Early Retirement Extreme Forums

Ego wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 04, 2022 6:07 pm

That fact makes it hard for some of us to read and engage with the ERE2 walls of words.

From the perspective of the more extroverted types, we as a forum are shy nerds sitting in a corner being shy with each other.

I'm going to start another thread for the ERE1 vs ERE2 discussion. Let's stay on topic in this one now.

Ego wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 04, 2022 6:07 pm

For others, talking about theories is the perfect distraction from doing ERE1 shit. That fact makes it hard for some of us to read and engage with the ERE2 walls of words.

I sometimes think this might in fact be the case for me, also part of the reason sometimes feel like backwards engineering ERE1 in my life to sort of tick it off. But then other days I look around and realise that no that is probably not the case for me.

I also think that whatever ERE, it must be embodied and the embodiment of it is in doing stuff of the sort that is in the ERE book (whatever the label and some people of course figured it out on their own).

As to the OP, well if you are going down the way of thinking where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, then the idea of 'lifestyles' can be contested and maybe it is more handy to speak of culture instead. Because then any lifestyle has to be seen in its context.

Guys, maybe I'm too practical here, but all of this can easily solved by keeping jargon-heavy ERE2 stuff in the ERE2 subfoum(s). No need to flesh out in detail *right now* what ERE2 is or will be. That's what the ERE2 forum is for.

If there is something in the ERE1 treads that's relevant in regards to ERE2 or lends itself to ERE2 discussion, just quote it inother thread and discuss. The quoted person gets a notification, so they known their point/opinion/ whatever is talked about elsewhere and can decide if they want to get involved or not.

Anyone who wants to learn about ERE2 or participate needs to study the lingo.
It's a club within a club, but the doors are open to anyone who's interested. It might even evolve so far that ideas can be conveyed to layman one day, who knows!

To simple? Maybe, but that's how I see it.

I think you are right on, @horsewoman. Completely agreed.
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Fish's new thread and description of ERE2 coagulated an idea from several others. Specifically, his idea of an ERE transition support service, plus my recent experience workawaying, plus the fact that I live on 70acres/20 hectares and don't have neighbors. Let's take those ideas and see if we can smoosh them together. We need to call it something for now. Ft. Dirtbag will do.

Let's add a few more concepts to the pot: Trade school, artist/scholar-in-residence, retreat center, workshop center, research institute.

Resources: water, fast internet, space, sun.

Constraints: 30 miles from town, little rainfall, high winds, hot in the summer.

The work in progress brief: Ft. Dirtbag is part self-directed training camp, part community center, based on the principles of ERE. The purpose is to facilitate the growth of ERE individuals, by being a physical Place where people can come and

a) not need to buy stuff,
b) work on practical skills as necessary (e.g. Ft. Dirtbag would be a great place to come put in hours on WL6 skills)
c) cultivate deep relationships with other ERE-minded folk (get those WoGs connected)
d) be enfolded in a postconsumer social milieu,
e) spend time developing one's theory, if that's what's appropriate for them
f) contribute/give back, by teaching/mentoring etc other EREites. Someone might be a great cook and can help teach cook. Someone might know primitive welding and can teach that. Another might understand the ecology of the region well and be a source there. Someone else might be an amazing musician and helps facilitate music.
g) think up and collaborate on group projects.
h) I guess the meta goal is simply to be a physical location where People who Have WoGs can come together and ???, and is spacious enough that that's logistically feasible. In other words, the purpose is to facilitate emergence.

The purpose is:

jacob wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 05, 2022 9:38 am

....to see a) what ERE1 individuals can do when they play together; and b) what may appear in the environment when that happens.

Some practicalities:
.Everything is off grid here so there aren't really any utility bills. Cooking is with propane though, until we get solar cookers going. It might work like $200/mo gets you a shelter and food, assuming the way food works is there's one deep pantry that all the ERE folk dip in on. Alternatively, everyone who comes is responsible for their own pantry and cooking, so there's basically no actual cost, just show up and take care of your own flows. It could be there's a variety of ways the flows of resources can be arranged (shelter, food, money, etc).
.My idea is that on the scale of (never meet your neighbors)----------------------|-----------------------(all up in each other's stuff every day talking stick kumbaya meeting ecovillage spiritual community) Ft. Dirtbag is near the middle. Much expectation for individual initiative and self-direction, and the knowledge that it's a safe place for people who can handle like thirty minutes of social interaction per day.
.People can stay as long as they don't suck, and as short as they want.
.Big emphasis on individual autonomy and self-possession.

Whereas in workaways, the idea is that the host has projects they want done and the workawayers volunteer to help with those projects, so there's almost a boss/employee dynamic, Ft. Dirtbag would be more about individual self-directed projects. Like I'm thinking about how artist in residence programs work, although I don't know much about those.

To emphasize: the purpose is NOT to get free labor on the walipini I want to build. There wouldn't necessarily be any expectation that people would work on projects that improve Ft. Dirtbag or even stay there. If someone's purpose of being there was to just chop wood, carry water, and do five hour meditation sessions on WoG diagrams all day, fine.

If people do want to e.g. gain experience working on a project that improves this place, there'd have to be some kind of fair exchange of value.

Some filters or requirements for application:
.must have some baseline skills and competencies. You can't not know how to cook for yourself, or not know how to not set your shelter on fire, for example. You need to have enough social skills to not get on everyone's nerves.
.Must have enough $ buffer to cover whatever your CoL is for the duration plus some margin... aka you don't have to be FI, but you can't be broke unless your skills level is at CoL=$0 per month. Which is not being broke, it's being moneyless.


ETA This is a thought experiment. Don't show up at my gate yet, please. It's cold here rn.

So, I don't have proper examples of lived ERE2, but I have some ideas of things I want to try out that may or may not count. My small town has a community association that I want to nudge in the direction of hosting a repair cafe, creating a car share program, tool share, food preservation classes/skillshares, and local currency (though that is sorta the least interesting thing to me).

I've also thought of trying to start a micro-loan program where it focused on things like adding insulation, solar panels for wells or small structures, retrofitting house to make them more snug/cheaper to live in, green houses, water storage to deal with drought etc. None of these ideas are really ERE2, but more like precursors to getting people used to working together and able to live more cheaply so they have more free time to build skills.

I am more and more interested in these ERE2 discussions because they move from the individual to the community, which is more in my wheelhouse. I might spend some time on spiral dynamics now because it seems more useful now.

I suspect there may be some overlap with this thread about nonconsumers/HOWLIES -

viewtopic.php?p=247071#p247071


I may be missing the mark a bit on ERE2, but Initially two of the ERE2 lifestyles/individuals I thought of were John Muir and Doug Tompkins. I thought specifically of these two because they were highly accomplished as individuals, achieved material wealth and ultimately shunned it, then spent the latter part of their life working on deep ecology. They each changed the paradigm around ecology and preservation in their respective communities. Much of their success was predicated on building a community to overcome social, economic, and political obstacles to achieving their environmental goals. Both were renaissance men in the way they lived their early lives. Here is a previous post I made regarding Tompkins with a link to a video on his legacy:

Western Red Cedar wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 06, 2021 5:15 pm

Another interesting HOWLI and OG dirtbag is Doug Tompkins. His case is interesting to me because he transitioned from a dirtbag lifestyle to one of affluence, but then back to (relative) simplicity. I think @Jacob expanded the WL table, at least in part, when considering that development must progress beyond the self.

Tompkins' practice of deep ecology, and his introduction of the "national park" concept to the nation of Chile, is incredibly inspiring. His story is one that challenges me to think beyond a self-indulgent, post-career lifestyle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QDnhjkULdM

Rachel Carson was another example I considered, but I know less about her personal life and journey. I suppose the major theme I was looking at was some kind of change beyond the local level. These three all shifted the paradigm which led to nationwide, measurable changes.

I know several people trying to start intentional communities to escape from...????

I don't think any of these people are actually practicing ERE2 bc they don't have the background of ERE. Before I discovered ERE, which was huge for me bc it synthesized a bunch of different beliefs that I had into one actionable philosophy, I thought much like them.

However, a lot of them are trying to do something similar to what I think ERE2 would look like.

Also, I'm not sure if anyone has noticed this macrotrend, but climate doomerism has been in vogue for the last 3-5 years among the political left in the United States. While they aren't really doing anything about it, most people that I anecdotally talk to will list it as one of the top 3 problems, if not the biggest problem, we are currently facing. This is a total change from even a few years ago, at least in my anecdotal experience.

