AxelHeyst wrote: ↑Mon Jun 03, 2024 8:08 pm
I'm really digging your thought processes around permaculture. I think it makes total sense to use it as a north star from the beginning to guide your thinking wrt your projects. I guess that's how I'd like to approach it as well but I haven't articulated it as well as you have, so ty! Looking forward to joining in on the permaculture discussions round here.
@AH - Well, thank you! I feel like I'm usually a bit heavy on the stream of consciousness/let-er-rip/lack patience to write well sort of writing, so if you feel like I articulated something well, I'll glady say thank you!
mountainFrugal wrote: ↑Mon Jun 03, 2024 8:17 pm
This is one ERE activity that has so many positive things going for it because it hits so many forms of capital. If you wanted to commit to it, you could have a standing date or two per month where you have folks over and cook for them.
@MF - Also a good idea. I guess that is a lead by example / be the change you want to see sort of move. I like it. Related, my ex-wife and I used to host some semi open-house "Soup Nights" at our house which was a nice way to have some regular community stuff going on. I keep thinking about doing something similar wherever I am...just haven't done it. The Goldstream might be the place!
grundomatic wrote: ↑Mon Jun 03, 2024 9:43 pm
Don't forget Brad Lancaster when it comes to permaculture. He's more known as the the water harvesting guy, but it's all based on permaculture principles. There's a section in his book about building "wind berms" for cold, snowy places. He has a youtube channel if you prefer that.
@grundomatic - great, thanks for the tip. Looks like he has some great content, like "
Water plants for free with your dirty laundry—multi-drain pipes for laundry greywater harvesting" which has just influenced my design for my property in AK. I'll build a combo outhouse/shower-shed/laundy-shed that is uphill from the gardens so I can harvest the graywater! (@theanimal - lookin at you and your new-to-you washing machine! Geez, we could ERE2 this [
] - put your washing machine at my place and run the pipes downhill to your property!)
Western Red Cedar wrote: ↑Mon Jun 03, 2024 11:42 pm
You can check out the Happen Films videos and podcasts for more information on Permaculture. Their work primarily centers on permaculture and they produce high-quality films with some of the leading practitioners:
https://happenfilms.com
In terms of initial steps on approaching permaculture theory and practice, I'd encourage you to try to connect with some people in Alaska (or Guatemala) who are already doing what you want to do. They may save you hundreds of hours of time with a few short conversations. I'm guessing a well-designed system in Alaska will look quite different than one in an arid climate, or Central America, or NZ, etc...
Your neighbors will be a wealth of knowledge.
@WRC - awesome. Will do. Thank you.
Totally agree about connecting with local people who know something... will be a great efficiency improvement. Ive been looking in permies and another place or two for Alaska posts/people. Not a ton of success so far. That said, @theanimals will be my neighbors, so they already know a bunch! He's already been helpful in providing local/tailored perspective on the the effectiveness of swales in that climate etc.
7Wannabe5 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 1:37 pm
From my perspective, the essential problem with giving a straight-forward answer to this question is that those of us who are somewhat experienced with conventional backyard gardening and permaculture understand that they very first questions you will ask yourself towards designing a conventional backyard garden vs a permaculture project may vary considerably. For example, a very good common-sense first step towards designing a productive backyard garden would be to consider what you and your household already like to eat and in what quantity, because a common beginner mistake is to plant too much of what you don't really like to eat all that much and/or have no ability or intention to process and store beyond harvest.
OTOH, from a permaculture perspective you might start with observing or cataloguing what edibles already grow (or roam) on your property without regard to the extent to which they are already included in your preferred diet. For example, I recently had the most interesting conversation with an expert on primitive crafts in my region, and he told me that the early Jesuit missionaries were often disturbed to find small animal bones in the maple sugar they acquired from the Native Americans, and they discovered that this was due to the fact that they didn't want to waste the resources required in the process of boiling down the sap, so they would also boil small animals in the sugary liquid.
