Embracing Solitude: INTJ's Journey Towards Retirement

[okumurahata]

Audience count? Live or remote? Duration? Venue? Slide deck?

20ish; live; 10min; office; slides.

[okumurahata]

I don't think the possibility that Oku is an abhorrent public speaker who would be the primary benificiary of a universally imposed vow of silence should be discarded. Actually, I would bet he's as bad if not worse than he thinks he is. I think Oku should watch/re-watch the King's Speech in order that he's given an example of how even those rightfully possessing a debilitating fear of of public speaking can rise to functional mediocrity.

Have watched the trailer. Will watch the full film. Thanks, @Henry.

I’m wondering why there’s always something in life that can torture humans. Right now, it’s the office, politics, coworkers, public speaking. If I reach FI one day, what’s going to be the next thing? Neighbours, unemployment, the fear of losing everything, illnesses.

The Sims developers knew that we humans can’t live without desires and fears. There’s always something to achieve or overcome. The next substitute is always waiting around the corner.

[guitarplayer]

That’s a good insight I think about that torture, it’s what funnel vision does and also the reason I like to zoom out sometimes. Come to think of it, in our privileged world there currently is very little to actually fear. So the torture is in the head. It is even possible with some experience to distinguishing between the two, fear and anxiety. For example if I recall being chased by a group of people in my past, this felt different to when I sometimes get caught up ruminating about insignificant stuff.

I also don’t like giving presentations and had to give two at work recently, one to someone hierarchically 3 levels above mine. I scripted the slides in R (you could do something similar in python) and what I got out of it was a nicer experience because the slides were working really well in html and I had everything pre thought and was sure what’s in the slides is exactly what I want to talk about because I sourced a bunch of insights from somewhere else in the project repo. So I had no worry of any trivial faux pas being in there or at least it was very small chance for it. It was a bit of a hans rosling gapminder experience and everyone was happy.

One thing I speculate is often true with presentations is that they are little about the information and more a performance sort of thing. Because information, well if someone is really interested they will find stuff on their own won’t they?

[zbigi]

One thing I speculate is often true with presentations is that they are little about the information and more a performance sort of thing. Because information, well if someone is really interested they will find stuff on their own won’t they?

Presentations in corporate settings are usually about progress reports or ideas that are specific to the company's context ("how we plan to use ML model X for company problem Y"). Things that are widely available are rarely presented, because there's indeed little point to it. An exception are "brown bags": semi-informal presentations done during lunch hour (stealing workers' time off BTW), where one team member usually summarizes something they have learned and that could be learned from publicly available resources. Even during those brown bags, the focus is on presenting the material in the context of team's specific needs.

[guitarplayer]

Hehe there's the learning for me then, maybe I will be owing you giving me a leg up with gaining promotion sometime. I still (forever will?) struggle to go all the way corporate and my performance on the imaginary corporate behaviour kpi (or maybe there is actually such one) is just about passable though I think people like to have me around because I can often fix their problems and am easy to be around.

Back to my speculation, I might be overestimating people's ability to derive insight from information or see the range of possibilities then.

[jacob]

Back to my speculation, I might be overestimating people's ability to derive insight from information or see the range of possibilities then.

I think there's a rather large range both in terms of how much effort people put in or need to put into making presentations as well as how much various people get out of sitting through one. You could draw a 2D diagram of each axis and make a scatter plot covering the range of people attending and presenting.

Also, a presentation may not be exclusively about conveying information about some technical detail, which could be better explained in an email, but rather information about the presenter like how confident do their appear? Do they know their material well enough to deal with crazy questions? Are they good at selling, explaining, or communicating in person?

It can therefore be the distinction between connecting information with other information and connecting humans with other humans as well as the crossovers human->information or information->human.

[AxelHeyst]

I once gave a presentation on my area of expertise to the senior leadership of the company, and took it upon myself to connect the dots for them between my scope (how to produce good engineering drawings using new 3d software package) and their scope (how to manage a company effectively at and between the levels of Principal > Engineer of Record > Design Engineers > Drawing Production Staff). Some of my points included insights like "It appears to me that none of our PMs have ever read a book or taken a course on how to manage projects, but I looked it up on the internet and such things do indeed exist. Maybe we should investigate this?" But I did it in a way that didn't come off as overly disrespectful - I tuned it so it came off like a young gun who was at the end of his rope with their bullshit and would they please just help him do his job better so all the projects can go smoother and we can all win more?

I gave this presentation in 2012 or thereabouts. I was just at the retirement part for my old CEO last weekend, and >1 person brought that presentation up to me as being impactful in how they managed their region.

It also got me invited back to the global leadership summit every year to give a talk on something or other (the CEO just always made a speaker slot for me and either gave me a topic or asked what I wanted to talk about), which was access to relationships with the C-suite and regional directors and some of the subject matter hotshots. If I'd actually been on a conventional career ladder that would have been perfect positioning for rapid climbing - as it was, I'd stuffed myself into a weird expertise niche where there was no conventional hierarchy of ascension, so my career from that point was just... kind of strange.

Point is, developing above-average presentation skills is a cheat code in the corporate world AND access to interesting experiences. I got to hang out in Vancouver and eat at cool restaurants and drink Scotch that someone else paid for, and people gave me more interesting projects and connected me to interesting people. They also assumed I was competent and could handle broader scoped stuff than they otherwise would have. I suspect it's also a cheat code in terms of just about any kind of organization (corporate or otherwise). The next time I find myself in an organization that I want to build power, influence, and action in, I'll keep a sharp eye out for presentation opportunities and put a lot of effort into doing a good job.

I should mention that I've been giving presentations for a long time, but I'm not a natural public speaker. I just studied my ass off and worked really hard to make good presentations and got in a fair number of reps. I still felt like vomiting before most of them. But the effort was totally worth it, looking back.

Most people adopt a victim mindset towards presentations: omfg, why is this happening to me, I'm not good at this, I'd rather die, the corporate world is bs, etc. I recommend an aggressive mindset: *hell yes*, I get to compete in an arena that 98% of all humans are **terrified** by and suck at. A modicum of deliberate effort will get me to "not horrible", and a solid effort will get me to "impressive". This is going to be very hard and painful but w/e, jokes on them, one day I'll be really good at this *for myself* not for them. \

The first mindset might be more technically accurate, but the second mindset is funner.

My favorite books on presentations:
The Naked Presenter, Garr Reynolds
Resonate, Nancy Duarte

Good luck Oku.

[okumurahata]

November 2024 update:

Code: Select all

// ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
// Assets
// ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Stocks: 49.530,86 EUR
Cash: 21.178,48 EUR
+----------------------------------+
TOTAL = 70.709,34 EUR
+----------------------------------+

// ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
// Liabilities
// ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Debt: 0 EUR
+----------------------------------+
TOTAL = 0 EUR
+----------------------------------+

// ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
// Monthly income
// ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Job: 1.599 EUR
GF contribution: 450 EUR
+----------------------------------+
TOTAL = 2.049 EUR
+----------------------------------+

// ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
// Monthly expenses
// ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rent: 500 EUR
Electricity: ~40 EUR
Water: ~20 EUR
Internet: 40 EUR
Food: ~400 EUR
Gym: ~50 EUR
+----------------------------------+
TOTAL = 1.050 EUR
+----------------------------------+

Progress until retirement (considering 25x yearly expenses):

Code: Select all

⬛⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜ 22,44%

I had two presentations. The first one was with the entire infrastructure team, where I usually never speak. I pushed myself to prepare a ppt with a calendar and discussed the risks of not deploying the new app as scheduled. The team was very supportive, knowing how hard it is for me to express how things are going. They even made a few jokes to help me feel comfortable during my talk.

For the second presentation, I was extremely nervous—the kind of nerves where you get that feeling in your stomach and can’t think clearly. This presentation was in front of about 20 strangers, and I felt incredibly insecure and anxious. I think the audience could sense it. I mentioned it would be a quick presentation, and it was. I feel deeply insecure when I need to explain things in a business setting, especially if I feel I’m being judged.

Sunday was my birthday. 34. I’m late to the first ‘E’ in ERE. I received some money as gifts but only bought an AirTag replica from AliExpress for 1 EUR to put on my motorbike, just in case.