Also also, for those of you playing the color game, a lot of the problems these communities are experiencing are on the order of either being Green or being stuck between the desire to be Green but still trapped in an Orange view of the world.



The biggest problem I've seen/ heard about among people trying to form alternative communities are interpersonal problems. From reading about attempts at these communities, a lot of them fall victim to idealism as well. I personally haven't witnessed this though.

Until recently I was living on an Urban Garden with a friend of mine who started the garden. The garden runs on volunteer labor, as well as a large effort put in by my friend. Calorically the garden probably produces enough food to feed both of us (mostly from fruit though), but distributionally it doesn't produce the sort of diet that anyone would want to eat... not sure if it would even sustain us if we had to totally rely on it. We also have a compost toilet, compost all of our food waste, solar panels and a few rain barrels (though we are no where near able to rely on them for our sole source of water. I think this is bc of lack of effort and knowledge more than lack of viability). He trades food to several local restaurants for cooked restaurant meals, as well as food for plant starts and seeds to local stores.

I appreciate what my friend does out there, bc while he is a hippy, he is also pretty lazy and realistic about what he can/ feels like doing. I was much more idealistic than him and accomplished much less of what I set out to do.

In terms of ERE2, we've failed to create a functional independent community. Shared spaces were squabbled over and interpersonal conflict has been our biggest problem. While this hasn't hindered the garden from success, this is largely bc we didn't set up much of a community. It would be inaccurate to say the garden has had no impact on the surrounding community (we distribute and collect food from our neighbor quite often) or that it is a failure of communal effort (as the garden attracts several local volunteers as well as Wwoofers). However, we are also really far from detaching ourselves from the oil economy and the monetary economy and being self-sustaining.

I think a lot of the reason for our successes have been that we didn't start from an idealized place of oil economy detachment. I think this is very ERE. We used and are using the existing system and structures that still exist and we are still subject to to our advantage anyway we can, while trying to put our ideals in place. We are also capable of recognizing our limits and laughing at our failures, bc we still have the time and resources to do so. Before I jokingly termed this pirateCaptainERE.



That garden was inspired by two other community gardens in New Orleans. I am much less familiar with either of them, but I know that neither has achieved the dream of successfully detaching from the oil economy or having fully functional communities. Both are successful at being involved with their surrounding communities, attracting volunteer labor and growing large impressive gardens.


I have another friend who is in his mid 20s who owns a house and a lot next door. He is also trying to start some sort of intentional community detachment thing. I don't think he is politically liberal*. He recently laid down slabs to put shipping container homes on and told me I've got a claim to one if I'm interested in joining. I'm not really sure what he is trying to do or how far he'll get.

*I mention politics only bc most of the people I know doing intentional community stuff are very far left, which influences their reasons or doing it.



I don't think these communities are a new idea and I'm not sure if more of them are popping up due to climate change worries or if I've just moved closer to a place in the world where people make them. I do see people wanting to make these kind of communities though and doing it with varying degrees of success. Paul Wheaton talks a lot about various experiments with community building. I think the question of who does the dishes will always haunt them. I also think there Green (sorry guys)/ Commie/ hippie leanings hold them back as a little injection of capitalism and personal autonomy would solve a lot of the problems... I think.



***I also get that ERE2 is not just hippies building community gardens and that the goal isn't necessarily oil economy detachment or intentional community building.

Jin + Guice wrote:Also, I'm not sure if anyone has noticed this macrotrend, but climate doomerism has been in vogue for the last 3-5 years among the political left in the United States. While they aren't really doing anything about it, most people that I anecdotally talk to will list it as one of the top 3 problems, if not the biggest problem, we are currently facing. This is a total change from even a few years ago, at least in my anecdotal experience.

I agree. For instance, a random selection of 5 new and recommended novels off of the NYT 2018 list would have included maybe one that dealt with or discussed this topic. Now, the majority will address the topic, if only to dismiss it as most relevant perspective/problem.

I think the question of who does the dishes will always haunt them. I also think there Green (sorry guys)/ Commie/ hippie leanings hold them back as a little injection of capitalism and personal autonomy would solve a lot of the problems... I think.