We are all spoiled rotten 21st century consumers who fully expect to walk into the corner gas station and be able to purchase produce that Marie Antoinette couldn't grow in her hothouses. I am zero percent a purist, so I think there is nothing that is verboten or "doesn't belong" on a permaculture project. For instance, if I wanted to reproduce a 1950s American ornamental flower carpet bed of Hybrid Giant Zinnias spelling out "7Wannabe5 Rocks !" within the confines of my permaculture project, I would definitely do it and simply label the Yield = Maximized Whimsy. However, as Sepp Holzer, the sole resident of Level 10 in Wheaton Permaculture Table most famously said:
@7W5 - Awesome! I was secretly hoping you'd chime in.
I appreciate your reply. I find it very helpful. And maybe this helps articulate my struggle a little bit. And I realize that part of my problem is I've been relying too much on YouTube for expertise and answers, which has it's inherent risks - too much "expert advice" from someone who copied someone else once and is regurgitating their limited experience as expertise using trendy-ish words to and other click-baity techniques to get clicks. But I guess I feel like there is still a gap in the content out there. I feel like many people are interested in permaculture, so they YT it. You get a bunch of information, and I think pretty quickly you get to "go take a PDC" as the way to learn, but that's a big commitment. And I think a lot of people (like myself) are not well versed in gardening and certainly not permaculture - and we end up asking questions like "ok, but how do I use permaculture and have a garden". I think that is a common and reasonable question, and I understand that the answer is not easy. I guess this is where I wished there was a better answer to that question. It must be a FAQ, no? I think what you said above is a great start of an answer to that question. I haven't seen content (YT, blogs etc) that express my struggle - "So you want to use permaculture and grow a garden. cool... good question, potentially hard answer. and here is why... and here are things you can do to work towards an answer. ps be careful of all the "look at my permacutlure garden" videos because while they might be nice veg gardens, there is a lot more to permaculture than just that". I still feel like my question could also be pretty simply answered... and I feel like the answer to "What is the/main permaculture-y way to grow vegetables?" is "start by looking hugelkultur bed and by the way don't forget permaculture is a whole lot more than growing veg... check out these resources to learn about the whole system - its rad trust us". Optionally say "raised beds are cool too, lets learn about no-till, composting, cover crops, etc etc and maybe we will make some swales with raised beds/mounds on the ground without box frames/containers". And in both situations, "start by growing what you love to eat. So much of the content out there seems to be about swales and you see some people planting red peppers on swales. Maybe thats cool, but it seems reasonable that swales are not really best for annual crops, and it's more about slowing down water and growing trees. Gardening Veg searches lead to Food Forests, which also sound awesome, but don't directly speak to annual vegetables. Fruit, nuts, ecosystem growth..yes. The thing that I think most people want to start with... Veg - not so much.
I"m pretty sure I heard Geoff Lawton say "Swales are for trees" (as in not for vegetables).
I sort of feel like I'm (mildly) raging into the void on this. Not quite sure why I feel like I'm struggling to articulate myself here. It just feels like there is a gap between "Permaculture is cool AF, could save the world, there are these amazing 3 ethics and 12 pinciples, get a PDC" and "do this really basic thing that most people seem to be interested in, which is grow a vegetable garden in a way that fits within permaculture". It seems like that would be a great way to grow the population of people understanding and following permaculture.
7Wannabe5 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 1:37 pm
So, you don't just need to observe what you or other omnivores in your region might forage as edible, you need to observe what other species, inclusive of the very small, is likely to also want to dine upon the fine feast of tender, non-toxic domesticated edibles you might plant in an annual bed. For example, in the wooded realm of my second permaculture project, extremely high, sturdy fences were required to keep the large population of deer out of any conventional garden patch.
Also awesome stuff. Totally makes sense and fits with the idea of considering the whole ecosystem... all to help you get the best yields from the system that you want.
In summary... I'm learning. It must all be above my WL to explain why there isin't (or I haven't found) more/better content out there to send someone down the permaculture path who just wants to begin to grow a vegetable garden in a permaculture-y way. It must be a FAQ. It must be a turnoff for many people who want to grow vegetables, so they just do something different. Is it like people who peek at ERE and flop over to FIRE? And maybe come back to ERE later? Argh. At this point in time, I believe there is a way to present and get people "into permaculture" by starting with "how do I best grow vegetables using permaculture?" Is it the same as "how to reduce your monthly expenses" while actually/eventualy leading them to ERE WL 6+
