There's a world of difference in their health effects. Presumably these high-vegetable/low-carb diets were super high-protein, because if they were using vegetable oils (anything besides rapeseed/olive/palm oil) as a significant source of fat, other studies point to that they would have been dropping like flies.
The Taubes and Fallon books (Good Calories, Bad Calories & Nourishing Traditions) are rife with proof of the above.
@NYC,
"...early cultures around the world independently came to these practices of soaking, fermenting and grinding, so it's unlikely to be superstition, and very likely to be health-bestowing."
Why does this make it likely to be health-bestowing? Didn't several early cultures independently come to practice things like smoking too?
@ Steve and anyone else: Way complicated deconstruction of the study you referenced, with a pro-paleo conclusion.
@ Mo -- touché. the way i laid that out is not too convincing. the point is that various cultures stumbled upon grinding and fermentation as a way to get more nutrition out of their food. this fact lends itself to the conclusion that other groups which didn't adapt neolithic foods (grains) in this manner may have fallen out of the gene pool. the health-bestowing part of it is something we know through nutritional science and anthropological research by folks such as Weston Price.
Thanks for the link to the "deconstruction." My confidence in paleo has been restored. Tonight I will celebrate with a big hunk of grilled flank steak and a bunch of steamed spinach.
@ Maus -- My pleasure. A paleo tip: Sauté the spinach in copious coconut oil/lard/tallow/butter instead of steaming it; you need your fat, and it will taste WAY better. Also, FYI kale has much lower anti-nutrient content (affects bioavailability of nutrients) than spinach.
As far as I can tell, one aspect of choosing to be vegan or vegetarian that hasn't been explored in this topic is concern for the lives of the animals. Whether an animal is free-range or not, it's hard to deny that once we sell something they produce (whether it's meat, eggs, or milk) they become a product rather than just a living creature with their own interests, feelings, etc. I think it's a personal choice and only really talk about my choices when people ask me about them but I felt I had to make an exception here since this viewpoint seemed to be underrepresented.
Vegans/vegetarians are sometimes portrayed as people who deny themselves pleasure. I guess you could draw a parallel here to how people who pursue ERE are sometimes viewed. I ate meat until I was 16 mainly because it was what everyone did and it was easy. From the time I made the connection that meat=dead animal I felt it was wrong but I continued to eat it. I guess 16 was the age where I was grown-up enough to strike out on my own based on my values. It was difficult; perhaps not surprisingly, the hardest part wasn't giving up eating meat (the cravings subsided after a month or two and were replaced with cravings for vegetarian foods) it was dealing with what other people thought. They thought I'd get sick (I didn't), not eat enough (I eat plenty), etc. Going veg wasn't deprivation for me--it was finally alligning that part of my life with my beliefs and it felt awesome! Like, really, really awesome! Similarly, when you pursue ERE people think your lack of a TV, car, or fancy clothes equals deprivation. Of course, I'm preaching to the choir here, but for some people, not having these things feels great too.
p.s. I should mention that I'm a bit of a hypocrite; if I lived my ideals 100% then I'd be vegan, not vegetarian. So far the moderation of the vegetarian lifestyle has worked better for me but I'm slowly minimizing my use of animal products.
@runeat I see your point about the parallels between veg. and ERE. One of the main things that appeals to me about ERE is "being the change you want to see in the world," and that's actually how I view my choice to support sustainable farming and agriculture, as well as humane animal husbandry.
I think "meat=dead animal=wrong" is not as cut and dried as one might think, especially in the context of hunting: Prey animals in the wild--I'm thinking of deer in particular--hardly ever die of old age; rather they die of either starvation or non-human predators--in other words, eaten alive. A skilled hunter can end a deer's life in a split-second, I dare say close to painlessly, which is ≥ humane than a (sadly often less-than-lethal) bolt in the brain; hunting doe also makes it more likely that their children will survive!
Here is another raging debate on roughly our topic.
@Zev: Thanks for the links; I don't know much about the Paleo diet and it's interesting to read about it. There are a lot of compelling arguments on that site. I agree that a bullet in the brain is a pretty humane form of slaughter and there is certainly a major deer overpopulation problem. My friend who lives about an hour north of NYC basically has to barricade her garden to save any of its produce for herself, and there are lots of car accidents up there caused by deers. If she didn't live in such a residential neighborhood she'd probably invite you to hunt in her yard, LOL.
If eating meat is important to you then like you said, hunting your own deer is likely the most humane, ecologically-friendly, responsible option available. For me, meat isn't important, and I doubt I'd be able to pull the trigger. But like I said before, I think diet is a personal decision and what works for one person often doesn't work for another person. I know some people feel sluggish or weak on a vegetarian diet and I wouldn't suggest to them that they stay on it if that was the case. I care for animals but human health comes first.
Everything that lives also dies. Eating invariably involves killing. There is much evidence plants are intelligent.
The people I buy my eggs, milk and meat from have tremendous respect for the animals.
@ jacob She fed them grains and kept them in cages--this is basically a DIY factory farm; not the healthiest meat (maybe not especially humane either!).
I just gave our friend in Mississippi a paleo starter kit of info.
Has anyone read "The Vegetarian Myth"? For vegan/vegetarians/anyone who doesn't know where your food comes from it is an excellent read. The basic premise is this:
1.) The author was a stoic vegan for years
2.) She got seriously ill being a vegan, but continued being a vegan because she loved animals.
3.) She tried to grow her own food and found out that in order to nourish the land she was growing her food on in a natural way, she needed animals.
I think that a lot of people, people who eat paleo and those who don't think that it just shows up on their plate. Those beans and rice you're eating? Although cheap and vegan, in order to get this, animals had to die as well.....land is plowed and cleared (think of all the habitat that's destroyed, or with rice, generally flooded after planting
- The thing with eating meat that has been pastured vs. grain-fed is that the cattle build topsoil up, compared to the massive amounts of soil that have been lost in conventional farming.
I think that people have to take more interest in what they're eating and know the impact that there food has on their environment, whether it's vegan or meat.
I just got done reading Zev's post to Jasonmississippi... and wow! The was probably the best action plan summary for a diet I've ever read.
Do any of the paleos here have an opinion about raw meat or tried it for a period of time? From a minimalist perspective this seems as simple as it gets. No cooking, just eat it as its slaughtered.
Also, is it possible that our digestive systems are somewhat evolved from our paleolithic ancestors to the point where 1. our bodies can't take full advantage of the foods they ate and 2. we are sort of adapted for an agrarian diet (though not fully hence diabetes blah blah blah)?
My problem with the paleo diet and all protein oriented diets - India, China, Japan. How are they so skinny yet eat boat loads of sticky rice and naan constantly?
Also, I love some of the history about Kellogs and macro-nutrient breakdown and how protein vs carbs has been a fabricated debate ongoing for about 120 years now. The more we focus on macro-nutrients and "food science" the worse our health seems to get.
For instance, to your point, I may be getting ahead of myself with my assumptions about how many deer I will get, given my dearth of experience--NYC still hasn't even sent me my gun permit, so I'm somewhat running behind! I still have to: