How do ERE men attract women?

[7Wannabe5]

but it's not getting anyone any closer to figuring out what they're doing wrong.

I think, as with most things it can be approached through the motivation triangle of Vision/Dissatisfaction/Plan. If I was a man having difficulties, I would initially set my Vision to "any reasonably attractive female who will have me", raise my dissatisfaction by maybe not watching too much internet porn, and my plan would be to make myself hit on one woman every day for 100 days in a variety of venues and spend 5 minutes reflecting on what went wrong/could go better towards improvement. IOW, pretty much what I would do towards improving at a sport if I was at all interested in sports. Obviously, one huge problem would be that I would have to maintain my level of dissatisfaction as higher than the hurdle/hassle of constant rejection while improving my game. I have some empathy for men in this regard, because my first husband sexually turned me down all the time (monogamy is definitely not a guarantee of lack of frustration for all participants) and I just kept trying, but it does wear you down after a while. Obviously, the advantage of the open market is that what doesn't work with one possible partner might work with another.

[okumurahata]

Lack of sex can be an issue that generates frustration, but in today’s society, where sex is abundant, the real challenge lies in maintaining long-term chemistry. You can go out for a night, have a couple of Gins, and play the dating roulette of the evening (if you’re female, odds are in your favor). Repeat this, and the pleasure becomes akin to buying something new; each time, the excitement is shorter-lived. When you’re young, perhaps it’s fun to have plenty of sex with various people, but what’s truly enjoyable is finding someone with whom you can share intimacy after years together. I suppose that, in the end, most people aim to recreate the exhilaration of their first love, only to realize that it’s impossible to replicate.

Like with most things we consume, humans often use sex as a validation of our lovability. Having said that, there’s nothing colder and more boring than engaging in sex merely for the sake of it. In terms of ERE, it’s akin to heading to the shopping mall to buy a new pair of Sebago just to fill a void.

I detest that emptiness, and even though I’m aware that sex won’t replace it, I still find myself falling into that trap time and time again. At some point, you need to recognise that the first love won’t return. You’ll never experience that initial love again. Having unlimited sex won’t fill that void.

[ertyu]

The part that no one wants to hear is that if you are not getting women, it's you.

And in the end, this is the only part that leads to taking personal responsibility. When it comes to finances, most people here would say that no matter how "the system" is or isn't, you ultimately need to embrace personal agency and focus of developing your own skills and changing your own behaviors. (Doesn't mean "the system" isn't fucked but rather that one can only get anywhere by focusing on what one has control over).

When you listen to men who whine about not getting women, you observe a common tone: Women deny good guys sex. They only like chads / tall men / white men / rich men / etc. In other words, the focus is anywhere but on the person's own actions, behavior, mindset, and vibe. It's basically people not wanting to look at themselves and face the truth about themselves.

[ffj]

@chenda
Peterson denies the existence of climate change? Or does his response to it clash with others? If you have an easily accessible link I would be interested in reading it.

@7
I am only shocked by your example of a supposed deficit in a monogamous marriage for a woman. Call me old-fashioned, but one of the main motivations for a woman getting married should be the protection and support of the man she has married. I am always perplexed why anybody would get married if they still wanted unfettered sex with multiple people other than whoever they married. What is the point? It makes no sense other than some legal protections.

That is not to say people can't live their lives as they see fit. And if marriage is going to put a damper on your sexual predilections then you probably should abstain. From marriage.

@zbigi
China I have heard has a surplus of around 5 million men due to women aborting a lot of the girls under the 1 child policy when it was in existence. That's a lot of dudes without a chance of finding a partner of the opposite sex. Lots of ramifications in that scenario similar to high position men taking a lot of the women for themselves.

@okumurahata
That is kind of my point about marriage. It's more than sex, although sex is still very important. If you want something more than fleeting pleasures, then you have to invest in something more substantial and long-term.

[zbigi]

@ffj

Peterson has a whole playlist of his past podcast on climate and climate-adjacent subjects:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... 7Hl9tuWyNc

I'd start with this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LVSrTZ ... Nc&index=4

It's an interview with an OG climate scientist, who explains the issues with the current models (in short - poor predictive capability due to us not understanding climate well enough to model it accurately) and also gives a backstory of how a small minority group of convinced global warming alarmists took over climate science back in the nineties.

His other videos from that list also raise the issue that our current response (rapidly abandoning fossil fuels on top of which our encomies and our wellbeing are built) to climate change will do more harm that rise of temperature itself, especially to poor people across the world.

[Slevin]

I'd start with this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LVSrTZ ... Nc&index=4

It's an interview with an OG climate scientist, who explains the issues with the current models (in short - poor predictive capability due to us not understanding climate well enough to model it accurately) and also gives a backstory of how a small minority group of convinced global warming alarmists took over climate science back in the nineties.

This is the guy who consistently submitted shoddy papers on climate change that were subject to initial conditions and other bad errors that shouldn't have ever made it publishing, yeah? And then got chewed out in a response by NOAA and NASA researchers?
https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com ... 09GL042314

Who just like keeps arguing against all the actual data we have on the subject?
https://skepticalscience.com/lindzen-il ... lileo.html

And somehow keeps arguing clouds will damp global warming regardless of the numerous current studies showing exactly the opposite?
https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2026290118
https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com ... 19RG000678

[chenda]

I don't want Jacob to feel he needs to lock this thread so we should probably return to discussing helping men find women.

[ertyu]

@Slevin that was glorious, thanks, even though it was off-topic.

[ffj]

@zbigi
I'm guessing that he doesn't deny that climate changes, just that interpretations of modeling are flawed. Which would be consistent with his personality. I'll watch the video, although bit by bit (this topic is so lengthy) and thank you for the links.

@Slevin
I'll read your links also, but my intention was to find out what Peterson thinks on a personal level. Did he have that guest on to challenge beliefs or to promote that viewpoint? Or to challenge how people think and interpret? I'll have to find out.

Chenda is right however, we should return to regular programming. Apologies for the sidebar.

[7Wannabe5]

Like with most things we consume, humans often use sex as a validation of our lovability. Having said that, there’s nothing colder and more boring than engaging in sex merely for the sake of it. In terms of ERE, it’s akin to heading to the shopping mall to buy a new pair of Sebago just to fill a void.

First I should note that in my post above I wasn't implying that I would have sex with 100 women in 100 days if I was a young man; I was implying that if I was a young man, I would be so dorky it would likely take me 87 attempts just to get a girl to agree to meet me for coffee. I very much agree that the constant pursuit of casual sex can be, as Johnny Lee noted, "looking for love in all the wrong places." OTOH, sex is way too deep and ancient to write off as analogous to a shiny consumer good. There is a level on which "sex for the sake of sex" can be experienced and appreciated like "swimming in the ocean for the sake of swimming in the ocean."

Also, in my experience, the void of which you speak is best first filled by loving yourself; even the very best and most intimate long term relationship can't do it for you, and to the extent that you are projecting this need on to your partner(s), you will be blocking higher intimacy, because making of the other a "love object." One critical relationship skill is the ability to help yourself fall out of love "disengage" when a relationship is otherwise unhealthy. The method for falling back in love "re-engaging" intermittently throughout the course of a reasonably healthy long-term relationship is almost the exact opposite practice. Once you've mastered this skill or practice, you can choose to not engage in a significant relationship without feeling lonely. IOW, "loving" and "lovable" is something you "have" as opposed to something you "are."

I am only shocked by your example of a supposed deficit in a monogamous marriage for a woman. Call me old-fashioned, but one of the main motivations for a woman getting married should be the protection and support of the man she has married. I am always perplexed why anybody would get married if they still wanted unfettered sex with multiple people other than whoever they married. What is the point? It makes no sense other than some legal protections.

I think we are closer to agreement than my rather obtuse writing style may make evident. I agree that "protection and support" in exchange for something akin to "comfort and devotion" is the functional and fair trade inherent in Traditional Western Marriage. In simplest terms, my disagreement with Peterson and company would be that I think it is Modernity/Focus on Money/Professionalism/Individualism that killed Traditional Western Marriage, not Post-Modernity with its focus on alternative means by which to find Love and Belonging. I also agree that Post-Modernity has not come up with a new solution, or set of solutions, for Love and Belonging that will work well for everybody. I could make the obvious note that Traditional Western Marriage also did not work well for everybody, but that would be as facile as pointing out the flaws in Capitalism with no functional alternative at hand.

So, I am weakly attempting to come up with possibilities or discuss solutions others have suggested at post-post-modern. One thing that I have noticed is that almost all of the solutions for Love and Belonging suggested at post-post-modern tend to revive the concept of gender. But, reviving the concept of gender does not necessarily equate to enforcing or re-enforcing traditional gender roles; like it or not, that boat has sailed. We are 8 billion on this planet, so we can't survive without the efficiencies of Modernity, but Modernity killed Traditionalism. Of course, there is a very real possibility that we won't survive 8,9,10 billion on this planet, and the economic collapse very likely will lead to a reversion to many Traditional social structures, as "protect and provide" becomes much more visceral in the moment. Dunno. What I do know, or feel very strongly in my heart, is that a circle of Queer youth hugging each other after choir rehearsal or engaging in community garden work is not what is going to take down humanity.

[okumurahata]

I hope I didn’t sound harsh; my previous comment was a general observation, not directed towards @7Wannabe5 previous post. Anyway, I find these concepts quite intriguing. I’m enjoying this entire discussion, and I hope @jacob doesn’t close it. Now, in response to @7Wannabe5 points, I don’t entirely agree with the ‘love yourself’ concept. It often brings to mind the self-centeredness found in some self-help books. To me, ‘loving yourself’ is a peculiar notion, akin to a form of narcissism. It’s akin to observing that person on Instagram who posts a thousand selfies - deep down, you sense something isn’t quite right.

In my view, love carries a formidable aspect. It’s a choice, a commitment to stand by someone, regardless of what transpires with them. For instance, love is a mother visiting her son in prison, even though he’s been convicted as a serial killer. Love is the homeless that stays with the dog on the street (or vice versa). Love is rising in the morning to be with your friend who’s battling cancer. Love is mustering the strength to face the day, knowing you have a daughter to provide for.

In many cases, people enter contracts where they pledge to love someone until certain conditions change - youth fades, financial situations fluctuate, status or jobs are lost, health declines, weight is gained, and so on. The rising divorce rates can shed light on why these contracts often come to an end. True, unconditional love is possible, but it also implies that the person you love could, theoretically, be replaced by anyone else.

In reality, there exists a spectrum between this lofty, divine concept of love and the transactional nature of certain interactions, akin to the exchange of sex in a massage parlor. Most people, I reckon, fall somewhere in between. Engaging in sex purely for the physical act is akin to drinking wine merely for the taste - it’s fine to do so, as long as you’re aware that having sex isn’t synonymous with being loved, just as drinking wine doesn’t equate to becoming a social butterfly.

I believe humans often entertain fantasies of being with countless partners because sex is pleasurable and we’re creatures responsive to stimuli. The catch is, even with unlimited access to sexual partners, the desire for more persists.

So, what’s the motivation for an ERE-minded man to attract women? Is it for sex, to find love, or to fill a void? Having sex is straightforward - a visit to a massage parlor suffices. Finding love is challenging because it typically involves implicit or explicit agreements. Filling the void is an impossibility; we come into this world with our own broken pieces, and that emptiness will persist regardless of circumstances.

[7Wannabe5]

I don’t entirely agree with the ‘love yourself’ concept. It often brings to mind the self-centeredness found in some self-help books. To me, ‘loving yourself’ is a peculiar notion, akin to a form of narcissism. It’s akin to observing that person on Instagram who posts a thousand selfies - deep down, you sense something isn’t quite right.

LOL. Let me give you an example of what I mean using the simple model of "love languages" and modest practices frugal folk can easily afford themselves.

1) Acts of Service: I make myself a nice cup of tea.
2) Physical Touch: I gently brush my hair and put it in a neat braid.
3) Quality Time: I reflect on my day in my journal or paint.
4) Words of Affirmation: I make the effort to replace negative internal messaging with positive. Go me!
5) Gifts: I plant tulips in my garden and look forward to the spring.

However, I would also note it is also healthy to attempt to fulfill your love language quota through a variety of relationship other than one that is primary or those that are sexual. I find a good deal of fulfillment through family, friends, and community. It's also the case that I find little difficulty in finding fulfillment for my love languages in polyamorous context. For instance, two of my three partners would happily provide if I requested a cuddle-sans-sex and the one who just isn't cuddly frequently offers to care for me in other ways. IOW, my relationships are warm even though I prefer a set of very long ropes rather than a tight yoking at this juncture of my life. MMV!!

In my view, love carries a formidable aspect. It’s a choice, a commitment to stand by someone, regardless of what transpires with them. For instance, love is a mother visiting her son in prison, even though he’s been convicted as a serial killer. Love is the homeless that stays with the dog on the street (or vice versa). Love is rising in the morning to be with your friend who’s battling cancer. Love is mustering the strength to face the day, knowing you have a daughter to provide for.

In many cases, people enter contracts where they pledge to love someone until certain conditions change - youth fades, financial situations fluctuate, status or jobs are lost, health declines, weight is gained, and so on. The rising divorce rates can shed light on why these contracts often come to an end. True, unconditional love is possible, but it also implies that the person you love could, theoretically, be replaced by anyone else.

Yes, loving can often be a formidable task. The other problem with manifesting "unconditional love" in a relationship freely formed between two adults is that in maintaining any contract you hold two forms of responsibility; fulfillment of your end of the contract and enforcement of the other end of the contract. In a true Traditional Western Marriage, the contract is also made before God and your religious community. IOW, a "vow" is what you make in Traditopmal context, a "contract" is what you make in Modern context. A "contract" is also what you make in Islamic context, because marriage is not a sacrament within the religion. Therefore, in both Islamic marriage and Modern Marriage, the possibility of divorce is inherent in contract. IOW, divorce is the nth degree means through which you may exhibit the authority and responsibility of enforcing the other end of the contract. IOW, it's somewhat akin to the option of evicting a tenant who has not fulfilled their end of contract. The problem is that most Modern Marriages have very murky, covert contract, so valid boundary for divorce is highly debatable, and often subject to third-party opinion, which can promote "villainization" of an ex in a way that wouldn't be applied to a tenant who didn't pay his rent.

[Sclass]

@sclass - I don't think the Rajneeshees were too concerned about ages of consent either. The wild wild west documentary was good but didn't address the likely widespread instances of underage sex and likely exploitative relationships going on (although perhaps it was no worse than wider society)

Like a lot of these guys (Keith Raniere comes to mind) there is abuse. Opening up free love meant opening up your family members as well. This kind of thing can get ugly.

@ertyu I couldn’t help but notice all the skills you listed are ones studied in solitary and improved upon using self study. This is very different from love play. I remember kids trying to learn how to kiss with a mirror when young. Things don’t work that way. It isn’t just the wrong skills it’s the wrong approach to practice. The entire mindset is wrong if you think you’re going get better the same way you’ll get better with power lifting or sewing. Unless you join a quilting bee.

@7. Yes! Practice practice practice. I learned how to strike up conversations with strangers in pretty young. I made a game out of it after my brother told me I didn’t have the balls to talk to this girl we were admiring. It was hard at first but after about a hundred pickups I got the dance down. My best friend always remarked at how brave I was just asking random gals about the weather. “WTH were you talking about for so long?” The honest truth I was terrified but I channeled that energy into smiling, chit chat, jokes and laughing. You see the same hidden fear in standup comics as they blast through their insecurities. So yeah I also strongly recommend learning by doing. Practice.

ETA - another memory flashback. As a teenager taking a summer job in door to door sales went very far towards learning how to hold perfect strangers in the grasp of your words. It’s do or die. You have twenty seconds to get them before they say no thanks and slam the door. After what felt like 100 no thankyous I started adjusting my style. I had nothing to loose. I was striking out 100% of the time. What I picked up was you have to fine tune your approach based on cues you’re being fed real time. After a lot of door bells you get half a dozen scripts that you can smoothly shift between when you see the eyes narrowing, lips thinning and the door closing. Practice practice practice and don’t forget to smile. My “handler” just told me to give it time and I’ll be closing like the leaders. I don’t recall him really training me with a pitch but he did say just do and say what comes naturally over time. I kind of took it for granted but when I think of it this summer helped me do cold self introductions by the time I hit college. It’s a mix of theater, con and hypnosis all balled into one.