Overcoming fears is good, but I pay the price of being extremely uncomfortable and stressed. I honestly prefer to keep my head down and avoid being noticed.

[delay]

Thanks for your journal update! That looks like a really frugal month. I wonder if overcoming fears is good in and of itself. If giving a presentation results in mental damage, is avoiding them properly called fear, or is it really intelligence?

Congratulations on your 5th 30th birthday!

[guitarplayer]

Happy birthday+1week @oku! I like that phrase of Seth Godin that I paraphrase here, something along the lines of ‘just give yourself a fail already, then you can get done with all the judgement thing and carry on at ease’. You have 21 months of expenses in cash, this is plenty!

Separately, I wonder if you were considering moving to a more income generating country to get to ERE quicker so you don’t have to submit to all these presentations? You’re in IT and your English is great so at the least you could easily head to Ireland and I wouldn’t be far off to say you’d double your pay. The weather is not that terrible (I speak from Scotland as a proxy). Of course you could venture to countries closer to Spain and simply get an English speaking job.

Or is there something particularly nice about the Spanish way of working that you prefer to stick to it?

[Henry]

Sunday was my birthday. 34. I’m late to the first ‘E’ in ERE.

On the bright side, you're more than half way to traditional retirement age.

[okumurahata]

@delay, it reminds me of the article titled “If you are so smart, why aren’t you rich? Turns out you’re fucking stupid.” If I were so clever, I’d have retired already…

@guitarplayer, when I get to a low point, I fantasise to work in another country to earn more money—considered the UAE, Qatar or Saudi Arabia in the past—but my family is here, and my girlfriend has a job now. Life in Spain is good, apart from salary issues and the quality of some jobs. Excuses, perhaps, and the grass is always greener, I’d say… If I went to work in Ireland, I’d earn more, but I’d likely be unhappy for other reasons.

@Henry, that’s true. Not directly related, but I’m not sure if you’ve seen what happened in Valencia recently. I’ve been reflecting on how many people would trade places with me (thinking on the bright side of things). In this forum, some people have AA or KK. I’m playing with something between 88 and double 10s. Not bad for most, but not a hand I can confidently go all-in with. I’m recognising my limitations of bluffing, and wondering if ERE is just a fantasy given the hand I’ve got, and my ability to play.

[zbigi]

Can you live happily in Spain while saving 75%+ of your post tax-income? If so, you will ERE. If not, you won't, unless you change something. My recomendation is to consider moving to Switzerland. They pay mad money for ordinary jobs and skillsets, have relatively low taxes, and EU citizens can work there without any hassle. You could really bulk up there, and likely retire before hitting 40 yo. Apart from Norway, it's only country in Europe that has salaries comparable to US (up to low six figures for people with desirable skills), but Norway has much higher taxes.

[guitarplayer]

Switzerland is what I am aiming at but given my turtle pace I might be ERE before I get there.

In the meantime, I am getting ready for spending a good part of late autumn and winter in the very Spain. See if life is good over there.

[Western Red Cedar]

I’m recognising my limitations of bluffing, and wondering if ERE is just a fantasy given the hand I’ve got, and my ability to play.

Keep in mind that FIRE and extremely early retirement aren't the same as ERE. Building and maintaining a life that you are content with while you are working is critical. If the path to financial independence feels like a prison sentence, then the approach and systems probably need some tinkering.

[zbigi]

the path to financial independence feels like a prison sentence

This is extremely subjective though. Basically 95% (99% ?) of jobs in the developed world would feel like a vacation to a typical person living in XIX century. And they weren't all thoroughly unhappy and miserable, although I'm sure many people were. My point is, sometimes it's better to work on one's expectations (by lowering them), rather than on circumstances such as a job. I believe "sucking it up", and treating adversity as a challenge and opportunity for personal growth, is a part of Jacob's life philosophy, and was in part what made EREing doable for him. I mean, for most people living in a van would be hell. But, he turned it into an adventure, and got personal growth and huge savings at the same time. Was it easy? For sure no. But beating the system will never be, unless you're very lucky (e.g. born in the US and having a tech job during the boom).

[okumurahata]

This is extremely subjective though. Basically 95% (99% ?) of jobs in the developed world would feel like a vacation to a typical person living in XIX century.