In a weird and not necessarily to be recommmended way, my Lentil Baby alliances with CalorieKing types solved both of these problems. As in, you bring the Capital and I'll "do the dishes."

7Wannabe5 wrote: ↑

Fri Dec 23, 2022 1:00 pm

In a weird and not necessarily to be recommmended way, my Lentil Baby alliances with CalorieKing types solved both of these problems. As in, you bring the Capital and I'll "do the dishes."

Yes, one modern tragedy I have noticed is that the political divide between communism and capitalism makes the majority of people blind to the fact that almost all practical problems are solved with a bit of both. I have yet to see a communally minded set of people who are willing to set up a shared kitchen space for their tiny house eco-village understand how a division of property rights and strict division of labor in certain areas solve a lot of communal issues. And I've yet to see the Freedman touting capitalist understand that having a giant house where all chores are paid for is only "efficient" under a very narrow definition of the word and perhaps sub-optimal in sad-man grumps reduction. While I am arm chair supposing, I also presume that executing the intentional "communal spaces with a bit of capitalism injected" model would likely require higher than average communication and emotional skills...

@Jin+Guice.

Sounds about right. When I was in the military living in barracks, this dishes problem was solved easy. You make a mess - you clean it. Occasionally, you get a knucklehead that didn't do their dishes and no one knows who the culprit is. No matter. To ensure constant cleanliness, every week one or two individuals was assigned as the "dorm chief(s)" where all they did that week was clean the dorms, kitchen areas, etc. instead of their normal job duties on base. They did nothing else that week. And this job was rotated so that everyone who lived in the dorms/barracks ended up with the responsibility of doing someone else' dishes anyway. The benefit here is that everyone is invested in dorm cleanliness and less messes occurred as a result out of respect for the dorm chief. The barracks were communal as well as being a place where division of labor occurred. Therefore, make no mistake - optimal communal living is the idea that their should be both shared responsibilities and a division of a labor.

Right now I'm reading "The Dawn of Everything: A New History of Humanity" by David Graeber / David Wengrow and this book is rather enlightening in a way because it has shown evidence that indigenous Native American peoples, African peoples, East Asian, etc. were not all simple egalitarian bands that never subjugated one another to a division of labor and tasks through hierarchy / authority. We don't have this flexibility today as state power is quite significant, but Humans "in nature" quite often set up and dismantled social structures ad-hoc with the change of the seasons, changes in resources, changes in population levels, etc. In other words, they were quite flexible in their social organizations and in contrast to the far left (anarchist?) ideology of communal living where hierarchies are never set up and there are not rules, responsibilities, legal codes, etc. that everyone is expected to adhere to. The enforcement of these unwritten laws was different - as opposed to a police force and fines, social shaming was much more powerful.

So when I think to the problem of why people conflict in communal living...its due to a lack of social practice and too much ideology. I think you've alluded to this. Being brought up in a more strict hierarchical society / capitalism and then trying to become egalitarian in this system doesn't work well. Like Bane in Batman: " Oh, you think darkness is your ally. But you merely adopted the dark; I was born in it, molded by it." So you've this communal living space with people born and raised in Orange trying to play Green.

Perhaps communal living...one needs to be born into it? Or the easiest thing - drop the ideology and work with the army you've and not the one you wish you had.

were i live, it's a very detached community, but we are at the end of many waste stream, the number allows us to use all those wastes, the diversity of skills allows many problems to be solved internally. It makes it quite easy to live there for 500 per month.
I think it's a very good compromise. every one functions as a capitalist, but some ressources are shared.

I think the main problem for those commubities is that they attracte people whose mental illnesses are out of control. having none of them makes life much easier.

Lemur wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 24, 2022 6:53 pm

When I was in the military living in barracks, this dishes problem was solved easy. You make a mess - you clean it. Occasionally, you get a knucklehead that didn't do their dishes and no one knows who the culprit is. No matter. To ensure constant cleanliness, every week one or two individuals was assigned as the "dorm chief(s)" where all they did that week was clean the dorms, kitchen areas, etc. instead of their normal job duties on base. They did nothing else that week. And this job was rotated so that everyone who lived in the dorms/barracks ended up with the responsibility of doing someone else' dishes anyway.