Yeah…this is all coming back. I never was able to close everyone. There is a lot of variability in door to door sales marks. What I did learn how to do is quickly identify the type of customer my particular pitch style would work on. I had a “type” so to speak. There were enough of those slam dunks to make my numbers. The real closers in the group could close nearly everyone.

[ertyu]

@ertyu I couldn’t help but notice all the skills you listed are ones studied in solitary and improved upon using self study. This is very different from love play. I remember kids trying to learn how to kiss with a mirror when young. Things don’t work that way. It isn’t just the wrong skills it’s the wrong approach to practice. The entire mindset is wrong if you think you’re going get better the same way you’ll get better with power lifting or sewing. Unless you join a quilting bee.

oof, called out haha. Absolutely valid, too. I do have a tendency to isolate and think the only thing between me and Personal Perfection is the intensity of my navelgazing. Like if I only navel-gazed "enough" I'll be OK and it'll all be fine. .... Yeah

[sky]

If you have not yet reached perfection, gaze more intently.

[ertyu]

yall will see when i emerge from my coccoon fully formed

[Toska2]

This is my anecdote of a conversation with my aunt.

Aunt : You should date more.
Toska2 : I should date less.
Aunt : It's easy. You ask women out. Many say no, some say yes. Go out with the ones who say yes.
Toska2: I haven't had that much success.
Aunt : Maybe you're a lazy, idiot or a loser.
Toska2 : If I was a lazy, idiot or a loser dating would be futile, and I should improve myself more. See, you agree that I should date less.
Aunt : ........


The aunt hasn't spoken to me in 7 years now. Her words and action are the embodiment of fears of mine, a veiled ultimatum, total lack of understanding despite decades of interaction and misplaced empathy.

[Henry]

This is my anecdote of a conversation with my aunt.

Aunt : You should date more.
Toska2 : I should date less.
Aunt : It's easy. You ask women out. Many say no, some say yes. Go out with the ones who say yes.
Toska2: I haven't had that much success.
Aunt : Maybe you're a lazy, idiot or a loser.
Toska2 : If I was a lazy, idiot or a loser dating would be futile, and I should improve myself more. See, you agree that I should date less.
Aunt : ........


The aunt hasn't spoken to me in 7 years now. Her words and action are the embodiment of fears of mine, a veiled ultimatum, total lack of understanding despite decades of interaction and misplaced empathy.

Your mastery of the Socratic method is admirable, but did you ever consider that your Aunt's reaction might provide insight into your dating issues?

[7Wannabe5]

@Toska2:

Well, there are a lot of things wrong with that conversation that would apply no matter what activity/goal/value was being discussed. For instance, you could substitute "participate in fitness/sports activities" for "date." What tends towards making it toxic is that you weren't asking for help or advice, the use of "should" in her directive, and the assignation of fault to innate character as opposed to behavior or wider field of influence; you are a loser vs. that game was lost.

What if the dysfunctional conversation had gone more like:

Aunt: I see that you didn't bring a date to our mutual relative's wedding. Good for you!

Toska2: Thanks (I guess.)

Aunt: You should focus your energies in realms where you are more likely to be successful.

Toska2: (?!)

Aunt: Also, the whole human mating dance is so superficial and arbitrary in the grand scheme of things. Sometimes I think about how a male of the species might be motivated to buy me dinner just because I have these two large deposits of fat on my chest, and it just seems kind of surreal and meaningless compared to problems related to global climate change or functional illiteracy.

Toska2: (Why was I assigned to this table?)

Aunt: I just read this very good book on the topic of discrimination against single people in our society. We're discussing it in my Knit and Bitch book group. Let me write down the title for you.

Toska2: Uh, thanks. (Turns to unknown young female who also looks like she wishes she could escape.) Would you like to dance?

[ertyu]

starring 7w5 as Aunt