Disagree. Society is so accustomed to the 9-to-5 that it’s well accepted and it seems desirable for most people compared to past eras (but we actually can’t compare, we don’t know how it was back then, because we are living right now). Point is, while I would enjoy living on a beach with not much to do, I’m not sure if someone from the Amazon would consider it a vacation to wear a suit and sit in an office for over eight hours a day.

Problem is that I know the iPhone, hot water, the internet, planes, motorbikes… I can’t go back to an undeveloped society. However, if I could create a copy of the world without technology and be born into it again, I’m not sure if that simulation would be more enjoyable than our brave new world. You could project the theory into the future as well. The developed world of today will be the iGnoRamUs PLaNeT of tomorrow. But are you sure that society will be better in the future with 24/7 AI jobs? No idea.

Finally, it’s true that 9-to-5 isn’t physically demanding, but mentally can be tough—especially for certain personality types. Why then 99% of society want to escape from it?

[zbigi]

On toughness of mentally demanding jobs: there are people on the Internet who worked the tough jobs (e.g. roofer) and later progressed into air-conditioned office jobs. Maybe it's selection bias, but they all consider their current office jobs a bit of a joke compared to physical labor. Isn't that (that and the pay difference) why parents push kids so hard towards the office jobs, even though they require so much more education?

My grandma was someone who basically lived the XIX century lifestyle. Subsistence farming, no doctor, no medicine, hunger as a part of life (family plot not large enough), almost no income, so standard of living not that much more advanced than in the Amazon jungle - they built their own house, grew hemp to make their own clothes, grew their own tobacco etc. She considered working in a coal mine a big improvement - at least she wasn't hungry any more, and had money to buy things that civilzation makes (such as medicine). She had a hard time taking seriously my complaints about my office job.

[okumurahata]

December 2024 update:

Code: Select all

// ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
// Assets
// ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Stocks: 51.165,48 EUR
Cash: 20.142,11 EUR
+----------------------------------+
TOTAL = 71.307,59 EUR
+----------------------------------+

// ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
// Liabilities
// ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Debt: 0 EUR
+----------------------------------+
TOTAL = 0 EUR
+----------------------------------+

// ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
// Monthly income
// ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Job: 1.599 EUR
GF contribution: 450 EUR
+----------------------------------+
TOTAL = 2.049 EUR
+----------------------------------+

// ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
// Monthly expenses
// ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rent: 500 EUR
Electricity: ~40 EUR
Water: ~20 EUR
Internet: 40 EUR
Food: ~400 EUR
Gym: ~50 EUR
+----------------------------------+
TOTAL = 1.050 EUR
+----------------------------------+

Progress until retirement (considering 25x yearly expenses):

Code: Select all

⬛⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜ 22,64%

We’ve been in Thailand for two weeks. I spent more than I wanted but enjoyed it immensely. These past couple of weeks feel as though I’ve been out of society for months.

I’ve gained 2 kg, mostly from drinking DQ Moolatte Caramel, eating pad kra pao, fried pork, fish, chicken, and many kilos of sticky rice. Thai food is absolutely delicious.

Some random reflections: We visited my girlfriend’s parents in their village. There wasn’t much to do there except sleep in the tranquillity of the jungle. I broke my record for sleeping, managing more than 10 hours and 30 minutes in a day. My in-laws are so kind, and Thai people, in general, are incredibly friendly. Despite the language barrier, I felt happy there. After a couple of days, I got used to the toilets without flushing and realised I could live there with very little consumption.

On the way to Pattaya, in a taxi, my girlfriend spotted a friend of mine—a photographer—whom I hadn’t seen in four years. I got out of the car to greet her, and we chatted for a few minutes. I remembered when we first met at a rooftop bar in Bangkok, and she suggested we go for beers on Khaosan Road. I liked her but was just starting my current relationship with my girlfriend, so I decided not to go. We spoke sporadically after that but lost touch during Covid.

Seeing her brought a wave of nostalgia for life before Covid. Perhaps it’s because I was younger, but I felt more optimistic about life back then than I do now.

To be continued…

[ertyu]

Tell us the story of how you ended up in Thailand the first time, I'm curious what you did and how you met your girlfriend