Lemur wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 24, 2022 6:53 pm

So when I think to the problem of why people conflict in communal living...its due to a lack of social practice and too much ideology.

Ah the communality of the military interesting. When I think of a current communal society, I think of the Amish. From what I've observed, the cost of communality is individualism, as in there is a very strict social code and if you break it you're out of the group. For you color theorists, is this Green or Blue?

Anyway, that's the thing I try not to bring up to the hippies, who for all their communal beliefs like a fair amount of autonomy. But maybe they're just people raised in an individualistic society trying to come back to a communal one? (or as @Lemur said, people from an Orange society trying to be Green).

I want to say Amish / Military is definitely Blue. Collective + Strict Social Code and Hierarchy. Green is also collective like blue but values harmony whereas Blue is more about order.

Blue values are ingrained in basic training and carry with you throughout your service - an example might be if one person is late to formation, then everyone does pushups. Not just that individual.

Jin+Guice wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 26, 2022 10:44 am

Ah the communality of the military interesting. When I think of a current communal society, I think of the Amish. From what I've observed, the cost of communality is individualism, as in there is a very strict social code and if you break it you're out of the group. For you color theorists, is this Green or Blue?

Both and also purple, the so-called "cold colors". Break the code and you'll be cast out albeit in different ways, each way reflecting the opposite of the highest held value. The individual who refuses to play along will get sanctioned according to what the group values.

Purple values family bonds, so out = disowned by the family
Blue values faith, so out = excommunicated from the faith community
Green values loving inclusion, so out = cold shoulder from the group

Ironically, extreme individualists likely don't care that much about the punishment, but for the collectively oriented person who didn't conform, these sanctions would be bad news indeed.

The military is red/blue. Breaking the military code results in a dishonorable discharge: excommunicated (blue) and loss of honor (red).

Are there any examples of successful Green communities?

Define successful… If I understand Green correctly, The Notre-Dame-Des-Landes ZAD (Zone à Défendre/Zone To Defend) comes to mind. 2012-2018, mostly. At its height counted a community of up to 100 squats/collectives with various characteristics. Result: the project of building an airport at the area definitely shelved. Result: participants' lives changed through community experience, praxis and struggle. Result: Inspiration for other ZADs, blocades, ecology/political initiatives in France and elsewhere.

Jin+Guice wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 26, 2022 9:42 pm

Are there any examples of successful Green communities?

I think this question is better asked in a different thread. ETA: I started a thread on this topic here: viewtopic.php?t=12632

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Let's bring this back to ERE2 lifestyles rather than talking about colors in general. If you want to delve into examples of particular color communities that are successful, create a new thread.

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One criteria for an ERE2 community to exist is to have many people who are free to do things outside of the normal job/economy situation together, I wonder if we can find examples of this in wealthy families? They generally don't meet the Renaissance ideal because they can use money to solve all their problems without thinking, however they can spend their time doing other things or solving other problems than the basics of living like most salarymen/etc because they don't have to focus on making a living. What tends to happen when people without Renaissance skills, but with the freedom not to spend all their time making a living work together? Anything worthwhile in relation to this thread's topic?

DAMN YOU COLORS!!!!

Let me reframe my question to what is more interesting to me and we can specifically keep going deeper on the color talk in the other thread IF WE FEEL LIKE IT.

Are the Amish an example of an ERE2 community?

Are there examples of ERE2 communities that solve the problem of "who does the dishes" without strict social norm enforcement (i.e., if you don't do the dishes you are expelled from the group or everyone has to do 100 push-ups so you will get beat up in your sleep...)?

The classic example from Ishmael is the traveling circus group (who are probably less prevalent than 30ish years ago when the book was written). Basically the community needs everyone for the show to perform and thus everyone is accorded importance. The community, while somewhat separated from the world at large, understands the importance of money and pays their way, even if it isn’t highly valued within the in group. There are plenty of builders, costumers, etc who mend and create new sets and costumes. New members are welcome (obviously not an unlimited number, but still), provided they put in the work to learn the skill sets needed to join the community and provide actual value.

A similar but different community these days would probably be show crews for concerts, with the traveling and then building and constructing and deconstruction of sets. But I don’t know if there is a whole culture embedded into it like with the circuses.